Will Lee

you're watching The Lettermen podcast with Mike chisen endorsed by the hello Deli yeah welcome once again to the Lettermen podcast today we got Lee Ellenberg part two uh I'm I'm I love this conversation I love all the conversations that we have uh with these fine folks we've recorded I think two or three this week that are in the can our Christmas episode is done already uh lots of good things happening lots of people who are like okay uh we want to do it but we're gonna do it in the New Year good stuff happening in the land of the Lettermen podcast very excited about that uh a couple things obviously many of the moments that we talk about during these shows are available um in two places whether you know there's the official Letterman Channel which is adding two or three videos every single day from the vast catalog of uh of work that was done through uh these three decades or so lots of good stuff that's just coming all the time so a lot of these moments we talk about are available go to the official Letterman Channel you can subscribe there um and then of course Don giller's Channel I mean there is no um greater and archivist of uh Letterman and Company material than than and curator not just an archivist but a curator of of many of these amazing moments if you want to do a deep dive on some of these people that we talk about Lee and I talk about Alan Coulter in this episode uh there's a beautiful Alan culture tribute um that is on Don giller's channel so those two channels I would highly recommend subscribing to if you want to uh continue down this this deep dive that is uh the body of work of David Letterman and Company uh today Lee Ellenberg part two you know what we're still figuring out the voice of this show all right um I'm a podcast guy and I've been a podcast guy for a long time my podcasting um influence began probably with Kevin Smith because I'm also uh I'm also an Enthusiast of the work that Kevin Smith did I loved uh indie film with the 90s I was that kid Gen X kid and Kevin Smith Hit Me Right Between the Eyes um he started talking about comic books and superheroes way before it was in fashion to do so you know before the first X-Men movie he was talking about this stuff if you go watch Mall Rats Stan Lee makes an appearance in Mallrats I mean that's so and if you look at uh again I'm a big Gretzky guy you don't go where the puck is you know where the puck is going um away actually not just a Wayne gretzee it's a Walter Gretzky quote Wayne learned that from his dad and um you know Kevin knew where the puck was going when it came to pop culture he was just so ahead of his time and and he started a podcast called smodcast years ago um I I was a huge Enthusiast of that and the other thing that Kevin Smith always said was if you want to do something if you love something just go do it um you know he went and famously saw a saw slacker uh in the uh I forget which movie theater was very famous New York movie theater he saw it and and he looked up and said well this counts like I could I could do this and then he went and made clerks and and and since um all the success that he has gotten he has influenced people like crazy hey if you wanna you wanna start a podcast go start a podcast and I mean the step of Faith uh in doing this endeavor here uh has been so so worth already like I say it could end tomorrow if Walter and and worldwide pants and all that and all the way up to the top with Dave if they hit the big red button and said no Chisholm Kate you're done we don't want you to do this anymore I I mean okay I'd probably have to adhere to that um I don't want to be a rebel against this thing that I love so much but at the same time I've already won and it's because I took advice from Kevin Smith uh Joe Rogan I'm a Rogan guy I'll listen to I'll listen to Rogan's podcast all the time they're three hours long Kevin Smith's podcast can be one two three hours long like um so in doing this show when I sit down with a guy like Lee and we go two plus hours I mean do I release that as one episode is it better to bite size it into into a two-parter um I I don't know the answer to that we're just kind of stumbling along and uh and figuring this thing out this is where the community will help and and I would appreciate that very very much if uh if if if you might um you know throw out constructive criticism let's not just you know throw uh yellow snowballs uh let's let's have constructive criticism along the way here and and and and don't get me wrong I haven't had very many yellow snowballs thrown at us there's been a couple but um it's it's it's been such a good journey so far here uh and hearing the insights from these people I mean you know yesterday we recorded another one um you know the day that this episode is released the Friday there's we're recording two a couple of very very special guests who are coming on um and and I want to know what you feel like as we shape the show I've got some definite ideas but I would love to hear what uh the small uh micro masses that we have already adopting the show feel about this so please join the Facebook group uh we would love to have you there uh please add any content that you might have or stories or want to hear your stories the community is so important about the to the to me about um this project and uh this uh well it's not really even a project this feels like it this feels like a life's work and I know it's weird to say that but in this moment of where my life is uh this is by far my favorite outside of my family my very favorite thing I I can't tell you the joy that I get from doing this to the point where if I continue to talk about it I'll actually get emotional about it it's so much fun it's so great and having people reach out the people who have reached out and told me their stories please please let's do that more feel free to post them publicly in the Facebook book group let's assemble a community here and have some fun celebrating this beautiful body of work and transferring all of these amazing moments um Lee has some great insights here in part two uh he Compares writing for The Tonight Show to The Late Show he talks about the magic of working for 30 Rock that's my word but um he the Majesty of of actually working there the fact that he is aware that he is part of an evolution you know that started with Dave wanting The Tonight Show all the way to late shift one late shift two and then you've got people who come along you know and they start their careers around the time that that things are ending um or or or at least they see the the back half of Letterman singing It's like well okay we're still in our 40s we still got to go to work and then they go to work for The Tonight Show and and and they bring some of these sensibilities over there and and what is the same and what's not we we get into a really good talk about that um he uh he has a really good comparison of of The Late Show to The Muppet Show which I I loved I thought it was such a beautiful beautiful comparison and and just Lee Ellenberg is such a great guy um and we talk about Joe Grossman a lot which is which is a lot of fun too um Alan calter we you know those of who who have watched this show know how much I adore Alan Coulter and uh we have a really nice talk about him I'm just really excited about this as always of course the Letterman podcast brought to you in part by uh Rupert G and the hello Deli uh go to Hello deli.com if you want to find any Letterman uh Late Show with David Letterman related merchandise um and also Rupert G merchandise and if you're in the New York area make the pilgrimage head down to the Ed Sullivan Theater um you know go go get a a super sandwich or beverage from Rupert and may down at the hello Deli and by the way the people who are hanging out outside on 53rd Street there outside of that building Colbert staffers many of them are a few of them anyway former uh Late Show staffers as well and and lots of cool things happen hanging out on 53rd Street there uh very very grateful again broken record talking about that thank you very very much for um being a part of the Letterman podcast please like please share Please Subscribe I will say that until the very minimum that I don't have to say that anymore um but enjoy uh lee Ellenberg part two here on the Lettermen podcast I'm fascinated by all of this um we've kind of set the table to you becoming a writer now it's like okay talking about welcome to the show that never ends I mean yeah I I just the respect I have for you guys uh the analogy that I've taken to using on this show is literally um and the reason this show exists is is is you guys are miners and every single day you're picking up metal whatever it is that you find you find some you you find some silver you find some deposits of minerals uh more often than not in my opinion gold or diamonds and then oh great this has been great you take them you throw them on the ground discard them because now it's time to keep Mining and trying to find more you did that uh 15 years essentially yeah yeah I mean 15 years and and the entire you know rest of the Run of Late Show I talk about Dave's Evolution so much in this show we talk about it um I I loved powerful Dave I I just I make no bones about it there are so many people who love the experimental nature and the college feel of of late night and all that I love that too I love it all but powerful Dave was my guy it was like we watched him you know playing the you know like our favorite band watched him playing the you know the family get-togethers then small clubs then bigger clubs and now they're doing Shea Stadium and yeah and you got to be a writer for that almost that entire time where Dave was bigger than whoever was beside him 99 of the time yeah a crazy time for you to be a writer for that show um when you became a writer was there something that you focused on more often than not was there something that was kind of like oh yeah that's Lee's I know some of the answers to this but I want to hear kind of your perspective on it first before I started asking um not really I mean when you become a writer you're really kind of expected to do it all um I mean the one I mean I did have a a head start in that because by the time I was made a writer I had been submitting material for you know going on three years right so my so my first day did not feel like a first day every sorry to interrupt but you'd submit material in all different aspects of the show well that's a good question um that like you said top 10 really is the entryway that's the gate that's the that's the door it really is um then when you started to get more comfortable then you started expanding that was a very intimidating thing for me um to move from a top ten to the first time I handed in a script and like all writers I look back or I think back to the things I pitched and it just makes me cringe but I remember the first time again it was Tim long he called me into his office and we discussed it and you know you know he he could not have been more constructive um even though he probably thought it was garbage because it was in fact garbage but you know I I did ultimately um I I did finally gain the confidence but I mean I remember one time I I came to this realization that should have come year years earlier which was I remember thinking I woke up one morning it was like a Saturday at five in the morning and I realized wait a minute not only do I have to get to the point where I do more than top tens and I have to write scripts I have to do it every day yeah you know at this point like I'm trying to curate the perfect submission pack yeah but I'm thinking I'm already there which means if I get the job tomorrow I have to hit the ground running so that was kind of like uh you know that was a frightening moment for me um but I did ultimately um you know Branch out from the top ten so by the time I became a writer I I had done almost everything except shooter remote like okay you know so I I felt like I had done I had written mailbag letters I'd written live bits I'd written tons of top tens or whatever we did know your current events it was really only um remote bit that I think I I I it was still so foreign to me um and then as the years went on I I don't know if I had us I I oversaw myself as more of a utility player to be honest with you um like I never felt like I was and I I'm not just saying this I never felt I was that good at any one thing I thought I was okay at a lot of things like Steve Young um you know is the kind of guy who will produce something which is just brilliant yeah that's not me um you know I I'm more the person who you want me to do this today great you want me to do that fine um but I've never I don't think I've ever been the best writer of any room I've ever been in but I'm also not the worst writer um so like I feel like I'm right in that middle so I think that if I had a specialty that's what it was my specialty was I had no specialty you could kind of plug me in anywhere the collaboration and and helping to helping to to to to accentuate things and that sort of thing or did you were there it like okay here's a good question was there something early on as a writer yeah like a premise that you came up with there was there a premise one that you're like looking back on and I know most writers aren't able to even fathom this but apparently you're pretty well adjusted so I'm going to ask you is there anything early on that you are proud of that you're like yeah I'm glad I got that one on or that that turned out that premise turned out really really nice you know I'm okay no but let me explain this I love the disclaimer excellent yes I I might be wrong about this but I bet you if you ask most of the writers the same question again I could be way way off on this the thing that we most remember or we're most fond of is probably the the oddest stupidest silliest of course it is instead of like yes it's one big piece that I I did that was you know four minutes and this and that and no no um it's the band whose favorite song in their catalog is a b side it's it's it's yeah you know I get that absolutely like like when I'm together with with you know Joe and and Steve the things that we kind of joke about or the things that we remember most fondly really just entertained us yeah um and that's what I'm asking that is that is that is 100 what I'm looking for yeah that fascinates me I I mean I I'm I'm sorry I'm giving such a disappointing answer like I just I can't remember one specific thing I mean like for instance oh Joe's gonna love this on um I'm just on on Friday Joe and I watched a clip that I wrote along with Jeremy weiner where so NASA had developed this urine purification system so that astronauts could turn their own urine into potable water and um so Jeremy and I wrote this thing where Dave says and look we have footage of the test in in uh you know in action and Joe plays an astronaut and he there's a big machine that says I think you're urine purification system or something and he drinks this big glass and then he picks up and then he just you know picks up a plug and he says forgot to plug it in it's still urine now it's as stupid as you could imagine but for some reason like something like that I remember with great fondness and I know Joe does I believe Jeremy does yeah um it's not that it was the funniest thing I ever did it certainly wasn't or the most memorable but it's moments like that and I think it's because I mean the one great thing about that job was we always tried to make Dave laugh and the people in the room laugh more than the audience yeah um you know I mean I'm sure Dave probably wouldn't be thrilled to know that like we didn't care if the audience laughed because I know he did I would assume he did you know he's the one who's got to sit in front of 400 people just staring at him but um if I can make Steve laugh when we were having dinner I was you know thrilled or if Steve made me laugh like so it's those little things and maybe that's why I can't I mean I probably could that moment I want to talk about no no you you did you've done good Lee because I want to talk to you about that moment for a second because yeah um here's something that I hope I hope edifies you it makes you feel good okay so um Joe's on our show Joe talks about of course because I don't know how many times you guys made him drink urine but he drank urine quite a bit quite a few yeah uh great inventive ways of setting up scenarios uh for him and and one of them I asked him if he ever broke and and there was one where he broke um where and oh I know what you're gonna say the only time the Herbie Hancock joke which is we just watched that too okay yeah so so anyway we talk about that on on our show uh it's on a Friday we come out on Fridays on Monday Walter and Company put out the clip of ox uh the the the survivalist going and drinking the urine okay uh Herbie Hancock he shows a break and all that stuff so that's kind of neat because it it there's some symmetry here there's some uh yeah some Evolution here of it growing now I I need to disclaim this I'm not in the habit of reading YouTube comments okay I got that guy because that's a rabbit hole that can destroy self-esteem very very quickly yeah however in that uh thread of Walter putting up the clip of ox drinking that urine one of the comments in there was somebody forgot to plug it in and and so they were calling back what you that memory that had not been oh that's actually thrown out there they were calling back that exact same joke somebody put that comment in there and so anyway I just uh weird how you know I read that yeah I don't wait that's so so there you go maybe what you guys did actually made more than just Dave and the other staff laugh the fact that somebody would throw that in there as a callback that is a very clever comment and you just we didn't rehearse this we didn't create there's no reason anyway that's great um yeah um no I I love that stuff I think I think Jeremy and I were the first ones to put Joe on the show and um he was always great um and Dave liked him um so it and you could see I think you could I think you could see Dave's enjoyment of doing these bits with Joe yes um but um there were so many of them we used to talk about it all the time like um like the best is I mean we're in such a different environment now but like the writer because look we're a late night show yeah we come on after their average viewer has consumed a fair amount of news so you know you could say one of our mission statements or our mission statement is to um kind of give the comedic spin on something they've seen in the news well some days there's just really no news slow news day and slow news day and that used to turn into kind of the most fun day and and we always still talk about it was a Wednesday and Steve Young and it was just a brutally slow news day I mean look I I yearn for a slow news day now but and Steve Young wrote this whole piece about hump day it made no sense I mean it made sense but it was just that we're putting on a 30 second or however long piece about it being hump day and it was like such a great performance by Steve it's like what could I do how do I turn something a nothing into something yeah that is what I remember most fondly it's yeah you know there's a joke about whatever about Clinton about Bush about whatever uh but you know to be able to just create your own premise which is the hardest thing how to you know create something out of whole cloth and Steve was always so good at it that's what I remember um um so clearly um and you know it's when I still get together with the writers those are the moments although when we joke about the the things that made us laugh we really don't talk about the more well-known things you know we don't talk about David Taco Bell or things like that we just remembered that one joke that Tommy wrote or that Jeremy wrote um that just really made us laugh and it might have made nobody else yeah in the audience laugh but it just you know it that we but you know that also goes back to what you were saying earlier about how many and I don't think this is specific to comedy writers but how many people don't laugh at something and they just say that's funny that's how I felt when I first saw if you watched me watching Dave you would think I was watching C-SPAN but yeah or something yeah right but you know it was just striking that inner tuning fork and I just thought this is the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life it's how I yes it's how I feel when I watched modern romance but you know Albert Brooks movie for the first time it's just I said I you don't you can't tell by looking at me but I am enormously entertained right now yeah you're spelled out you're Spellbound and when you're Spellbound by something you're just yeah your tunnel vision element almost and there are no emotional reactions other than yeah yeah I I hear you and the moments you're talking about by the way are the moments that they Light My Fire I I love this this is the stuff that we're that we're looking for in this show um yeah so obviously the job uh you know your level of comfort um evolves to a certain point again Breakneck speed you can't you probably are never comfortable but at the end of the day you kind of feel you're starting to get your rhythms yeah that kind of yeah yeah what was your favorite stuff like you you did some stuff with that celebrity interview was that that was you right yeah yeah I didn't create it I didn't create it I believe Carter and Craig created it and I think they did one it might have been the going out to Paltrow one Paltrow Paltrow oh no and then she he she I think they just that's around the time they left the show and so I think the head writers at the time yeah Eric and Justin who had hired me I think they said can you do the next one and that just turned into this you know we did it to the very end oh yeah so I I took I I did take that over and it did grow a little bit which was fun uh I mean it largely was the same thing I mean like anything we we really sort of like drove it into the ground but I mean you know God Alan Russ's rest is uh Soul it was um you know he was so fantastic so that was just um you know that was all him I mean like the the piece did grow a little bit we um we added little embellishments here and there really it was just to make it longer because Alan was so good at it and Dave enjoyed it um you could always hear Bill Chef tackling with laughter um um whenever if you listen if you watch them on YouTube and and you know Alan says Ah you make me sick because she did this and you did that and Dave said that's not how it happened and Alan would say that is exactly how it happened you could always at that moment here Bill shaft cackle with laughter um and and my favorite moment I don't know why was um Alan would say to Dave you got a pencil and Dave would say yeah he goes building mark this down and every time David left and I remember one time Eric and Justin said I think we should lose that line and I I said you can't lose that line lose anything else but that was you know um one fight I won and um they said you're right leave it back in because it makes Dave laugh uh but that's a perfect example I'm not laughing those are not jokes really I mean maybe mark it down is but it was just more that I don't know it was the way Alan delivered it it was just I don't know it's um it's never the joke that comes head-on that makes us laugh it's always that very odd specific thing uh that odd sort of round away round of the way kind of thing that you know that's a perfect example like the actual jokes where you know Alan insults Dave and then he insults the celebrity those were great but it was those little things that I you know really really we found entertaining and which is why we did it for you know whatever it was 15 years yeah I mean the the perfect refillable no question I I look at this and go but this is what you just said to me again going from Dave who it's very difficult pick a comedian and pick a monologue to get that comedian to do one of Dave's monologues almost impossible because uh and I mean I remember trying to be that kid who would try and explain the next day after something I saw the night before you know Jerry Seinfeld jokes even Richard Pryor jokes or something you can go boom boom boom boom and you can repeat them and you'd get a laugh out of it with Letterman it was really tough to do that because so much of it was just based on him his reaction the way he said something the Personality yeah and now that again all of these things they all go down into the rest of the culture of the show what you just said about Alan it's the same thing it's not funny if 95 of the people were to say it but if someone said it in the way that Alan said it there you go there's the magic there and you guys captured that and were able to replicate that in kind of a culture of how the show was was shaped and I will say that like you know because I think you tapped into a larger issue which a larger subject which is those are the people I find funniest in general people who can say who can make you laugh by not saying a joke not saying a punchline like you know Chris Elliott to me was maybe the best I've ever seen like I feel like you know stepping away from the show I feel that way with um you know Amy Poehler uh Melissa McCarthy can do it um a Bill Murray can do it that you know it's and but Alan was so great at it yeah um and then we would write scripts just because we wanted to we really want just wanted to see Alan perform and um I mean I mean we could do a whole thing just on Alan because you know he was he was a TV announcer we're gonna treat him so anyway keep going keep going but just one day we're gonna do a treatment episode to him we're gonna do an Inky uh but anyway yeah yeah yeah please it was just it was just amazing I mean I I I always loved that we had I was just talking about this with Joe that I loved that we had a cast of characters not just two or three people we had like 10 12 15 people and it's so funny that I don't know why I mean this might be the stupidest uh comparison you've ever heard but it just like a couple of weeks ago it made me realize that we were kind of like the Muppet Show in that our show was not the show our show was you know like when Dave would say you know sometimes we'd write things about oh uh the celebrity is in his dressing room and we cut to that or you know I just got a message cut through the receptionist our show we were also showing or pretending to show how the show was produced we were showing scooter backstage with Kermit and like that to me is what made the show so fun is how much we may believe took place backstage you know like the cold open of day with George Clooney or Dave with Tina Fey and you know that to me is is was such a fun it's what made the show so fun to write for yes is that it didn't have to be day we could show it Harold Laura I've shot a ton of pieces with Harold Larkin and let me tell you he really is people would ask that question a lot of times like about the different people we would have on the show like George Clark and Harold Larkin and I'd say no Harold Larkin really is our head Carpenter Harold is a brilliant performer yeah I mean to the point where it used to surprise me um like we would go on field shoots and um I would talk into a mic into his ear and I would always try to wait until they stopped talking he'd say no you could he was like a new like a news anchor he'd say no talk to me while I'm talking I can do it and I'd be feeding him lines as he's having a conversation and he wouldn't miss a beat I never knew how how he got so good at it but he really was a natural but that's a special skill right there not everybody very no for a few people have that Harold was the easiest person I ever shot with um but you know it was it it that really is is is what I loved as per as a person who was helping put the show on but I also loved just now as a fan that I love that kind of that that's what the show was that yes this is Dave you know like Dave was almost playing the part of a guy hosting a show that was terribly wrong even though it wasn't obviously like I you know that you know the Bad News Bears running it yeah no no I get that that's yeah yes and many fans of this of of what you guys did are fans of all of those things that I'm talking and the Muppet Show uh you know being a chief example yeah abs without a doubt um like they would be at the monologue Mark and then Kathy would come out and say you know uh it's so-and-so's birthday we need money and you know again like and Dave would say like you know couldn't the subway did it until the show or shows over or stuff but it was the idea that yeah it's kind of a show but you know like um if Kathy has to talk to Dave she she's not going to care that the show's going on she's just going to do it or you know an intern does something stupid backstage or um you know that was it wasn't just we had a cast of characters I think it was we had a cast of characters and but you know we were kind of showing this this peak behind the curtain and again it was you know Tony with the cue cards or Biff was was the stage manager or George was the uh um the building manager that's what these people's real jobs were yeah and so it was just so funny playing into that um that was really great but I will say Alan really was special and and just to bring this one part of the conversation full circle like something like Alan coulter's celebrity interview the jokes remain largely the same it really was just the way like we just want to to say I don't do that again and um he was just you know I I will say when we used to do like our fake commercials we used to have we had we had this incredible stable of voice over artists and I learned so much about voice artists just working with these people but I remember like that was one part of the job which I didn't realize how much fun it would be but it was you'd write a script and then you saw what some of our voiceover artists like you know the the late great Rob Webb or Sarah Krieger or J.R horn who who was in a couple of Cohen Brothers films or Ralph uh Ralph gunderman or um and and then some other performers who were very well known you know from stage and Screen um it was amazing you handed them a script and they just brought some Sam freeze another uh Monica trombetta they'd bring this life to it and you thought you just made it a hundred times funnier yeah that was something I I I I I I I always thought voice over artists were just people with good voices but they're not you know they're these really talented men and women these really great actors who just could just make something I know it sounds corny and cliche but it really did make them leap off the page and uh you know Alan was just so good at that it's you know you wrote something which was moderately funny and then you just you know put it now unleash the hounds gold yeah it was amazing yeah and yeah I I appreciate you talking about this I also appreciate your time here I just want to make sure there are two or three other things I wanted to get to are we okay for time for for a couple more yeah absolutely absolutely outstanding outstanding um uh I wanna there's a thread that you talked about there for a second that I want to kind of go back to for a moment Joe Grossman um the writer and and one of the things that I said in one of uh the intros we had a two-parter with him one of the intros um I said oh Joe gets two parts I get it well uh where the way we're shaping up I think you might too um that was that was a litmus test right there that that we just passed you said you have enough time okay two more things we get two parts um so Joe um one of the things that I said in one of his intros was Joe was one of those guys when he would come out he was one of the guys you would wonder is he really a writer or is he um one of the actors that was hired to play somebody you know like a Lyle the intern or or yeah or Jody Ebert who the you guy or or whatever right you almost he you kind of blurred the lines a little bit um but but Joe of course uh a writer friend of yours all of that stuff uh um now that being said some writers um got the chance to do some stuff in front of the camera famously Jared Gerald Gerard Mulligan probably the most uh yeah but but did you ever have any inkling of being a performer so many writers have a performer that does want to come out sometimes did you ever have any of that in you uh not really because I think I always had a pretty healthy view of what I can and cannot do and I just I'm not a performer you know I don't think I have anything that's engaging um you know she never tried stand up or anything like that in your life no no way that's a skill set that I do not believe I have I have an enormous enormous respect for stand-ups um I I you know it that is just a skill set I don't have um and yeah never never it's uh that's just something that's way way out of my league yeah I gotcha um but but you know what I'm saying though some of the writers there that that's or some writers that you know I I think about guys like well Seth Meyers for example is a fun probably the best example of uh of that but other you know people who started as writers ended up as performers I think that there's a you know Tina Fey another one um but that was never enough just never thought that you know oh man if people if America gets low to this holy um and clearly I was right because nobody's ever asked me um but uh no I I it um I I think no no I I think if they're look I I wish I wish there was something I could have brought to the table I mean Joe I think when Jeremy and I first you know also keep in mind at at The Late Show probably in all places um but a late show these things happened as a throw-off uh as a throwaway like Jeremy and I were writing something and I really don't remember what Joe's first thing was and we just said what if we get Joe to do it that's it that's it and then there's always like this you know you don't know how it's going to go you don't know if if uh how well the performer's gonna do you don't know how well the piece does you don't know how well uh Dave's going to respond to it I mean there's a there's a number of moving pieces that could you know kill something quickly but I think once you see Dave enjoying it it's like well let's get Joe to do it again and then it it always always always worked and um you know so um yeah but you know for me I I just feel like I'm very much the every man I you know whereas saying Joe is not an every man but I'm just saying he certainly does it's easier to do an impression of Joe than it is to do of me um and you know it's uh Joe brought something so blame roll his eyes at that but uh but it's true it really was he was always very good yeah I uh well you know what we've had a couple times on the show now we've had Stephen weiner um who was uh who was there for the first uh year a couple years of late night he's the guy he and his ready partner Carl are the guys who discovered caliber at the forest and brought them brought them and similar sentiments you know like hey we see something there's potential here um let's throw it in and see how it looked I mean he was in the first the cold open of the original late night was California Forest it was the first thing you ever saw yeah this is CBS yeah uh well that too well and then yes and then the first thing you ever saw on Late Show was also Cal hurt the forest so yeah that that bookend is really really neat but but it was kind of a very similar sentiment it's like okay there's potential here so let's just put it forward and see kind of how it evolves and and in cases like Calvert yeah uh you know but or or Joe Joe was on a hundred and some odd times 112 times I think it was yeah exactly right like that's that's insane yeah that is insane no wonder why they canceled us that's ridiculous a hundred times that's insane oh wait here's where the train went off the tracks it was right there seriously that man should not be on national TV in the triple digits that's disgraceful I'll tell you why I love Joe so much is because and it's a similar I have a similar um affection I don't think that sense has ever been said before but please go ahead Joe's wife is gonna love this episode yeah um yeah and who am I kidding she's not gonna watch nobody's gonna watch this but that's okay um I I love the fact that gen xers started writing for Dave I I love that because again when I was a kid watching adults being silly um and then I got to see people who were people kind of like me born around the same time that I was and whatnot being part of the show and writing for an older David I also love that as well there's a there's a um and this kind of leads over to uh to kind of a um a nice little through line um you know Letterman shows up on the air there are Carson fingerprints a little bit you know um the over the years uh not only Carson protecting him and and starting on the 12 30 part but then you know when Dave moves over to CBS things like Peter LaSalle coming over and and of course Carson himself kind of anointing what you guys were doing um uh uh I think of Mulholland and Barry you know guys like that who who were writers for Carson for years and now contributors to Late Show Carson himself yeah and then as things evolve further you know Late Show ends in 2015 and I do want to go back to that in a minute here but um that ends and now we see folks who worked for Dave going on to different projects and and I just love this whole Evolution the tapestry that's being created real time that we've seen in our lives here um yeah you're on The Tonight Show now yeah with some Letterman folk including Joe now which is which is lovely it must have felt good to pick him up out of the Wilderness I don't know if he had anything to do with that or not but uh no do you guys are you guys working together or are you in different departments no no we write the monologue together and you know we uh collaborate here and there uh so it's great I love having Joe I mean Joe is a great great writer um so it's uh I I'm thrilled to death to have him I really am or to be able to work with him again and then the other folks that you that are there too which is which is lovely um yeah is it an unspoken thing that that part of what you guys bring to the table is adding a little bit of a letterman sensibility to Fallon or is it a brand new skill where it's like no we got to learn a new voice uh we got to be writing for this voice now and and and and the sensibility is 100 different and that's a skill that you have evolved and grown in your tool chest of skills um it's completely different um it's um well first of all keep in mind like late night or I guess in any show but your job is never to be funny your job is to be funny through the voice of whoever's hosting the show right it just so happens with my first job with Dave that's because that's what made me want to do this um you know there was no adjustment or anything like that that voice was easy to access right and then I worked for Larry Wilmore and he has his voice and then now I work for Jimmy and um he has his voice and I think everybody has that um um whoever you work for but we are not asked to bring a letterman Vibe at all it's like no Jimmy knows exactly what he wants to do um so he doesn't want so my job is not to adapt to bend the show to my voice it's that then my voice to to Jimmy's as as well it should be it's it's Jimmy's name on the Marquee it's his show whatever he wants I'm happy to do so it's uh it's a it's I mean it's very different obviously but um it's um it's never about bending anything to me it's always about bending myself to whoever I'm working for that makes sense what are some things that are similar because I mean you're in the grind for Late Show Larry Wilmore and then you kind of get back into that 11 35 the Marquee of of late night TV you kind of get back into that just a different franchise obviously 30 Rock I mean the Mystique of 30 Rock we haven't even gotten to that he must enjoy working for 30 Rock I do yeah yeah um what are some of the things that are the same well you know Mulligan uh Gerard used to always say funny is funny and he you know at the time I thought he'd lost his mind I didn't know how that meant but you know well perhaps he might have yes oh that happened a long time ago um but um it um like funny is funny I mean you know so if there is a funny take for almost anything that um doesn't have to be how can I say this um you know what it is if you write something funny it's funny it doesn't matter who the the host is I mean maybe you make some little adjustments or you calibrate it a little differently because you know maybe you don't want to make it as snarky or as ironic or maybe you want to do it this or that but I really firmly believe that in all these shows that I mean people will probably think I'm crazy here but I I think there is a large amount of material that could live on any of these shows yeah I really do you know it's like we would do like there are several pieces that I or kinds of pieces I would do for Letterman that you know could exist on The Tonight Show and vice versa you know I as far as um you know there are other pieces that that couldn't just because they're different ones not better or worse they're just different but I I think in an odd way for you know when you take let's say a monologue joke and you know obviously I'm all a joke you're you're writing it on a certain story of the day most news stories like a guy I I work with says every story has a take you know you just have to find that take so in that case that's a great way of looking at it that's a great way of bite-sizing the job and simplifying right so it's so it's you know fathomable right so then I think the question is you might present it differently depending on who you work for but the take Remains the Same and so you know when I'm sitting there writing monologue jokes for Jimmy you know it's like well what is the take that's really what you're thinking about so I think people would be surprised you know that in that that the middle area of Advent diagram is probably bigger than most people think you know um like I find a lot of the if I have developed any skills over the years I find that those are the same skills I'm using um for The Tonight Show now and I feel like the calibrations are again or maybe how a joke is presented or you know there's some fine tuning involved but I don't I don't know I I don't think it's that different um but that's not to say that doesn't present a challenge for for you know um I'll give you a perfect example I I have found when I think about all the writers at the old place at Dave that let's say we're fired that nothing let's say we're fired we're fired it didn't get picked up and I'm not just saying this most a large you know a huge percentage of those people weren't fired because they weren't funny or because you know they couldn't write a joke they could yeah I mean it was more that they might have had trouble adjusting to the voice of the show yes and you know because they might have had such a strong Voice already um you know like I remember we had a writer on the show uh and she was a stand-up and I like to stand up very much and I when maybe one of the reasons is that I I didn't do stand up is because I don't have a voice of my own really so I am kind of malleable I could write for this person but this person or that person whereas she had such a strong voice that like it I didn't want to see her adapt to Dave's voice because I don't want to you know I I was sort of jealous of this person having such a strong voice and I just thought I don't know do you really want to be writing top 10 jokes um because she was so funny um and yeah I bring this up because she did have a little trouble adjusting to the voice of the show but in a way it made perfect sense because some you know I'm thinking as a stand-up your job is to convey your voice yes the job here is to convey that guy's voice yes and you know like um you know as so I just found that sort of interesting to view it's you know um it's you know in order to be successful in late night TV you really do have to kind of bury whatever voice you do have and for a stand-up I just felt like well I don't want you to bury that voice I'm not saying you can't do both and because I'm not a stand-up maybe it's not as uh difficult as it is but as as a layperson when it comes to stand up it does seem difficult to me like how do you because I remember she would often say like oh no after this I'm going here I got a show here I got a set here which you know was always so impressive to me but I always think like how do you go back and forth so much um but um I don't know it's something I still think about but um again this is my very very long-winded way of saying that because I feel like yeah we all have some a little germ of a voice I don't know how much I feel like a Hired Hand you know it's and you know if if I mean that's not to say I could work for any show I mean there's certainly some things out there I'm sure I I just couldn't do but yeah you know I feel like if if I could find that tank I think that Joe can be calibrated to to work with this person or or that person you know I don't know if whatever I said made any sense whatsoever oh are you kidding me oh my God no no no like okay so um well it made sense in a couple ways I want to have um folks who booked talent I want to have some of the Bookers uh on this show very very badly because of uh something you touched on right there I mean I've had Eddie brillon twice and Eddie uh you know I mean he talked about how there are so many Comics I mean it's the same thing different department I mean okay you wrote for the show he booked for the book comics for the show uh so many talented Comics that just weren't right for that stage but they were incredible but he couldn't bring them on for whatever reason or another and I mean there's uh you know harmless reasons uh you know the simplest being you know they're they're sensitive ability might have been a little bit too uh as the you saying the old days a little too blue or whatever but um right you know there were Comedians and I'm I'm super curious I want to talk to because I'm a huge music guy I I would love to talk to um some of the people who booked music hacks on the show for that very reason like you know was there a was there a certain voice of of obviously genre you guys did everything but no I I what you're saying makes perfect sense and is extremely insightful um like your brethren uh you know you downplay uh many of the words that you say but no that's fascinating to me um there's a couple uh places that I want to go before we finish up here um oh hey okay so I said this to Joe after Joe and I I fully had the realization I found out that Joe was working for The Tonight Show moments before I hit the record button and I was overjoyed for him because it's like oh that's fantastic um yeah um and and again I love this evolutionary thing where you know letter German folk are now doing other things in the world in big things and you guys are doing big things congratulations to you on that by the way oh thank you so much no problem then about 45 minutes after the interview I sent him an email it's like wait a second do I actually have like a through line like a pitch line to The Tonight Show and he's like well I do the monologue and all that kind of stuff it's sort of yeah I wanted to I told this with Stephen weiner on last week's episode and I wanna I wanna throw it at you um this gives you some insight as to the insane person I am um you know sports fans do fantasy booking you know this Fighter versus that fighter who would win Ali or Tyson you know that that kind of a thing uh comic book fans do the same thing what happened if Thor fought Superman that kind of a thing I I do I do Late Show fantasy booking that that kind of stuff late night TV kind of stuff um one of the moments I loved so much and I don't know if you'll remember this you're probably a page when it happened um Dave would call up especially in the early years he would call up Carson yeah my my uh my opinion any chance he got um would he would he would call up Carson and and do something one night he called up Carson and said hey can we use stump the band and um and so I'm gonna I'm gonna throw something at you that's just you know take it leave it you know call me I am a fool so so don't feel any obligation whatsoever yeah other than me just throwing this out there I have this fantasy if you want to call it that uh Fallon calling up Letterman real time just like he did to Johnny it's The Tonight Show in the late like just I just to me that just seems right and asking him permission to use elevator races and then maybe the celebrity whoever is on The Tonight Show has an elevator race in the same building with the celebrity whoever's on Seth that night or whatever and they haven't like I just I love the idea of the Symmetry between shows and I'm not just saying this for vanity just to throw out to a Tonight Show writer you know my idea um is there any this is my question for you is there any Nostalgia of the fact that you do work for famously the institution that David Letterman wanted to work for his entire life and said something even better happened with Late Show which changed the entire industry now you're working for that franchise um you know I I is there any Nostalgia are you present right now knowing that holy cow there's a real history here that I've moved from this oh my God over to this franchise oh um yes yes that is very cool but it's more that um yes that's the short answer I also as as you said earlier working in 30 Rock yes is just it looks like it's magic is it magic it I mean you know when I was growing up because I was such a fan of Saturday Night Live and then if you think about the biggest comedy movies at that point were all written directed and starring SNL Alum that for me 30 Rock was and is the you know the epicenter of the comedy World yep so like to be there now um and to be able to walk through those doors is amazing um one during the summer right before we started like I think it was a a two-week break uh Jimmy uh bought champagne for everyone and you know we had a champagne toast and he had just come off the show finished taping the show so we used the studio which is empty next door what is that that's where Dave taped late night yep that was the first time I was ever in I've never I'd never seen it I it's funny I was telling these uh two women that I work with and they are so bored to death of my stories about working for Dave uh but I but I was saying to them um I'm saying like we're standing five feet from where Dave's desk was um you know like that to me yeah again as as much as I I loved working for Late Show to me late night was the thing yes and like to be able to stand in that place is crazy um and then you know like to Joe and I were talking about this because like then I'm looking at where the blue doors are and I'm thinking well that's where Andy Kaufman walked through after the Jerry Lawler Lawler Incident That's where Mulligan's actually standing there um yeah that's it that's it and uh which reminds me of something else I should mention but we do like uh but you know that those were the blue doors where Dave would throw the football or whatever against the door of uh where when they were taping live at five and like that Corridor I mean Dave kind of that show had kind of had that Muppet Show even though but you know I might be driving them up again that was the that mentality was back then about leg butts going the hallway and let's talk to the page and let's do all these things so when I go to the to to Jimmy studio and I walk down that Corridor I can't walk down that Corridor without just getting knocked out by it you know it's just it's just really really I mean it's a hallway but you know if you at no and if if Dave was as important to you um as it was to me that Carter was you know so much history took place right there so um it's it really is remarkable so for both things like to be able to to have written for the late show and now the Tonight Show is I mean I don't know how else to say it but it's an honor I mean it's I don't know how else to put it it's like I think about like you know especially because the the late shows began so long ago like I think about like you know like my dad had said to me I wrote for Jackie Gleason yes where I wrote for Lucille Ball yeah or you know so to be able to and look I'm under you know no Illusions here I was the smallest part of that world I feel fortunate that I could say that I'm a part of Dave's Legacy it's all Dave yeah however small apart I played and it was small I just feel you know so monumentally honored to have said well you know I was there and like this the way I feel now at The Tonight Show I mean I really do I mean um it's um I you know not everyone gets to do this I would love to I would love to sit here and tell you I was able to do this because I'm so gifted or so talented I'm not yeah I'm really not um so when I look back I'm thinking like you know I I don't say to myself like man I'm really good but I was able to do this I say holy I am so fortunate and um so it's you know even when you have a bad day then you say like what are you complaining about you know it's like how bad I'm writing jokes for a living um so it's it's I mean it it's it's it's a gift it really is um I I there's no better place to kind of wrap up or get close to wrapping up than than that um I appreciate the gratefulness that you have uh in this so much um I guess I'm trying to think you kind of threw a curveball at me there Lee because it's just it's just what a perfect little bow that you've just tied on this episode uh I have many other things I would like to ask you I think I'm going to table them for now uh yeah will you come back and can we do this absolutely fantastic so many ideas I want to get writers who work together on here kind of simulcast and and show questions out and just let that go and just I can sit back and just uh Revel um I want to get writers who never worked together before you know I think it'd be kind of fun to have you know um you know uh you know like like an O'Donnell and a Joe for for you know or Donald and you kind of a thing I'd love to to make that happen as well and just see the things that are the same so things are different all that kind of stuff please know how appreciated you are you are so on brand when you diminish and talk about how smaller parts you are you're you're on brand for everybody who worked for Dave uh that just seems to be one of the things including from Dave himself who does the same thing um you're so on brand but you need to understand how appreciate you are I hope you do thank you I'm going to do a quick outro and then uh we'll see or get my private Leaf that's okay sounds great thank you okay one second here um there it is ladies and gentlemen um I mean this is why I do this show is for conversations like this I would do it uh if we had no audience whatsoever uh shockingly it looks like uh the audience is growing I can't believe that I'm so excited about that uh because it just means that we're gonna do more of them and I hope that you're enjoying it if you are we would love a like a share a subscribe I cannot wait for the time that I don't have to ask that anymore and I can just focus this part on like contests of things that we're giving away and all sorts of fun things that we're going to do in the community uh we've got a uh because I am an old man we've got a Facebook group um I'm not exactly sure how else to to get us to Corral us all together to enjoy this stuff together but um uh you know please feel free to join the the Facebook group the show of course we have one sponsor on this show uh the Letterman podcast is brought to you in part by the hello Deli Rupert G and the hello Deli uh go to hellodashdaily.com if you want any official Late Show with David Letterman merchandise or Rupert merchandise he packs it carefully lovingly himself um if you ask him really nicely your T-shirt your mug whatever it is if you ask ask him really nicely he might add onions to that order this has been Lee Ellenberg a phenomenal phenomenal episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisholm coincidentally I am Mike Chisholm thank you and good night dude thank you so much oh my God my pleasure my pleasure overcoat and Underpants