Eddie Brill

Welcome once again to another episode of the Letterman podcast. I am Mike Chisholm. I am excited to be here. I hope you're not annoyed with me saying that because I'm going to be every single time I do one of these episodes. Um, I love talking to all of the folks uh, who were associated with the show, people who have been impacted by the show as I was and uh, it's just really cool to see uh, this community growing. It's really kind of almost I keep telling myself it's serendipitous that this community uh, that we're building is growing uh, but also it's kind of crazy to watch Dave putting out new content. The day that we filmed this um, this this episode uh, Dave just put out a random uh, talking head thing with Mary. I don't even think they were bringing up a clip, but it's just so cool to see Dave throwing out new stuff. Uh, get to go see him next week in LA. I'm very excited about that. It's uh, it's good time to be a Letterman fan and and really we haven't really I mean my my next guest is kind of like teases. It's been uh, we haven't really been saying it's a good time to be a Letterman fan because of new content for a long time.

So it's uh, it is a good time to be a David Letterman enthusiast uh, and talk to people who were associated with the show. Today we have a mammoth of a guest. I'm not just saying that because he looked good in a big suit and you just wanted to you know, I always thought Eddie Brill was a security guy when I would watch him. Uh, you know, the camera would always cut to him. He'd be on the show so many times. So many impressions of Eddie Brill in my head even before I knew who he was. Um, you'd see him uh, when when when it would cut over to Alan or to uh, the podium you'd see Eddie Brill standing there in a big suit and I always thought oh, that guy's security. Holy smokes don't want to mess with that dude. Turns out Eddie Brill is actually um, a stand-up who I'm going to I'm going to put words in his mouth, had one of the most unique things a stand-up could ever have as he was hired on for well over a decade, 15 years plus, the warm-up comedian for the Late Show with David Letterman.

Um, what a crazy job that is. And then also a booker for the show, but has done a lot of things outside of that as well, but it's hard not to get typecast when that is the role that you have. Uh, Eddie Brill, thank you for taking time out of your day to show up here on the Letterman podcast. I can't tell you how grateful I am that you're here. Oh, no, it's my pleasure. It's nice to meet you. It's nice to uh know, first of all, I you know, that you're a hockey fan, automatically that works in my favor. And uh well, our favor. And uh but yeah, no, it's it's really nice, you know, you know, I was at the show for 17 years. I had many jobs. It was a dream come true and I still look at it as a dream come true and like every once in a while I'd be on the you know, at the desk with the I'd look down and go, "Oh my god, that's David Letterman." You know, it'd just be even though I worked there for so long, it still was so cool to be there. And uh I was very proud of all the work we did there and the stuff I got to be part of and the people I got to meet and you know, I'm so happy and and the the crew and the staff were still friends all these years and we all get together for for meals and hangouts and keep in touch with each other. We're family, so it it was beautiful, yeah.

I uh I I appreciate that. We're going to get to the Letterman stuff cuz I mean and and I'll tell you this straight up, we're looking for folks who work for the show that want to be part of this community and will come back and come back and come back. The fact that you're a stand-up and I can get you to come back so I can plug dates. I'm very excited about that. Uh and you know what's funny you would say that I look like a security person. Arsenio uh Hall came on the show and he looked and he said, "Are you working security for for this?" Cuz you know, I used to dress up in like sweaters and leather jackets for the warm-up, and they decided that everyone on the the stage was going to have to dress up, the band, I would call Jerry and myself, anyone who was going to be on that stage had to dress up. So, it was kind of fun because I got to buy suits and and ties, you know, I have all these ties that I haven't used since the show.

But I had, you know, it was kind of fun dressing up and uh you know, but that's what they wanted, you know, like even I remember I wore like a black suit and a black shirt and he was like, "Come on, Eddie, you know, you look like a mafia guy, you know, put just put put on a white shirt, you know, look you know, more a little bright." But I I live in the East Village in Manhattan, I've lived here most of my life, and black is the school colors, you know, so I would wear mostly black. But uh Dave changed that. And in fact, there was a segment once that said, "What's Eddie Brill wearing today?" And then they had me in a brand I was dressed up in a brand new suit. I had got lost all this weight and looked, you know, the best I had in years. And it was, you know, there there was a lot of joking about that. But yeah, I sat on the side I stood on the side and uh you know, luckily I didn't have to be security.

Well, it just um I love hearing that. I love I I love hearing the fact that you were part of the aesthetic as to what Dave wanted on the stage and and um but I want to get to you we're going to get to this, but this is your first episode on the Letterman podcast. And so, um I want to talk about the fact you grew up in New York, you're a New York comic. I know you spent some time in Boston, too, but you're a New York comic, born and raised, right? Yeah, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, and I moved to Hollywood, Florida when I was a just before my 12th birthday. I went to junior high school and high school down there, which which the opposite of Manhattan and Brooklyn. It was, you know, very beach-like, and I loved it. It was good. I have a lot of friends who still from there, and and so, you know, growing I love sports, and I love playing basketball. So, you know, it was Florida was really great for me because I was outdoors every day and playing sports and jumping in the ocean and playing paddle ball on the beach in Hollywood, and you know, it was uh it was a pretty good lifestyle, but I went to college in Boston cuz my uncle taught up in Massachusetts and recommended this college to me where I met all my incredible funny friends.

Yep. And at Emerson, and uh what's interesting about Emerson um is that Lori Diamond, Dave's assistant, went to Emerson, and Michael Goldsmith, who also was a freshman with me in college, he worked at the show on the on the crew. Unfortunately, Michael had passed away while he was working there. Mhm. But he um but it was kind of like it was kind of nice that these Emerson people were there, and they made me more comfortable as if you know, as opposed to not if I didn't know anyone. And I knew some people, but I didn't know them well. But Lori really helped me to get closer to Dave um and it was mainly because of our Emerson connection, which is really nice. That's fascinating, and I I uh the idea that you were part of So, would you consider yourself like cuz Boston had a crazy comedy scene, um and and and and I think it sounds like you hit it. Did you come up with like Steven Wright and those guys? Well, yeah, Steven uh and Dennis Leary uh you know, we were all in college together.

And um you know, at Emerson, and then Mario Cantone came in and Bill Burr, and I mean, the list goes on and on and on of all all the Emerson people. And before us it was Andrea Martin and Jay Leno and Henry Winkler and Norman Lear and Bill Dana. And then after us it was, you know, just on and on and on. Jennifer Coolidge and Kevin Rogan's Rogan's a Boston comic. I met Rogan when he was a skinny little kid. We were on the softball team together. I played first base, he played second. He was a skinny and we laughed, we were dancing around while we were playing and we didn't take things too seriously. I always liked him. We always got along very well. Okay, so here's a little rabbit hole we can go down right now cuz I know you're a big Carson guy. You you you you had a Carson tribute comedy show that you did for years and years and years. The fact that you have that um you have that appreciation for him and and then you played on softball with with with Joe Rogan. There are many right now who would say that Joe Rogan in many ways is today's Johnny Carson.

When you look at the size of his audience and the fact that there's a Rogan bump. Like we've had guests on my on my other podcast, my men's mental wellness podcast, guests who have been guests on the Rogan podcast who experienced the Rogan bump. Like there are comics with one appearance on that show that their career gets made. Sound familiar, right? Yeah, it does happen. You know, I was at the Ice House in with my son who's comedian, Daniel. And the two of us were going to the Ice House. I think I was doing a set. I was I was doing the Ice House. They had asked me they asked me if if I did a set, would I look at some of their comics for the Letterman show. Sure. So as we went over there, my son had noticed that Rogan was recording there doing a recording and I said, "Oh." And I went in there and I said, "Hey Rogan." You know, on the break and he went, "Hey, sit in with me." And I was only in there for like 10 minutes, you know, cuz I had to run and do this showcase. Yeah. But we we mostly talked about Austin, Texas and how we love Margie Coyle cuz she ran the Cap City Comedy Club and it was a quick discussion, but it was just nice to talk to an an friend and uh and I did get you know thousands of people who wrote to me and said, "Wow, we heard you on Rogan."

It wasn't like I was a guest. I just jumped in and sat down for 10 minutes, 8 minutes, something like that. Okay, well, I'll tell you I'll tell you this straight up. Rogan's building a comedy comedy room in in Austin right now. Yeah. And and he's going to he's going to take the scene out of LA and he's going to really transplant it and and I think he's he's trying to make his mark by building his his version of the Comedy Store. If ever you get a gig there, you let me know. I will fly down to see that to see you in that room. That'd be that that that'd be so cool. I love I love the camaraderie that comics have and and it's like the own little little culture. Now, that being said, you were you you alluded to it already. So, let's let's let's go down that road a little bit. Comedy Booker for Letterman. Yeah. It was interesting because you know, it it changes your life.

It all of a sudden you have you know, you're a comic and you're traveling and you have comedian friends and now all of a sudden you have this job where you have to you know, of course take it seriously, which I did and you know, know what the job meant and have to you know, I couldn't go outside the parameters of what the job was and I have thousands of people calling me and writing me and sending me tapes and friends of friends sending me stuff. And I can only put less than 1% of them on television. So, it was weird.

You know, in retrospect, there's part of me that wish I didn't book the show and that I worked on my own comedy career because I spent 11 of the 17 years at Letterman booking the comics and I had given up a lot of my own comedy life because I was working with other comics. So, part of me loved it love giving opportunities to comedians, but it was also very hard for me to it's funny that I seen the pencil with the two erasers. I have one here. I have one around here somewhere. this thing, man. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um but yeah, I kind of like think, you know, well, you know, I was having around in the night early late '80s early '90s, I was going to London a lot and spent a lot of time in Ireland and London working and having a good career. And then the Letterman booking thing made me me spend a lot of my career helping others, which I always loved to do. Yeah. But in reality, if I look back, you know, it's saying if I could choose it again, I would probably have just chosen to just been a comic who worked on my own career. You know, I don't regret it. I I I have I I was able to help a lot of people whether they were on television or not. I was you know, helping a lot of young men and women who were writing to me and I was said, "Look, I don't care if you're not right for the show, send me your stuff.

You have something going. I think you have a career ahead of you." And uh you know, and people like Hannibal Buress and Kumail Nanjiani and you know, uh a lot of people, Bill Burr early in his career. I was, you know, getting these people on television and it was really a nice thing to be able to do. And you know, there's you know, 50, 60 other comics probably that I was able to help during that time. So, it was great, but it was interesting because as the warm-up of Letterman, I did the warm-up and when the show was over, I'm out of there going to do my stand-up, traveling the world on weekends. We had 3-day weekends. But once I was the booker, wherever I went, comics, even friends of mine, got a little nervous around me because Yep. you know, they were like and I'm like, "Don't be nervous. It's me. It's still me. I'm here. I'm fighting for us behind the scenes. I promise you. It's not an easy job, you know, and uh yeah, it was interesting. There was a guy recently who's kind of famous who said who um I asked him if he wanted to do this really cool show next month, May of 2022.

And he I called him, he didn't call me back, I called him again, he didn't call me back. And I called him and said, "Is everything okay?" And he said, "Oh, I you know, you didn't book me on Letterman back in the day and you thought I was a hack and you thought I was, you know, not really good enough." And I go, "Not at all. I thought you were hilarious." And I, you know, I never thought you were hack, I never called you a hack. I think you're a fantastic comedian. And will you do this gig for me in May? And he he apologized and he said, "Yes." There was a there's a a famous agent who called me and said, "What happened? You we used to be so close and you're not using any of my clients to book on Letterman." I go, "I don't know who your clients are. I don't book the Letterman show based on who the agent or manager is. I book it on the comedian and if they fit the show and it was right." So, there was, you know, I loved the warm-up. I I I, you know, I worked my ass off making sure that happened. And every commercial break in the Letterman show, I got to go to the desk, whether it was to have a discussion with Dave, talk about the Beatles, talk about sports, talk about the next segment, um come up with questions and ideas for other segments.

It was always amazing for me to be part of that. And to have his ear during that. But as far as the booking was concerned, there's there's a little bit of regret, but I did it and I'm happy that I in in the long run that I had this, you know, part of I had a show that I respect with all my heart, I was able to have a part in it. This is my life. You have done a phenomenal job. Like we didn't do a pre-interview because I think they're bunk. We talked about that a little bit, how we both kind of feel that way. You've gone through three different areas here that I do want to get into, whether we get into them all today or not. You know, the first one is is is a quick one, I think we can we can kind of move away from. The second one is one that I really want to pick your brain about. That's about clean comedy and the and the debate between the two types of comedy blue versus clean. But the first one is this and then the third one we'll get to after and then we still got to talk hockey. By the way, I hope you don't hold it against me. I'm a gigantic Los Angeles Kings fan like gigantic since I was a kid.

I was before the pandemic the Kings were in town playing the Rangers and they came the whole team came to the show at Carolines. And it was a thrill for me because I knew all of them because I know the teams and I'm a hockey fanatic and I was doing hockey material and ad-libbing and ended up getting the phone numbers of you know, like the assistant coaches and the and you know, some people on the team so now I have this you know, in when I go to LA to go to to see the Kings play. Yeah. You know, Luke Robitaille who's you know, number 20 from My man. there was a Ranger and you know, it's like so I'm a New York Ranger fan. I grew up in New York. I 1969-70 the Mets won the World Series on my birthday. I went to the Knicks championship seventh game. The Rangers made it to the Stanley Cup quarterfinals. And um the Jets won the Super Bowl. So as a little boy that you know, those would solidified my teams. I love hockey. I I can't believe that I have to wait another night before the Rangers play Carolina but so be it, you know, there's a game tomorrow night and I wish it was tonight. Well, that's why I thought you were going to hold it against me cuz in you and I both we both know what curses are like.

The curse of the Rangers was was was so long. You got you got it as a as a younger fan in 94. You got that release and that relief and if your team hasn't won the Stanley Cup the release and the relief is every bit as good as you ever would think it is by the way. It's the greatest. You still catching checks on that 94 win right now. Oh so so so much so and then you know, but when the Kings were playing the Rangers in the finals, I was 2014. I was working in San Diego with the Comedy Store with my son. So, we're watching the game on TV, not looking at the each other on stage. And when the when the they were done with the whoever was on stage was done with their set, we had to go on during the game. It was like, "No!" You know, we don't want to miss this, but, you know, I got to see most of the action except for the 40 45 minutes I was on stage. But, yeah, I you know, I don't hold You know, there's very few teams I don't like in hockey. Like there's a lot of teams I like.

I worked for the Red Wings. I worked for the Bruins. I worked, you know, Dave Strader, uh who was the announcer for the Red Wings and eventually the announcer for the NHL, we met at a gig I was doing in the Cayman Islands. We became best friends. He got me involved with the Red Wing team. I went to this party. I said he sat me down in this chair. And Mike Babcock was a rookie on one side and Steve Yzerman was on the other side. And I ended up working for them and raising money for the Children's Hospital. I went to Vegas to do a gig a TV show with Robert Schimmel. And it was the year that uh the Red Wings were the best team in hockey, but they lost to the San Jose Sharks and it on a fluke goal in this thing. And all of a sudden, they show up at the the hotel. I get all the whole team into the taping. And then, it was just a week of frolicking and craziness with these incredible hockey players.

I became really great friends with Steve Chaisson, who unfortunately lost his life at an early time. But, I was really close. It was, you know, like you it was almost like like I'm friends with Dick Cavett, which is a very bizarre.

Like and I got involved because of Johnny Carson. Dick used to work for Johnny. He's from Nebraska. We ran this comedy festival. we had Dick involved, and we didn't have Dick involved, we had Dick Cavett involved. Dick came on on the on the thing, and we became instant friends. It's very surreal, the people I've met in my life, you know, I never take it for granted um that that those kind of things happen. And the same thing in hockey, you know, uh I see Yzerman, you know, even though he's a general manager now, we hung out, we all we spent time together, we, you know, it's like a little boy's dream come true to get together with the stars of the sport you love and and hang out with them and raise money for kids, and you see how wonderful these people are because no matter how tough they are on the ice, their hockey happens to be the one sport of and of the others, too, but the one that I I've been involved with mostly raising money.

I helped with the beginning with the Hockey in Harlem program with the Rangers, um the Bruins, and the Cam Neely Cancer Foundation. So, you know, it's I can go on and on, but I don't even know if we started the this conversation. It was a hockey thing. Oh, no, no, no, absolutely. And what what day one day I'll tell you my story. I was supposed to be at game five of the LA New York Ranger, but I was seeing that guy, I was seeing Rogan, and I've actually got a picture of Rogan holding, he doesn't even understand why.

I've got a picture of me and Rogan, he's holding an LA Kings puck while I'm wearing my I got a Dustin Brown jersey I was wearing from that night, cuz I was supposed to be down there, but instead I was seeing Joe Rogan, you know, but but to go on to what you just said, the blessings in life, I too have been blessed with a lot of very cool, surreal type experiences where the people around me who grew up with me, who I'm still friends with, kind of look at me and go, "I can't believe you've had happen what has had happen in your life." You are that statement on steroids, and I want to go back to that first topic.

I I about Paul Shaffer in the band. And I think, okay, you're a musician and you're a top-tier musician, a really good one. Could be studio, loves to perform though. And suddenly getting a gig that for some of those guys, like think about Will, a 30-year gig. Yeah. And and and as a comic, uh it's kind of the same thing. You alluded to this earlier. Um as a comic, you got plucked from the road, plucked from the uh from from from all of the culture of what stand-up comedy is in many ways. I know you still perform, you still travel, you still do your thing you thing. But working for the Late Show 17 years, uh not just as a comic but with other duties as well, that's a hungry beast and your act of course is going to is is going to suffer from that. But it's the gig that you know, you're playing the same room for 17 years, you know that your your your your certainty is the same. All of these things are lined up that virtually no comic gets to enjoy. Uh what a unique place in history that is. Yeah, well, you know, it's it's really who you know.

And it's the luck of where you're at. I was, you know, I warmed up a few other shows in history and some were big and one of the biggest ones was the Dana Carvey Show, which didn't last very long. It was awesome though. Yeah, it was a brilliant show. It was just one of Carvey Show. Yeah, it was pretty good. And uh and it was interesting because, you know, uh Robert Smigel was one of the producers and Louis C.K. was one of the producers and Steve Carell and Colbert and I mean just a you know, just all these top-notch creative people working together. And when the show went down, Louis went to work at Letterman as a writer. And then Dave was looking for new warm-up and they asked Louis, they said, "Who would you recommend?" He said, "Well, Eddie Brill did Cart Dana Carvey and he was great, and you should get him. So, because of the that connection, um I was able to have a, you know, a 6-week trial period that turned into 17 years. I, you know, met Dave, um once before for a minute in uh when I was in LA at the Comedy Store.

Mitchell Walters introduced us together. So, I said, "Yeah, Dave, I was a regular at the Comedy Store, and Mitzi used to compare us a lot, not as comics, but the kind of person that they wanted to put on the show early on as like a host type, someone who comes out and gets the audience going right away." And um it really helped. It, you know, it helped that I that I was recommended by the other comics that were working at the show, and it also helped that that we shared the love of Mitzi Shore, Pauly's mom, who treated Dave and I, and my son, who's a comedian, Dan, treated us as family. And so, all of that concoction turned out to be the great brew that got me over there, and 6 weeks turned into 17 years, which was beautiful. And I got to do other things, like if Alan Coulter was not there, often times I got to do the opening announcement, which was great. And it was overwhelming because it was you hear the band playing that song, and the audience is applauding.

The very first time I did it, I had to redo it later at after the show was recorded because there was a I was so excited, and my voice it sounded like I was 12. So, I had to go down and re-record into the studio and re-record the "From New York, the greatest city in the world." You know, that whole thing. Oh, yeah. And that was a thrill for me, and I got to do skits, and you know, it was just it was a, you know, it was a dream come true, and I'm glad that it came true, you know. So, the trade-off of um maybe not being able to hone the act and go on the road and do all those things you're talking about. The things that you I love the fact that it's always in the eye of the beholder. And the fact that you can say, "You know what? If I were to do it again, I would love the experience of I I love that you're so vulnerable enough to say that." That's fantastic. That being said, the trade-off is all of the cool one-off stuff you got to do because of that.

But, I want to go back to your act for a second.

Um you know, there's a saying out there in the business world, you don't say new things to old people, you say old things to new people. And and you got a chance to do that every night. So, you got to work on your your act for the for the audience. Did it change very much over the years? Yeah, it changed a few times, but not a lot because we had something down that worked like a science that as what I understand Dave was taught by the producers of the Johnny Carson show how to create a pre-show. You know, not let the audience sit there forever. I mean, the doors would open at 5:00 00 like clockwork. And at 5:12:00, the warm-up would start. And at 5:30:00, the show would start recording. You know, there was no like 5:30:01. It was down to the science. The audience was seated The audience were in, you know, seated and ready to go at in 12 minutes. And it's 492 people.

Now, just backing it up a little bit, I still worked the whole time as a stand-up all over the world despite the fact that, you know, I'm partially to blame or mostly to blame for not always writing a new act, but I was so focused on helping other comedians that I just did what I did and you know, like so, the truth is is I could have still written new stuff, but I was so focused on other people's stuff that I didn't really spend the time writing new a lot of new stuff for myself. So, I did what worked and you know, and that kind of worked against me because Well, yeah, but you had a lot of spinning plates though, man. But now I'm in this part of my life, but now that the Letterman show is over, I am writing new stuff. I am right even during the pandemic I've written so much new material and it's just flowing out like a river.

But the warm-up we had 5 minutes of video, 5 minutes of me, 5 minutes of the band and 3 minutes of Dave. 18 minutes down to a science. We the band played the same songs. I did the same routine mostly until I changed it like say 6 months down the line because we knew what worked. And I was able to tell Dave what the audience was like based on the audience's reaction to the warm-up and the music. And he would send his one of his assistants down and I would give them the signal. It's a great audience. It's good, you know, they they suck, you know. Yeah. They, know, all the different whatever signal I had to give her while the band was playing or, you know, one of the the people and so Dave knew in advance what the audience was like and that was good for every comic wants to know what the audience is like and Dave was no different and he was able to, you know, I guess it helped him be, you know, with the warm-up by knowing what the audience was like based on what I had sensed.

Then I'd say 98% of the time I knew the audience pretty well. Every once in a while you'd be fooled by them, but very rarely. So, great question about about that in the sense of did you watch Dave on the fly cuz one of the things that the admirers of Dave love is how clever and how quick he is. Would you basically give him you know, the playbook of what what to expect tonight for the audience and could you see him then kind of lean into that and and adjust his performance that night, whether he would get them involved more, whether he would do things based on how the the temperament of the audience was? I don't, you know, I didn't talk to him. I only made a signal to his associate. Sure. So, he would come down knowing what to expect and that definitely helped him to prepare for how he was going to pull it off. It was up to him if he was in a mood to, you know, um to turn it around and get, you know, if the audience was not great and to take it up a notch.

You know, he's a pro, with the pros pro and he was able to do that. And there are some nights where, you know, he wasn't happy that the crowd wasn't great and then he he would just like, you know, just he wouldn't try to, you know, like [ __ ] them, you know, kind of attitude. You know, but that was very rare. It, you know, the audience were mostly fantastic. The audience were really excited to be there and they weren't tired because they, you know, they they were in there and boom, the show started, boom, it was over. They had a great experience and they're in and out.

So, they really did have a good time. You know, the the interesting thing is that a lot of those audiences were mostly from out of town and a lot of people from other countries because this is like a an E ticket at Disney World for these people. They're going to go to the Empire State Building, going to go to Times Square, they're going to go to the David Letterman Show. I mean, this were all part of the thing and this wasn't always Dave Letterman fans or people who spoke English as their first language. You know, it it was interesting. One of the times I was on stage and Dave, I think Eli Manning was his plane was delayed because of the weather and they asked me to put a set together and while the show was being recorded, they said, "We can you put a set together?" So, I went backstage, I put a set together and I didn't have an opening joke cuz in stand-up on television, you only get 4 and 1/2 minutes and you need a quick joke. Like, I am, know, my um my grandmother told me the truth will set you free and she went to prison for perjury. Boom, you know, you just those are the kind of jokes you start up with to let the audience know that you're funny, you're going to be funny, they don't have to worry, you know, that kind of thing.

So, I didn't have one for this set. I couldn't think of one, but I had written something at home that I thought was really funny. Uh based on New York subway stations. There's two major train stations in New York, Grand Central and Penn Station. And there's a very famous line, you know, it's like Grand Central Station in there, which means it's crowded. So, I wrote a joke. I said, you know, the other day I was in Penn Station. It was so crowded, it was like Grand Central Station in there. Now, to New Yorkers, that's a funny joke, but the people from other countries, they have no idea what I'm talking about. I did that joke forgetting that the audience was mostly out of towners, 99% out of towners and 20% people from countries that didn't even speak English and the audience didn't get it. The only laugh I got was from Bruce Kapler, who was the sax player. He laughed because it just sat there and bombed and at the end of the set, Letterman went up to me said, how did you think that went? You know, we were all family and we're giving each other [ __ ] you know, when that happened. Yep. The set worked, but that [ __ ] it took me a little bit of time to get them.

Uh you did 11, I think 11 shots on on on 10 shots on Late Show? Yeah. I I mean, that's that's that's crazy in itself, the fact that you got to do uh your act on national television also. Like you're the warm-up guy for the Letterman, but you also got to do 10 shots as a as as a comic. So, it's almost like what you gave up was still given back to you in in in that experience. I mean, holy smokes, what a cool And I always wrote a brand new set for the for the every time I did the show as a guest. I always wrote a new set. The very first set I had older jokes, but I I had written always written new stuff for for each appearance. It was just a challenge for me to write new stuff and to create it for the show. And it was really fun to be able to do that. And I had, you know, pretty good sets. I was proud of it. And I had booked I had been on the show many times before I was booking it. Then when I started booking it, I didn't do it that much because I felt really weird, like I can't give these people spots when I'm going to put myself on.

Yep. But even though I put myself on, I didn't I had to get approved by the show. I had to get the material approved by the producers. I had to get my material approved approved from standards and practices, you know. Sure. And then I didn't do the show for like 6 years as the I was booking it. And Dave said, "How come you're not on the show?" I go, "Because I'm booking it." He says, "I'm booking it." He says, "You work here. Do the show. Do Be on the show." And I went, "Okay." And then I was Yeah. Stealing the approval from the man. There you go. Yeah. Um but were there any of your appearances A lot of comedians were like, you know, you're doing the show. You know, of course you're doing the show. You're booking it. And I'm like, "It's not what you think." Well, that's sour grapes. And and uh and and I mean, they would take the same opportunity. Any any comic would take the same opportunity, especially if if given the gold seal. Um I think about the time when uh like were there any of your appearances ever oh, we got to cover for something here.

Yeah, throw Eddie up. Like I think about Bill Scheft um and how he went up once when when when the stuff with Bill Hicks happened. And it's like, "Okay, let's throw let's throw Bill up there." Um did that ever happen to you or were all of your appearances that one time. Only that one time when I was on the set. The other nine were all planned Yep. and ready to go and and ready to do it and But I had, you know, Brian Kiley, who's a great comedy writer, um grew up with Conan O'Brien, wrote for Conan O'Brien, moved to LA when Conan moved to LA. Yep. Um he worked at Conan down the street from us when we were in New York together, Conan and Letterman. And Brian, brilliant comedian, a lot of one-liners, and he was perfect for the show and one of Dave's favorite comics. So, Brian and I would have a set ready. So, if someone didn't show up, I just called Brian on the phone. He had a suit and tie hanging in his office all freshly pressed, and he would run over to the show from Conan, and that I you know, we he would do the show and he would of course crush because we had the set worked out in advance. Yep.

a couple of times. Marc Maron was another one who I would use last minute. We would have sets ready to go um, in case uh, in case Brian had recently done the show and we had another last minute kind of a thing, you know. Marc Maron, another Boston comic, right? Um, yeah, well, he didn't start in Boston. He's not from Boston, but I remember in the early days we all worked in like I'm not from Boston, but I went to college there Yeah. and I started doing stand-up there. I started an improv and sketch at college, and then I started doing stand-up because my friends were doing it, and then I quit uh, for a long time until I moved When I moved back to New York, I had the opportunity to run a comedy club in the village called the Boston Comedy Club. It was It was called the Paper Moon. And in 1984, I started running it. In 1988, I gave it to the guy who made it the Boston Comedy Club, changed the name. And so, it kind of has a long, long history and I was there at We you know, Colin Quinn and I were sort of there at the beginning. Adam Sandler went to NYU down the street. Susie Essman, you know, a bunch of us were all young comics and we you know, Mario Cantone, and we all were working out of this comedy club.

It was a It was a really good time and we all looked out for each other and we still do. Uh, Eddie, the career you've had is is it's unique. And And something isn't really unique or so it's just unique. It is wow. Um, you've had such a breadth of experience when it comes to comedy and those of us who love comedy, I mean, I think any of us would would want to trade places to have to know what it feels like to have the experiences that you've had. Um, I want to talk about clean comedy versus blue comedy. All right, yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, this is again, we're we're we're I'm going to ask you all again. It's a very important uh category because clean comedy doesn't mean good comedy. Clean comedy doesn't you know, like if you do television and you're doing the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, your set was it wasn't about being clean, it was about being smart. And that's the big difference. You know, Letterman and Carson love smart comics. Smart and silly would be the the category I would put them in. And you know, you could do a clean set and it's just milk toast and you would never get on Letterman or uh Carson with those kind of sets. You know, there was an edge and edgy doesn't mean dirty. Edgy doesn't mean you use certain kind of language. Edgy means you have an edge to you. Edgy means you're very smart.

Like Richard Pryor did, you know, the Tom Jones Show, which was a uh incredible show where he broke a lot of people like, you know, Curtis Mayfield and, you know, Janis Joplin and all these kind of comedians and the singers who weren't getting in on the regular shows because they were known to be controversial or or society wasn't really, you know, to be open-minded about other human beings, you know, they were taught poorly. And, you know, so I would say that Pryor when he did the Tom Jones Show or when he did the Ed Sullivan Show, he would did the material that was, you know, ripe for network television, but I wouldn't say that it was clean. I would say it was smart. So, you know, a lot of people say, "Well, you know, you got to have clean comedy." Well, you know, you don't have to be clean. You have you know, if you talk about politics and religion or you know, anything that is kind of a little bit shakes people up, they don't consider that clean comedy, which is a mistake. You know, it's you know, people think edgy means dirty and that clean means you know, it's safe for everybody.

But safe for everybody is not great, you know, to me. I mean, personally it's not my favorite kind of comedy. Safe for everybody is just like, you know, just being careful. It's just like, you know, the new Christy Minstrel Singers, you know, you're the you know, you're singing, you know, you're up with people, you know, that kind of stuff. From my childhood, you know, it was never really sexy or fun or smart or you know, soulful, you know. It's like the difference between Celine Dion and Nina Simone. You know, Celine Dion gets all the notes right. And she's painting by numbers, you know, and there's no real soul to it for me. But when Nina Simone sings, it's only soul. You know, and that's what I think of comics. I think of comics as being soulful and not being clean or dirty. I I really appreciate your your point of view on this and you have a very unique one. There's only a handful of guys and gals who have had the perspective based on on on on what you were looking for booking a major network television show, late night program.

And and the idea though, but when you look at like Coke and Pepsi, right? If you look at at at at at the offering of the Tonight Show during those years versus what you guys were doing. I love I think it was Bill Carter who who who brought this idea out that a lot of people would would compare what Leno was doing and no offense to anybody, you know, it's just they're very very different guys. Um, to to pop music. You know, and pop music goes out to the masses and all that stuff. Whereas you know, you got like a Michael Jackson. Whereas, David Letterman was like Pink Floyd or like Radiohead or or, you know, really that the cerebral, the complex stuff. And I love that you made that distinction. Um, you know, smart as opposed to clean. Now, that being said, you could see a Bill Burr on Letterman, for example, watch him smart, like smart beyond edgy, like what you're talking about. But then you go see him in the club and you're like, "Whoa!" Because then the the the you know, the the chains have been removed of of the shackles of of of standards and practices.

Um Right. Were there any comedians who couldn't get there that you wished could have gotten there? They couldn't take their act and translate it to want to mention any names. I, you know, there there there were comedians who I loved who we couldn't put on the show because it didn't fit the show. Like producers or whatever would say, "No, not for us." Or whatever. You know, I mostly knew what to do, but there were times when the show was like, "Huh?" You know. And uh they had it they turned someone down or whatever, and I wish they could have gotten on the show, and they didn't, and it's a shame, and uh but that's the way it is. It's not the Eddie Brill show, Yeah. Letterman show. So, I had a I had a book with what Dave wanted and had in mind. And, you know, and I know he appreciated these, you know, one-off one-of-a-kind comedians, like the Eddie Izzards and the uh a lot of the British and Irish comics that I had booked from Europe on the show.

Like Tommy Tiernan, you know, was amazing comic in Ireland, and he was one of the first Irish comics to really just hit Letterman and did Letterman like four times as the guest. Harry Hill was an incredible comedian who did this one bit where he was It was always It was ran you know, just fast, you know, rapid-fire, you know, comedy. And he would go, you know, "Here's helping a suit." And he'd go, "What do you think of the lining? It's the best material I got." And Letterman would laugh so hard at it. He would do that joke like every, you know, like as a homage to Harry Hill constantly. And if I was Harry Hill, I'd be thrilled that Letterman's using my stuff. And that happened to a lot of comedians where they would have like one line that I, you know, I remember Karen Rontowski did the show and she had this line that was like "I wear Santa Claus uh panties because I always know there'll be Christmas in my pants." Or something like that.

And you know, that's the kind of line that sticks with Dave, you know, forever. Like Tommy Johnigan had a line that Dave would say all the time.

Um Hugh Fink, this great comedy writer and comedian, he would do this thing about being a third base coach. And that was his skit. And he'd go "Come on, Bobby. Come on, Bobby." And he'd just go "All right, Bobby." Yeah. "Come on, Bobby." And then Dave would say that all the time. "Come on, Bobby." And no one would understand what it was what was being said. They didn't know it was a reference to, you know, something ages ago. But something that always made Dave laugh and that he kept doing that. Uh I think I think that there is a part of the community of folks who are in who would would consider themselves enthusiasts of uh what Dave and Co. And I always say Dave and Co. cuz it was all you guys. You created a culture there including the audience who, you know, Dave would only interact with this way here, but they got to be prepped for it. That was one You had a lot of plates that made that show work. So uh the fact that I think that a lot of enthusiasts who Dave and company um we would we love those inside jokes.

We're the ones that when you would go at the end of the show to the band, "Hey, those your drums?" Like the long joke, the thing that he would say over and over and over again over the years without any payoff and then suddenly there's some sort of payoff to it or or callback to it. And and I think uh you you were at the epicenter of that. Uh I just got to ask this This personal one here. Uh, did you ever cross paths with Mitch Hedberg? Yeah. Um, you know, I Joey Friedman, who's Bud Friedman's daughter, was working at the show before I was. In fact, she got me on the show. She had put me as a guest on the show and she had found a lot of comedians like Jim Gaffigan and Ray Romano and uh, Mitch Hedberg was one of them uh, who she booked on the show. And then when she was gone because she got this killer gig at uh, Comedy Central, I was the booker. So, um, I got to book Hedberg and it wasn't like I discovered him. I just booked him, you know, it was I might look like a hero, but I Joey was the hero when it came to Hedberg. She was smarter than know to know that he was the man. And I remember there was uh, Elvis Costello was my hero. If you look behind me, there's a Costello poster.

Fantastic. And one of the uh, shows when Dave got sick was hosted by Elvis Costello. When we had guest hosts, we had an extra guest in every show and there was always a comedian. So, that show already had Eddie Izzard not as a stand-up, but as someone sitting down at the panel. So, I had to find a stand-up. Now, I would have loved to be on that show. I would have begged to be on the show, but I was recently on the show um, on another episode. So, I couldn't. So, I thought who would be the most perfect comic to be with Elvis Costello and Eddie Izzard and Mitch Hedberg was the guy, you know. That's an intellectual night, man. That's a night Oh, that's a That's a fantastic a smart night. That's incredible, you know, just you know, incredible artists and you know, and I knew that Hedberg was the right comic in there.

Selfishly, I wanted to be on the show, but you know, I knew that it wasn't the right thing to do and and Hedberg, you know, so and I'd worked with Hedberg a lot, you know, we had worked in the Cayman Islands together, you know, we had uh, there was an incredible gig down there where you just it's paradise and you know, you didn't make a lot of money, but you were in paradise for like a week or two. And uh Hedberg and I worked down there. And so, I knew him pretty well. I I I knew his mom, Mary, very well. And even after Hedberg had passed away, Mary and I kept in touch and they she was doing a bunch of events and wanted some tapes of her son and I'd help her to secure them and yeah. That is uh that's really really cool.

Uh Hedberg's one of those guys when you talk about um you know, uh smart you know, versus he did not have to throw anything into his comedy uh that was even edgy, but you talk about the clever and how he could uh the turn of phrases and and that's what what we love about Dave, too, and and and all the people that surround him. It The wordsmith uh aspect of it is a is a huge part.

Um I want to show a couple of uh There's the man right there. Yeah, I think that was Yeah, wearing a tie and a jacket and shirt that wasn't white. Um and that was outside of the theater, coming to the theater. And I think that, you know, one of the the thing behind me was one of these like vans that would have would house extras or um animals if, you know, there was an animal, you know, Jack Jack was on the show or, you know, it was just like uh the So, there was a van behind me there. And you know, sometimes it would be very rarely was there a van back there unless it was, you know, uh a bus that belonged to Willie Nelson or a van that housed the actors cuz there wasn't enough room with all the guests to also put all the actors in dressing room. So, we made sure that they We treated the guests very well. And every guest will tell you that. The Letterman show sort of our We were you know, told and kept, you know, treat the guests like gold and we did.

Sure. I think I'm pretty sure that most everybody who's ever been in the show will back up and say, "Yeah, we were treated well." Every whim, everything we wanted. And that was below that, you and Billy Shefft? Yeah, we were um over there and uh we would stand on the you know, I had two places where I stood at the beginning. First half of the show I was behind the camera two, which was Dave Dorsett. Yeah. Dave Dorsett was Walter Cronkite's cameraman and uh you know, he was one of the best camera people in the history of television. Yeah. And I I spent the first half of the show behind him and then the second half or the the two-thirds on the side uh there with Billy and uh And Billy left the show for a while, was working on his own book and he was going to leave the show and then I guess he missed it and came back, but I think it was a a good year or so where he wasn't there. Uh what was You probably worked with him every day and and and I mean you guys probably had a unique dynamic compared to everybody else on the show as well, I would think.

Kind of, you know, I didn't go to the right I never really hung out with the writers and he was mainly a writer on the show. And uh so I didn't really hang out with them, but Bill was on the set and you know, we we we loved the Beatles, him and I and Dave. Um we would talk Beatles all the time and uh you know, we talked music all the time and we talked comics and you know, Bill and I didn't always love the same comics, um but you know, we have a history, we worked together in the past. I remember we had a show once it was booked just outside of Atlantic City and when we got to the place, the parking lot was empty, but it was filthy because Joan Jett and the Blackhearts had worked the night before and uh and they didn't clean up the parking lot and we get to this gig and I think it was a 600-seat venue, and there was three people in the audience, a husband, a wife, and the husband's mother.

And so, they canceled the show, and they paid us. I think it was like 250 each. And Bill and I just said, you know, we're here in Atlantic City, let's go to Atlantic City. And we both won money in Atlantic City, and we didn't have to work, and we got paid. We took our paid money, made more money on that, and drove home. I remember that clearly. It was one of the first real hangouts with Bill Scheftner. That's a great night. Yeah. Um Eddie, I thank you for your time here. I'm going to give you I'm going to do one more picture here to kind of send us off because it just to me it encapsulates you. There's so much joy in this picture here. I want to show. There's another one that I'm going to save for the next time that you're on. I'm presupposing that, by the way, that you will be on again, and we can talk about it. It's a It's a picture with you guys. Thank you for that. It's a picture with you guys at the Scrum at the Desk. We didn't even get to the Scrum at the Desk. I think that uh as as enthusiasts, a a lot of us always wondered what the heck happened there.

We're going to save that. And I'll give the audience a tip. the way, Yes. by the way, Dave, Bill, and I would go to hockey games often. Dave loved going to hockey games, and there you know, there there are photos that were taken by photographers, professionals, where me and Dave are cheering on like we're you know, he he liked original six only. He That was what he really liked. He loved the original six. And if there was a game, but he also loved Ovechkin. And we went to see Dave. How can you not love Ovechkin as a player? Absolutely. Crazy the crazy good. And so, there was a photo bunch of photos when we went to see the Rangers-Capitals playoff game together, and you know, so, just so you know, and I remember Marv Albert made fun of Dave the next day cuz he said Marv said, "Oh, I saw photos that you were at the hockey game. You probably left early." And Dave got like he was like, "No, we didn't. We in fact we stayed for the three stars which we did you know to find cuz I don't leave the hockey game until I know who the three stars are. You know.

Okay, I've never said this really out loud to anybody cuz I'm one of those fans that that are enthusiasts that keep some of these memories locked away that nobody really appreciates or or can identify with cuz they're personal. But one of the ones 2010 when Canada won Canada US finals the golden goal Sidney Crosby came in in overtime and won won the thing. And my favorite segment on your show on your guys' show was was the first segment after the monologue. I I love that if I was having a crappy day I just knew that I had that waiting for me at night where Dave would just talk to the audience and sometimes there's a comedy piece that was sitting there that he would just ignore and do his thing, right? I'm right up on that, right? Like that's Right, yeah. That segment Yeah. The night after Canada won the Olympic in Vancouver when the Olympic gold medal I remember it as well. Okay. Dave talking about that I'll never forget this moment. Actually it's it's something I want to I want to pester Don Giller to to get me the clip for one day cuz I just it just made me smile so big that next day. Like people were when we when when that goal was scored suddenly outside of every house you could hear horns honking and things it was a big [ __ ] deal when we won that game.

Yeah. And Letterman the next night he gets on he gets on there and he started doing his segment. I don't know if he ignored a piece of comedy or not but he started talking about did you see the gold medal game last night? Did you see what happened? And he talked about it he goes you know half about halfway through the game I I I think and I'm paraphrasing but it's this is my memory. Halfway through the game I'm sitting there going I hope the Canadians win. Yeah, we talked about that because before the show not before the show but in the early segment because I was the same way. When the game I was like I really hope Canada wins because this is their game and they need to win it. And that's how I felt. You know, I felt like look, we're American and we're doing really well for the first time against Canadians. When the Americans beat the Canadians in the juniors, it was unbelievable that that could ever happen in the history of of hockey. And so, you know, and I was excited and it was great. I remember filming a TV show and I can't think of the guy's name out of Toronto. He used to have a TV show and I I filmed this show when the the the juniors were going on at the time and I can't believe I can't remember the guy's name. But anyway, Mike Bullard, George Stroumboulopoulos?

Bullard. Mike Bullard. Bullard, there you go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what a great guy, you know, I loved doing his show. Tie Domi was also a guest on the show that I did. And uh, you know, who had a head like a head was very misshapen. And uh, you know, but anyway, so I remember after when Sidney Crosby scored that goal, I was like, you know, good. Good for the Canadians. And so, we had that discussion the next day and I guess I don't remember it how it went down, but we talked about it and we were happy because it really you guys it was much more meaningful for you guys. And it was kind of interesting how we were like, look, that's a major goal would have been for us, but good for the Canadians. Yeah, man. I I love that that we connected on that. No pre-interview here, but I'm very, very glad that that you remember that. I got one final question and then I'm going to show this picture and then we're going to sign off for this episode.

Oh, first no, no, before that. Plug some gigs. This is going to go up in about a week. Um, well, you know, the on Twitter it's Eddie_Brill. Yeah. And at you know, at Eddie Comic is my Instagram name. At Eddie Comic. At Eddie Comic on Instagram, okay, yeah. Yeah. And I'm on Facebook and I put I put a lot of stories on Facebook. Um there are a ton of them, but you you know, I'm pretty much full, but if you follow me, you can read the stories I wrote. And I write a lot of stories about what happened at Letterman, about the Rickles episode I was that Rickles mentioned that he loved me on the air and I told the Joan Rivers story and I tell a lot of Letterman stories on on that. So, if you go to Facebook under Eddie Brill, you know, just follow me and you'll be able to read um a lot of the stories I write, but I'm I think I'm pretty full there. As far as gigs, I have a ton of gigs coming up. I have in uh Suffern, New York, one of my favorite little venue called the Rhino.

It seats about 100 people comfortably and there's just you know, maybe 80 people and it's just the most beautiful room you could ever work and I'm doing it, you know, a bunch of benefits for Ukraine. We just did one a week and a half ago. We got another one coming up soon in I think May 1st or May 7th May 2nd. The Paper Moon, the comedy club we used to run is now a jazz club called the Zinc Bar. I'm there on Sunday, May 1st. I mean, I'm I have a whole bunch of gigs coming up. That's fun. Performing at that club must be uh must be a special kind of it's kind of night to be there, to remember all those years ago. And I just had a meeting with this guy at a club in New York and we're going to try to do a Eddie Brill and friends every month and that's going to probably start in May or June. Um my wife and I talk about constantly how New York is our favorite American city. My wife's building a a men's mental wellness app right now and and when that thing blows up, um we're going to we're going to be traveling to New York quite a bit. Uh when that happens, I cannot wait to come see you and uh and and break bread and and and uh support what it is you're doing. I can't wait to hear back on the show again. My last question, um if there's three people uh if you got a list of three people who you'd like to see on my next guest, who are those three people?

Oh, on on your on on Oh, on Letterman's No, no, no, sorry. On my next guest needs no introduction. No, not this little dog and pony show. Oh, no, no, no, on the Netflix show. That's interesting. You know, it's there are people I I mhm You know, it's mostly the people that are no longer alive who I'm, you know, like Carson um would have loved to see Dave talk to him or John Lennon uh that kind of thing. I I think I you know, I mean he loved Elvis Costello, so I would like of course to see him talk to Elvis. I'd love to see him talk to Mel Brooks. Oh. that would be a great interview, you know, cuz Mel is uh you know, on the Cavett show he was brilliant and I love, you know, great directors and that kind of thing and uh you know, I don't know as far as actors, you know, maybe an an hour with Sophia Loren. That would just be thrilling for me to see. So, those are three people are still alive that I would I would want to see on the show. Uh thank you for that. That's awesome. I appreciate that. Uh this is I I just I see this picture of you and and that just to me brings so much joy. I see the joy on your face. Yeah.

On that stage, in that moment, and it translated beautifully to the camera. I don't know which appearance that was. I don't know if that was warm up or not, but I was warm up one night. Yeah, the New York Times uh picked a photographer was in and took that photo. I remember the yellow tie that I didn't wear often, but I wore it that night. Um Eddie, I just uh I can't tell you how much uh I appreciate your piece of the history that has made up the tapestry of my mind and my subconscious pathways that are going on back there. I don't know how many impressions of you that I've seen uh on the TV, uh whether passively or or you in front of the camera or or at the desk or whatever. security. What's I didn't have any security. Um the picture that we're going to show next time you're on is is you in a scrum at the desk and Charlie Sheen is there. We're not going to talk about it now, but we're going to talk about that next time.

Okay, cool. I Eddie, thank you so much for this. Thank you so much for who you are and and what you've meant to the Letterman community. Thank you so much for being on the Letterman podcast today. My pleasure. You be well and and I look forward to mental health thing. I'd love any way I can help and be part of that, let me know. Okay, we'll talk about that. Maybe we'll have you on a an episode of Heat Cast. I love I love having comics on Heat Cast because in many ways when it comes to men's mental wellness, stand-up comics actually they get the bad rap for for for being broken, but really at the end of the day they're more vulnerable and more truthful about life than anybody. So yeah, I would love Yeah. In comedy this this the thread in most comics is vulnerability. The great comics, you know, Pryor and Carlin and Lily Tomlin and you know, Jonathan Winters and all those great ones, they were um, you know, that that's vulnerability was a threat. And by the way, one time during the warm-up somebody in the audience asked Dave who his favorite comedian was. And I and it was weird cuz I had been there I guess at that point like 12, 13 years and I didn't had never asked Dave that.

I didn't understand why I didn't know that and without skipping a beat he said Jonathan Winters. Wow. And it made sense because you know how smart and inventive and silly and uh Yep. incredible of a mind that he had. So, there's something people might not know, but I but you know, if you were at that taping you would have known cuz Dave answered the question, but it's uh it was really cool to know that that was his favorite comedian without and it didn't didn't even take a a second to think about it. Um we could do this all day and I would. Like I would. I would take advantage of your time and do it all day, but I'm not going to. it again. I know. Oh, my man. Thank you, Eddie. There we go. I think this is going to be episode three when it hits. But me know and I'll I'll put it on the the internet and and hopefully people will, you know, flood and watch it. Thank you, Eddie. That's There we go.

That is another episode of the Letterman podcast. I hope you're enjoying it. Please, if you have questions for Eddie for his future performance on here for future future interview on here, please please throw them our way. Please share the Facebook group. Please share subscribe. I don't know any of that stuff. But do all of that that that that stuff to get this thing going. Let's build a community. Let's have some fun. Let's keep being the torchbearers of what Eddie and and and and and all of his cohorts did working for Dave and company. Thank you so much. This has been another episode of the Letterman podcast. My name is Mike Chisholm. Thank you and good night.