Mark Malkoff

Welcome once again to the Letterman podcast. My name is Mike Chisholm. I will be the ringmaster of this cavalcade of fun and interest. Of course, the fun and interest will be to a select few, but those of us were scrappy and our numbers are collecting as this community in the the love of David Letterman company. This community is growing and it's so much fun to watch this thing evolve. I am so honored and blessed and grateful to be a part of the community, never mind one who hosts the show. The show is not about me though, even though I love Dave and I've got this enthusiasm for him. The show is my job as as I see it is to be a conduit for insight, a conduit for silliness, a conduit for some stories about David Letterman and company. I have an amazing guest that we are going to bring on here momentarily. Mark Malkoff, I said to him early on, we didn't do much of a pre-interview.

I said to him early on, I'm going to have a very tough time balancing the questions that I ask today because of course this is a Letterman podcast and and he worked for Dave and company for a year and has had many brushes with the show in all sorts of ways. He has been in the audience for some milestone occasions including what might be my very favorite episode of the Late Show ever, which was the tribute episode to Johnny Carson. But that segues into the other part of the scale that I'm having a tough time negotiating. I want to ask him, this guy has hosted the Carson podcast for nearly 400 episodes over the last few years and and I am very curious as to how that ride has gone and asking him for advice as the Carson podcast kind of starts to move into its next phase, which I think is ending, but we'll talk to him about that.

I need to I want to ask him questions about that, but I want to keep it about Dave as well. Mark Malkoff, thank you very much for taking time out of your insane schedule to come and be with us, our audience at the Letterman podcast. This is great. I mean, for the last 8 years, I consistently ask people to be guests on my podcast. So, first of all, we're talking about something that I know about, that I like to talk about, and that that's good cuz a lot of the interviews can be kind of generic and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm saying. But, yeah, when I got when you asked me to do this, I was like, absolutely 100%. So, I admire what you're doing. Thanks very much, Mark. Now, before before we get into the Letterman stuff, I'm going to I'm going to plug you as hard as I possibly can when it comes to the fact that you and I are very very similar. You may not know that yet, but that's cuz I don't have a TED Talk.

I don't have I don't have a TED Talk that that kind of shows who I am. For anybody out there, as soon as this podcast is over, of course, don't stop listening now. I mean, God, that would be crazy. But, when the podcast is over, jump onto the YouTubes, find Mark's TED Talk. And you know, he is a guy who I can I can very much relate to this. When he sets his sights on something, he goes for it. He goes for it in in in a kind, polite, yet tenacious way, and is not afraid to think outside the box. Mark is an incredible personality. I would almost call you, Mark, I I I mentioned this, we were on another show a few weeks back on the Late Night Play Set, you know, shout out to J Ryan and Nicole Ryan at the Late Night Play Set. I I almost call you a positive, optimistic Andy Kaufman in in in the way that you are almost a performance artist in some of the things that you have done in your life, and you talk about that in your TED Talk. Have you always been the guy that thinks a little bit askew and wants to live in an IKEA for a week or wants to live on an airplane for an extended period of time and do these crazy uh eccentric kind of stunts, or is that something that uh that that that evolved?

I was like that as a kid. I was constantly curious. Could this happen? Could I pull this off? And I always wanted to do my own thing, which the video project So, let me I just I remember just grade school. Um it was first day of kindergarten actually, after um the teacher telling my mom Mark doesn't belong in public school, cuz I wanted to do my own thing, and I just was curious, and I just I couldn't just I was just bored pretty much. Um but I uh yeah, it was just very um I guess strong-willed. And uh for what It's one of those things, yeah, I guess starting from there and going, it has been one of those things where if there's something I want, I will push it politely as far as I can. Um and sometimes it's worked out amazingly. It has a lot. I've been fortunate, and I fell on my face so many times, but I have a really tough time just doing things.

Um I don't want to say normally, but like some people that I talk to, when they when they set out to do something, their their their goal or their what they want is so minute, and even if they just raised it a little bit, it would make the product so much better. But I think I'm just wired that way to do that, whereas other some other people just um I don't know, they don't like asking for stuff, or just No. No. I I don't like no. I've been rejected on the Carson Podcast by hundreds of people uh of guests. It's not fun, but it's part of the process, and I think um I'm just kind of I I know that. I've experienced it, so I yeah, I'm able to do it.

I uh I I I've got goosebumps all over me right now. I'm a student of personal development anyway. I host a a men's mental wellness podcast um as well. And and and and so this what you're saying speaks to me. I think it speaks to a lot of us in this audience in particular. I think um I think about Dave and company. I think about the company that they built, you know, at NBC, but then also when Worldwide Pants became its own thing. Um you had a lot of very powerful misfits who came together. And and productive misfits who who who just had these personalities that might have been the way you described, people who may not have always fit into the general populace, but have this eccentric creative uh drive or outlet or skills or talents. Um and and want to do something a little bit different, march to the beat of a different drum. Was it like that when you worked there? I guess. I mean, it's one of those things I don't try to be different.

I If anything, when I was growing up, I tried to fit in and be normal so that I wouldn't get picked on, but I just I couldn't figure that out. And I always did my own thing. Um yeah, what happened for sure, I think like to some people when they got there, it's like, "Oh, this is This is a job and this is kind of cool. I'm I'm here." But the thing is is that I mean, I I was I wanted to work on the show or be in that building um from day one on CBS. Even before that, I was going to the late night tapings in 6B.

And I'm like, "I want to get hired on this show. This would be amazing." I was really into Saturday Night Live, either of those, but um and I'd go to both when I was in high school. But but but Letterman, I just was like, "How do these people like during the breaks get jobs and get to do this?" And I was just obsessed with the show. I was going to the tapings. I um when I got to when I got here uh to New York, I just remember the early years of the show, um going and just wait waiting just outside sometimes if I wanted to meet a comedian by the stage door or um I just remember talking to interns that worked at Letterman or anybody that worked there for advice on how to get hired or anything. It was like this giant mystery like what was behind this the uh the door entrance for the stage door. Um what were the what did everything look like backstage cuz you pretty much kept the cameras away from showing everything, how the magic tricks were done. So I don't know.

I can't tell you how many times that I I I was just in my mind working there and it was one of those things where and when sometimes when people ask me for advice for TV and stuff, I've been fortunate. There is no way that I would have been able to make that happen. I tried and of course the way it happened was a complete accident. And it wasn't me knocking on doors, which is pretty much everything I do. Um is it okay if I tell you how I got hired?

Absolutely, please do. And by the way, what you're talking about here, the way you're setting up what you're about to say, um the community that has already embraced our show and and whatnot, we can all relate to what you're talking about. That fascination, that curiosity, that um almost it's almost like a magnet pulling. Um and and and so what you're setting up here is beautiful. So So please do, yeah. Yeah, I mean I was at show number one on August 30th, '93 for Dave on the second row. When my my friend Dan Brown got tickets cuz like I sent postcards out and then I'll get to how I got hired. Sent the postcards out like everybody I knew that I was friendly with, um I would just increase my chances cuz you could most of the shows were they they said that they they were strict. I have no idea. One person per address or name so postcard. So but Dan got back from um a trip to Michigan and he called me and I just started And I'm not making this up, like literally screaming and like running down the streets with my arms in the air, jumping. I mean, I know it's hard for some of the people that weren't watching this show back then, but that Dave that build up to Dave taking it was incredible.

I mean, the whole summer the whole summer everywhere you looked. Yep. It was a media frenzy. So, I I I have all this history of going to the show and and all this stuff and then what happened is I was an intern on a couple TV shows and I was on the an intern on actually a show that Dave did he did a voice which was Spin City which is Michael J. Fox's show. So, as an intern there was about to graduate. I was just very petrified and like how do you get hired in television? I mean, it was I don't people were very nice to me and encouraged me, but it still seemed like very hard to break in and get hired on anything. And somebody I knew at Spin told me they had a friend that worked on Al Franken show Late Line which was a like a I think it was just less than a year at Kaufman Astoria and I went over there to the office and then I got to see the set and and I I never seen a sitcom set like that.

I was like this is I like I just like my excitement again through the roof and then basically I met her and then she passed me on to somewhere else over there to do if if I wanted to do audience over there. The audience department helped seat basically a page and he said right now there's no room, but if if somebody calls in sick or whatever I'll call you which never happened, but he did say but I think I have but it seems like right now that there's another show. He He say what show that I might be able to get you an interview with. And I was one of those things where I never in a million years would have guessed that that would that that would just kind of like come to me. I mean, but then it's like Here you go, your biggest wish served up on a silver silver platter for you.

Still have to get by all these levels. So, I'm like I put on my suit. Um I go to the were you at the time, Mark? 22 20 something 20 Just a kid. I went over there and um you get off the elevators on the eighth floor, which used to be where the writers were. And it's like the worldwide pants um sign and then some plants. And they um buzz me in and I went into David K's office, which was the the audience coordinator. This is when David K David K was there for years. This is when he was first taking over the audience department. This is a name that's going to be mentioned on the podcast a lot. David K definitely was a personality within within the pants family. It was what David had to do and I was there for was extremely challenging. What they the Letterman people, especially Dave, would have their expectations for him. It never been done on a TV show before like it was very complicated. We can talk about it if you want. But anyway, You're talking you know, just a just a to give a tease, you're talking about the the audience for lack of a better term indoctrination in in selecting making sure it's a good audience making sure it's an audience that suits Yeah.

the sensibility of the show. That's what you're talking about, right? I am and it is one of those things and I'll get back to my interview with David K that it it's just so hard for anybody behind that desk to do this show when it's not a good audience. Like some hosts are better than others at getting through it. But I've mentioned on the Carson podcast, they just I mean especially for Dave, his um his uh relationship with the audience and have the level of the decibel of laughter and it making and breaking the show and him just feeling confident out there. It it It was definitely I don't want to say it was unhealthy, but it was definitely It was a fixation to say the least. There's going to be some bad audiences, but I mean it was one of those things where every show, I mean I've worked on them, they all would have bad audiences once in a while, but I think Dave just had the hardest time um with it.

And they brought us in just anybody that anybody that sent a postcard um that if they sent in would get tickets. I mean um they get the tickets and then we would they would get in regardless, but it was kind of trying to figure out how many of the actual fans there were I we can't say fans. I was told my first day that they're called Late Show Viewers. Um we can't and I get that. I I get that. That's creating a culture. Like in the professional wrestling business, Vince McMahon doesn't call it professional wrestling. He calls it sports entertainment. He doesn't call it the champion he doesn't call it the the title belt. He calls it the championship.

There were a bunch of those things, so I Yeah. So um we yeah, we just led by David Letterman and it was very it was extremely extremely hard what they were asking for and as they should their expectations were like sky high and Yep. um they and Dave's the first one to admit he expects a lot from everyone, but he expects more from himself, but it's it's it it was tough. I was there and then yeah, we the thing was just try to get the audiences better, try to get people that were there um that watched the show more like a certain amount of those people and then maybe some other people who weren't is um just I don't know, didn't really watch that much. So them in try to get audiences that were better for Dave. And that again a tall order. That's a lot of specific things you're talking about here. We had Eddie Brill on one of our earlier episodes and I mean here's your your your warm-up guy for over a decade and and talking about you know the signals that he would give to people about the audience as he's warming the audience he'd feel things out and and and see how things are going and I I the the balancing act you're talking about you've got people from all over the world. And and nobody in the audience if it's a bad audience wants to you know it's not like they're they're trying to make it that they're a bad audience.

Eddie brought up the subject you know what if half the audience didn't speak great English. You know there right there would be an example and and because of these postcards like you say so so there's all sorts of factors that could lead into a good audience versus a bad audience but the laughter decibel level that Dave was looking for it's almost to the point where a better audience or a more enthusiastic audience is just as or even more important as the written material which also had a very high standard on the show too, right? I talked to Rob Burnett about this and and convinced 100% he said he wasn't sure that Dave would have gone for like the good audience over writing any single day. And if it's a good audience he can he can get by with the weak writing and and making make it funny and I'm not saying the writing was weak by any means but now it was it was that and when he would come out for the pre-show Q&A sometimes once in a once in a while the first person they called on and sometimes it was the only one would ask a dumb question and I think sometimes there were times where when that did happen that Dave I mean what did Colbert when I used to work with him Second City he would tell me they call the audience the beast and it's like this one cohesive thing and if one or two people Yeah cuz they were hard. I mean it was I mean the audience you just never know.

I mean it is so hard doing the comedy when the audience laughing. And that audience just don't know that they're being bad 90 9% of the time. And um it was just hard if you perceive the audience um through the Q&A to be lackluster or if Eddie Brill would tell him when they would he would come out if Eddie would whisper in his ears good audience, bad audience, or just okay, which happens um on most shows with the warm-up like that. And if it wasn't again, just Dave was told what he had to work with and it just it was it was extremely hard when the when it wasn't a um a really good audience with the laughs. You know, I love that we're getting into the weeds on this issue because it shows the it shows the level of quality uh that was expected from the top. And and I mean, people are thinking automatically they think, oh yeah, well, the writing, you know, or all the production, or the technical aspects, or whatnot.

But there's a lot of little things that the average enthusiast wouldn't necessarily think. I don't I don't consider myself a David Letterman fan, I consider myself a David Letterman enthusiast for the same reason. Um you know, we've got our own little little uh eccentricities, and the show certainly had that. The standard for the audience um and it's funny because I mean, I didn't go nearly as many times as you did, uh but every time I went, that indoctrination process um it was extremely specific. And and it's funny from from when I went in '05 to even when I went in 2015, uh very, very, very similar. Um and and and the standard So so even when I uh in in 2015, that that night right there, the night where that's that's me and Dave talking in the audience and the moment got captured. Um even on that night, uh getting into the front row, um when I talked to the audience coordinator beforehand, I was very specific. Oh, by the way, my party and I understand the deal.

We're going to dress sharp, we're going to be enthusiastic and positive, and we're going to be ready to laugh. Not ready to cheer, we're going to be ready to laugh.

Um, these are things that I had known about coming up as an enthusiast. But, those things there, when you got somebody cold from middle America who has no idea, they're just excited to go see the David Letterman Show. Um, you got to teach that to them in a very short period of time. Was that your role? Were you one of the guys who was grab gathering groups of 20 of them at a time and giving that speech to? What was your role when you worked there? to the audience, but it really wasn't when I was there. They weren't They did later if somebody was like really enthusiastic and they thought they'd be a good audience, put like a sticker on them which signified that they'd be sat up sat up front. I mean, if anything, I was just trying to get people going down and just trying to get them in a good mood and get them pumped. But, I mean, subsequently later years, way after I was gone, I mean, I mean, it was always an issue. They had They had to get Alec Baldwin.

I mean, Dave asked Alec Baldwin if he the the I've never seen it, by the way, like a pre-tape on how to be a good audience member. I mean, there's just these people and I've seen them that are so excited to be there that they just forget to laugh. I mean, Carson had these people and it's just it's it was tough and too much clapping was not good either. I mean, every single host wants laughter. That's what they want. Clapping can be good sometimes. It can cover up if the joke bombs. Like Like some shows, everybody claps no matter what. Um, but yeah, it was it was definitely, um, with the with the audience an issue until, um, I'm told, and I've been told this by a lot of people, when Alan Coulter took over, I heard that the And it's probably I mean, there's a a big reason is cuz the audience knows who he is. And they they just recognized him right away. He was on the show all the time.

Yep. And when he apparently, and everybody's told I've had a lot of people when he took over the audiences just got they got better. I mean, it's it's like Ed McMahon would come out and talk to the Carson audience. I mean, it's like you put in the face right there and that's when Dave just couldn't believe how good the audiences were and he was coming out for extended Q&A which is like I couldn't believe like when my friends over there were telling me that Dave would stay out there longer than the two minutes or whatever and extend the show. I mean, that was more near the end. But um Yeah, my encounter with him was like five minutes long. Like it was a really cool experience for me. I I I made him laugh during that. That's like one of the greatest moments of my life is I made David Letterman laugh. And and and it was it was five minutes with just me. Never mind the other guy with the family.

Back in the day, you know, Dave is a creature of habit like Carson and um Dave modeled his career basically on Carson. So, Carson I mean and Dave Dave most of his time his entire NBC 5:30 the music hits in. I mean, no matter what. Yeah, they tape no matter it's like a drum. It's going. It was and it was like that when I was there pretty much 5:30 it went. The guest wasn't there it would it went. And yeah, it it it was definitely with with the audience being there in the real time. It There's real There's some Some of my favorite moments are that they didn't stop tape where as now they would probably stop tape on the shows. Yep. But um the Dave just got loose and then I started I know in post before the show cutting things out here and there and not having it live to tape as much. Most of it was. And um I'm just glad that Dave was having fun. Yeah. Doing that. He wouldn't if he didn't like the audience he wouldn't stay out there for for those whatever minutes. I mean, yeah.

So, when you're this is a fascinating thing to me. Okay. Many times when somebody their dream is okay, I want my dream job. And they go in and they go behind the curtain and they see, you know, how the sausage actually gets made. And then sometimes the luster for the product goes away. For you, and I think I think you and this is another way that you and I are similar, it's for you you worked there. You actually worked for the for for for Letterman and company. Um It was a year. It was a long time ago. But the luster didn't seem to wear off. In fact, the fascination has only gone deeper. You look at the Carson podcast and the body work that you have done there, by the way, is incredible. If any of our audience is a David Letterman fan, um obviously Dave's idol is Johnny Carson. The Carson podcast is worth listening to every episode. They're phenomenal. Mark has done an incredible job on that. He did that after he worked for Letterman. So, you went behind the curtain and yet the fascination just got even that much deeper or the appreciation got much deeper. Is that a fair statement?

I think so. I mean, the thing with Dave and definitely Johnny, there was like this big mystery, like what went on behind the scenes and just the process that they both had. And I just wanted my questions answered for for Carson and stuff and just who was this guy. I think with Dave it's a little bit more this is who he is. Um You know, a shy guy around people he doesn't know, but if he feels comfortable and stuff he can be I mean, he's the funniest guy in the room and just very loyal. But I don't think there's much as much as a mystery as who Carson was behind the scenes and what went on at his show and um I I guess Dave didn't mean Dave did a lot Dave didn't like doing the interviews, but he did a lot of interviews. And that was a little bit of insight. Um With people he trusted, like Costas or Snyder or uh Larry King. I mean, Dave did interviews with people that he he trusted for the most part.

do any interviewing. He might say that's not true, but I mean you can hear it on the Bob Costas. Somebody put this posted it on on YouTube where he's going to be a guest on later to promote the anniversary and he's just like I had I don't want to do this. Um Ted Koppel um I worked at the Colbert Report and Ted Koppel was on and he I don't know, got to talking. And I told him I really liked when he sat down with Letterman. And he said to me he's like yes, but Dave wouldn't let us rerun the show. He would only sign it would only air once. Wow. And um so I I don't know. Anyway, so I I got hired. I interviewed with to put on my green suit. Got hired. It's one of those things like we'll let you know by this date if you're hired. And the date passed. I'm like there's no way. And then it was like 2 days later or something that my roommate at the time was like somebody from Letterman called and they're very like urgent. You need to call them. So, I called him and I was like he's like yeah, I want you to start. And it was like in 2 or 3 days and I'm just like first of all, I just couldn't believe it A, uh two B, um I'm like I had a day job at this other place and I'm like Sure.

I'm not giving 2 weeks. Just I I don't know. It was so hard, but I told them my dilemma. I think that they understood um that I had I didn't have the time. And I mean I was answering the phones. I mean that was basically my thing. I feel like I was easily um well, I was and I wasn't that great at my job, so replaceable. Um but so yeah, then they're like um yeah, you're good to go. Come in. This is your first day. And it was just the most bizarre thing showing up and then they gave me the the laminate or whatever it's called with my name on it with Late Show with around your neck and then um Do you still have it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's on my I posted it on my Instagram a of it and stuff. Um, it was yeah, the first day I just remember going up to the eighth floor and just looking at the offices and just wide wide eyes. Being able to go like in the um kind of like where the rest of the audience is if they had to go to the bathroom normally had to go down the all the steps in that that area that whole way where Dave when he was coming from um the 12th floor he'd take the freight elevator all the way down and then jog through that.

That was one of my questions. One of my questions was did you ever take the freight elevator? No, I never once took the freight I was never asked to there's not even not even remotely close did it come to that but with with with with there I would take the regular elevator if I had to if I was going into to the studio there's a door that's I guess it's just right if you go in the Ed Sullivan Theater a lobby to to the right there's a door that they would unlock for me and then I'd go down there and then I'd be in that kind of that area tunnel where you could walk and you'd see the boiler room. You could walk and you'd see Hal Gurney plaque is on your right. Um, the steps are on then your left which would take you up to where the audience is and um yeah, it was so strange being able to walk around and be backstage. I didn't go backstage a lot but when I did especially like my first couple times I security I think it was Stephanie or someone maybe one of the staffers there's probably a couple people like Mark you you know that you work here that it's okay you can relax.

And um just like being able to see like that where the airlock was and just everything like um when I knew people sometimes I'd go up well that happened a couple times during that year 11 months and 15 days but who's counting. Um, I'd go up to the dressing rooms I'd go up to the dressing rooms to say hi if I knew someone on the show and that I just everything in my mind I'm like I just wanted the answers um what how does it this all work how does this all come together? And um it was really I mean it was exciting for for a for a long time, the work itself was draining. I I mean I could talk about it. It's boring, but at the end of the day we were all just completely exhausted. It would be a a 10-hour day, which isn't like lots of people work 10-hour days, but it was just it was very mind is on that entire 10 hours. You're going on, right? Like the machines never never stopping at that point though.

We were on the phones and the phones sometimes people had tickets were calling us. And literally there were times where there was an hour wait where they people would have to be on an hour to get to us. We tried not to do that. Sometimes it was a 10-minute wait. Yeah. And it was like it was just constant and then people not happy that they had to wait all that time. But it was like if you wanted to get a drink or go to the I mean it was like And then it was just so much enthusiasm that you had to show to these people. Yeah. And then it just um it was yeah, and that was try I me personally and everyone else I think just by the end we were were drained from that a 10-hour day of doing that and then um I mean every but everything else other than that I did I pretty much enjoyed. I just remember like the being at the last anniversary show they ever did the fifth the fifth Yep. anniversary on CBS. I just remember after facing the stage I was by the the doors all the way to I guess would have been the yeah, the left.

So you were watching that as a staff member? I thought that staff members weren't supposed to watch the show. Okay. All right. No. You know what? Okay, I actually have this wrong and I'll tell you what I did. If I if the audience department they would let watch, but no. I mean tons of people No, they would like the staff unless you were Lori Diamond or Heather, one of Dave's assistants or Eddie Brill or Bill Scheft No, you couldn't. I mean there were people that didn't get to go to see the show that were there for years until the final show and they went down and never had seen the show before. So Arthur Kelly and I talked about that. I mean Arthur would answer the phones on Dave's floor for forever and and and yeah, he he saw very few shows except for the ones that he was actually Yeah, it's it was just very different. I mean Dave just would always and this includes the audience. It would throw him off. He he said apparently if he saw somebody he knew and it was always like if you worked on the show you were never allowed to be in the come back to be in the audience. If he he just didn't want to see anyone that would possibly throw him off. I actually watched the fifth from the balcony mainly and that's I remember that so well. That was such an incredible show. I loved that anniversary. But the one I was watching right?

What? Clip show, right? Yeah, it was like Larry "Bye Melman" in memory. Um and then he comes out Um Right. Yeah, I think it was Seinfeld. Pretty Was it Seinfeld that came out for the walk-on and I don't know. I think it was Seinfeld. But it was like this top 10 list where it was like every celebrity, every like A-lister after A-lister and one was DiCaprio Leonardo DiCaprio and that that gentleman you probably know his name. He's like the large um bald gentleman who they would put on sometimes. He was yeah, big and he just who you're talking about. He um What's his name? Yeah, he came on as one but it was just you had to be there. It was incredible. I was thinking cuz um sometimes I'd be by the double doors. I remember there was another taping that I was just thinking about which is when the J.

Geils Band was on um and they I don't think they they they weren't going to come back or hadn't done an appearance but they played like "Centerfold" or some song that like everyone in the audience knew or just remember like dancing around and everyone that but I was there for that on the side. I mean I would go in when I wanted to. If there's somebody I I to see um I would do that. And a lot of times after the, um, after the Thursday, the first taping, I could well, if I wanted to, and I would try to, and I always go to the balcony for the second show and watch. Um, and then sometimes I was a little tired or whatever, but, um, most of the time I would try to go up there and and watch cuz I'm like, how many people get to do this?

Yeah, you're describing a dream come true to a vast majority of our audience right now. That's a dream come true kind of a scenario you were in for 11 months and how many days? 16. They asked me I was going to leave after like, I think it was 11 months and then they asked if I'd stay on a little bit longer. And they and I'm like, yeah, sure. I mean, whatever you need. I mean, I gave them two weeks, so I think I guess it would have ended at 11 months and they asked me to stay on. And the only thing that was, um, noteworthy of me staying on is that I was in the staff crew photo that year. Oh, that's awesome. That That would have been Where Dave comes out, this is on the stage, where Dave comes out to say hello and then it's all of you waiting for him. It was like he was waiting for him. What's that? You still have that photo? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. We waited for him. We're all standing there and, um, he was the last person to be there. I think we waited like 5 minutes, something like that. And he comes in and like there's people that are applauding. This is like our boss and like people are just There are people there that just I mean, they they I mean, pretty much collectively they just loved the guy.

Yeah. And Dave just is not comfortable. That's all. Every people are applauding and Dave literally is like this, does that with his finger. They take the photo, they take like two photos and Dave is like the first one out. Gone. I just remember it being such a hot day and being in the Sullivan Theater was always the best when it was a hot day because it was so cool. And I just remember, um, I remember that, but you know, Dave had been doing it for so long and it's just I think it's almost anybody that that has a show like that for that long. They they start as one thing where like they're hanging out with the cat the the NBC he was hanging out with everyone and just it slowly the demands of the job and just everything take over and it just gets a little bit the individual gets more and more closed off. Sure. But I mean it's still a low. I mean he he definitely had his inner circle and he didn't owe anybody anything. We are I'm so many people were there just because it was Dave.

I mean they they didn't like the a lot of them were just like they don't like the work the hours or anything. I have to say the vacation paid vacation was definitely why some people and the health insurance were some people that that were fed up saying but most of it was just the prestige of that and um it was exciting there were some good there were definitely good people. There were a lot of people in my opinion at CBS that and I've talked about this on the Carson podcast.

There were I the peop- there were people that just I never saw smile in in in a a year 11 months and 15 15 days. It was a tough environment some it it's some places on some floors and there's no camaraderie in terms of that everyone's isolated on a different floors and the Colbert peeps in the Ed Sullivan Theater now still go through it. They've tried to help rectify it a little bit but everybody now there's people that don't see each other from for months that are friends on the show that are on different floors and it was just it it just when when they were on 14 at the 30 Rock yeah and all together there is something about that spirit like when I was at the Colbert Report we it was basically like a townhouse layout and we were all with each other. I mean the writers were actually on the the very top level so maybe not them as much but um but it was still like we all were together. I mean it was it was just that type of thing and then when they went to the Ed Sullivan Theater I mean it's just it's what the building is very comfortable for the host. Dave loved how comfortable he was at that thing and there was no other shows that were taping. Like he didn't have to worry. He did the show at 57th Street at CBS, which never would have happened.

No. He just needed a place that was his own. Yeah. And I was very anti um I don't want to say anti, but definitely concerned about Colbert going over there for two reasons. One, people being on different floors, which is still it's a tough they but they've they've, you know, that it's always going to be a struggle for the layout. But the second thing is and and Colbert and company wisely fixed this was how many um seats were were um Oh, the sightlines. It was it was Yeah. When I was there and I would watch this, I was like there there is no this is the worst um if he wants a good audience, this is the worst layout. Yeah. It I mean, it was No one ever said that, but I would just look at it and I'm like I just it I would in my head I'm like go if you went to like a regular studio like he had and just didn't make it bigger like in LA when he did that week um from this CBS um Television City.

Yep. I just felt like the audiences would have been so much better. That was Carson's last uh television appearance was that trip you're talking about, right? so I just thought the audience it would have been the audiences would have been so much better. Or if you could find a facility in New York that had that is just hard getting space. Sure. Um where where Dave where if he went to ABC or CBS, he would have to like you know, be around other shows and other the offices would be would um be um yeah, around other shows, but um yeah, once Colbert took care of that the obstructed stuff, I was I was I was very very happy that they they did that. It's funny Um, folks who are would would fancy themselves as enthusiasts of Dave, there's many levels of it. Um, and one of the levels is is to the point where you're at, and I want to move to this a little bit. I'm going to treat this I'm going to treat this podcast like you're never going to come back, but I'm begging you please be part of this community. We would love to have you back and tell stories about this to come back. I've had people I mean, I've had so many peeps, especially with Letterman, people been really nice to come back. I think I built Shaftan like three times.

Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, he's he's a legend. on our list. We can't wait to I'm hoping to get him on the show. Bill Shaftan is phenomenal. Yeah, he um yeah, he answered everything I wanted to know. It's like the kind of like a mystery about that place and just everything behind the scenes, especially at NBC. It was really great um to hear. So so um but the levels of fandom are or not fandom but enthusiasm for Dave uh one gal, she's actually uh Rupert's girlfriend, her name's Irene. She's going to be on the podcast. She saw the show 47 times. And and to the point where she knew where the good seats were versus the seats where you're going to just be frustrated the entire show, and there were lots of them. They were like landmines all over the place It's true. where where where you thought, you know, you thought it was going to be a good seat, and then suddenly the camera two or whatever rolls right in front of you, and and and you're you're watching the monitor the entire show if you want to see anything.

Um, but I mean, again, I look back at that, and that's part of the excitement for those who are like a couple rungs up the ladder, you're just happy to be there. You're almost grateful because getting a ticket, especially in the time you were there, holy crap, the time you were there, there was like a two- or three-year waiting list, right? There were I I told the story the other day um that I remember somebody named Diana Coulter called in for tickets, and she'd written off the postcard and like we have an I don't even know this or announcers Alan Coulter, and she said, "He's my father." And she was calling from Northwestern, and that is how people that worked on the show they had to go through the postcard system. Wow. I'm to even see the show. It was the especially that the first year. I mean it was before I was there, but like the first year and a half or two years the show was like A friendly it's like the hottest ticket in town um to see that show. It was um And that was just one of those things where if you have a bad seat, Dave comes out for the Q&A and it's like so exciting and they don't you don't know most people they don't know that it's going to be a bad seat until the music kicks in and they come out and then it's like, "Oh, I'm going to be watching the monitor for the next whatever."

Um there's two places I want to go before we finish this. I want to be very uh cognizant of your time. Dude, I do three I do three I've done three hour episodes. Oh, and that's my dream. Like I could do this Yeah, I'm I'm an interviewer. saying for the audience it's probably better less is more, but I'm happy to come back. I think like Okay. My one of the penultimate um Carson podcast cuz we're leaving um that that show's ending shortly. Yeah. Is right now it's it's a three hour show, but I think it we're going to probably maybe edit it down to maybe 2:30 2:45. the Carson episode? It is and I'm so lucky after six years to get get him. And it's one of those things where the episode is warranted to be that long. It was that good. We talk about Dave. I mean he has Dave's NBC set. He has the Velcro suit as he showed that the Velcro suit to me. So And Carson's he's got Carson's set his last set.

the set from um the last 10 years. Yeah. The desk, the chairs, like the couch. I mean it's like it the curtains. It's it's an incredible he's the turban the Carnac turban. So yeah, James is going to be on with Carol Burnett on um Thursday for the second time after eight years she's coming back to the podcast. So we have her on Thursday. That's amazing. Following week we have Richard Lewis who took me eight and a half years to get to say. WOW. And um so that was great. And then um Yeah, we talked about Dave a bunch on that and then we have you did. They came up together. Yeah. Comedy store guys. Yeah. Yeah, so we and then I had Richard Lewis and it's one of those things, I don't know what you when you reach out to people, sometimes I'm like, do you have 20 minutes? Cuz honestly, they'll only give you 20 minutes, I'll take it, but most of the time they want to keep talking. Yeah. And if they do, I just let it ride. But it was one of those things with Richard Lewis, I think I asked, um, for 20 minutes and, um, shout out to Jeff Abraham uh, Abraham for making that Richard Lewis thing happen. I couldn't believe it. He's like the best publicist and such a good, like, uh, comedy historian. So he, um, yeah, I got Richard Lewis and I was like, if I had 20 minutes, it's 20. And he just wanted to keep talking and so it was an hour and 20.

Oh, that's awesome. And he just wanted to keep And it was great. I mean, it was wonderful, but I'm always at the same time like, did they want to stop? But like, um, but yeah. It it was good and then James and then we may or may not Um, James might be the final episode. I'd be happy if he's the final, but there's, um, there's a couple possibilities of people that are still out there. David Letterman will not be one of them. Okay. I've tried, um, for eight years to get him, um, I'm not going to say anything else other than I've I've invited him. Yeah, it's through the proper channels Yep. um, many times and I he what can you do? I I asked him and he he that's it. He he doesn't like people he doesn't know a lot of times. I've been told this. I don't know if this is true, but he doesn't He's stupid. He's been doing so much more press. I'm My guess is he's a different person. I mean, I think he definitely is. Cuz that was back when he like was doing the show and stuff. But he's going on with new people and stuff, but I don't know. It might be so too hard for him to talk about Carson just because it it was like his mentor and might get emotional or whatever.

You're dovetailing into one of questions here. This is great cuz I like So so I'm just going to set the stage. My in my top five episodes of Late Show of all time Oh, yeah. one or two the one that goes between one or two is the one in 2005 where the tribute episode to Johnny Carson. Peter Lassally is the guest. Doc Severinsen as the musical guest or directing the musical presentation that night. You were there in the audience. You not only worked for Letterman and the fascination with late night and the things that you loved continued to the point where you've hosted 300 and somewhat episodes of the Carson podcast. You love that stuff. You're a big Johnny guy. You were at the tribute episode. Did you know it was a tribute episode? Did you do everything in your power to get in that audience? Was there luck involved? How did that happen? What was that night like for you? And talk as much as you want about it as my favorite late late shows of all time.

down and like it two days before someone and I just want to go a guy that really likes Late Night and is fascinated. I mean, there are people on staff like Rick Sheckman who knows everything. I mean, the TV shows that I've worked on a lot of the people that are I don't want to say the biggest fans but the people that that enjoy the show on the same level as the biggest fans are people that work there. I've seen it time and time again. Um so I I knew that that it was probably going to be a no, but I'm I always like to ask and I there's somebody at the show that was not David Letterman that I asked if I could come to the Letterman the the Carson tribute. And I I guess I probably sounded pretty desperate or really eager or whatever and they didn't want to do it, but I just was persistent and then they said that they would let me watch in the balcony and and pretty much um sneak me in which they essentially did and I was still told that I you can't tell anybody about this. At the time I didn't of course tell anybody.

Yeah, the statute of limitations has uh has since expired so we're good now. They couldn't put me in the actual balcony seat because that would have meant that I was seeing the show so they had a fold it fold up chair at the very back of the balcony next to it like right in front of the soundboard and that's where I watched the show and I did not care. I just wanted to be in the same room. I mean I didn't yes Peter Lassally it was um yeah Doc and then Ed Shaughnessy was Johnny's drummer Tommy Newsom was there and yeah it was one of those things like when Dave after the opening remarks all those jokes were in my car's and it's like Well, I was going to ask you there's a question. Did you call that? Did you did you recognize any of that? No, I should have. I I pro The entire monologue was written by Johnny Carson that night. It was and then when he said that I was like but it makes sense because some of the jokes didn't fit in terms of being topical at the time or some of the things and I just didn't I don't know why I didn't I didn't notice that. It should have been uh a little bit more obvious. I think yeah Dave came out before the show and I said this on the Carson podcast um and he just asked if everybody um that he said Peter's very nervous.

He's never done anything like this and if you make him feel very welcomed and be a good audience for him and yeah. You just named a a gentleman who and I I use that term it very intentionally. You just named a gentleman that if I could have a conversation with um anybody he'd be in my top five. Peter Lassally cuz I'm a huge Craig Ferguson fan as well um and I'm I'm not afraid to call myself a fan of Craig uh an enthusiast of Dave of course and then the reverence I have for Johnny Carson. You've got Peter Lassally who is a bridge to generational hosts, generational audiences of comedy. And from everything that I've heard, and I've talked to a lot of people who knew Peter, very kind and sweet. As as kind and sweet as he was impressive when it came to his job and the sensibilities that came with that job. I don't know if you could be in entertainment at that level and be as kind as that man, from what I've been told.

You've you you you've talked to him. Peter Lassally is a guy who just a legend. He was I I couldn't believe that I was going to interview him in his office at CBS when he was still at Ferguson. Like yeah, I just I put in an email. I think I write a good email. Didn't even know if he was going to get it, but somebody said this was his email. And then within like 15 minutes um his I got a call and it's his assistant Chris. Um hold for Peter Lassally. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. I'm not ready for this. And yeah, he we chatted a bunch. He was so nice. And yeah, we set a date for me to to I think it was like 2 weeks later for me to go to Television City to go. And I was like, I was so nervous. He was in my easily in my top wish list of guests. Yep. And I knew he didn't do much of that stuff, many of the interviews, but I think it helped that I had some people that I already interviewed that he knew.

Sure. And we uh it was a really good time. I think I mean he enjoyed it because I could tell he enjoyed it cuz whenever I'd be in LA, he would invite me back to see him. And I I'd stop by his office. Mark, what a sentence you just uttered. Like, are you kidding me? Like like like Yeah. would have told 22-year-old Mark that hell yeah, every time I go back to LA there's going to be a time every time I go back to LA Peter Lassally is going to invite me over. LIKE, WHAT A SENTENCE YOU JUST SAID. It was very nice. He couldn't have been kinder. I I never have expectations when I meet people. Yeah. I Sometimes I hope, you know, you hope. Yep. People, but yeah, he was couldn't have been nicer. I am I asked him to do a second episode of the Carson podcast and I'm like, I I will never ask you again to do one of these. But he said he would do it and in both cases uh when he did the podcast, during the podcast, there there are some things he said, you know, this is just for you alone. So he he said I I trust your judgment for editing. So I would I would be There were just a few things, not a lot of things that were like, probably I should take this out. Um the episodes are still phenomenal. But Oh, absolutely.

But yeah, that was But I felt honored he trusted me enough that he would tell me stuff. I know that feeling um because I've become friendly with folks who work for Dave, who exact same thing. Like there are some folks who work for Dave who I just Oh, yeah, I I say their name and and no problem at all and all that. Then there are some who I I've become friendly with that I don't even until they throw it out publicly, I'm not throwing it out publicly and and some of those things. And what a thing to be able to have the trust of some of these people that you looked up to. That alone is is is an amazing thing. You said something again I had the personal development thing that I that that that I love so much. I think this is a secret to life. When you look up to somebody, don't have any expectations of what it will be like when you meet them, just accept them for who they are and enjoy the present as it unwraps itself, not trying to predict what's in the box. I think is a real key to relationships with some of these people. Uh you'd agree with that, obviously.

I think so and I I mean, there's definitely some people that I sat down with over the eight years that cuz I before pandemic, I would try to get out to LA and do them in person cuz it wasn't a Zoom thing, recording wasn't a thing, but then um it would have made my life a lot easier, but I would go to certain people that had the reputation for being uh if it wasn't difficult prickly jerks people. And uh A little bit persnickety. They were all um they were always so pleasant to me, and part of that's is probably just cuz I, you know, I was I don't work for them. I was coming in they were on their best behavior since I'm interviewing them. Yeah. But uh and I I I think also it and I I know you you have this, too, is that when I would sit down with them, I wasn't asking the same cookie-cutter boring questions that they're always asked. Yeah. I mean I I I admire people that can just do this stuff without research and be interesting with the guest and stuff.

And I've winged it a couple times when I have had to, but I just can't do I mean I want to know as much as I possibly can. Yes. The research, I want to know what I'm going to ask, and then and then if if they want to go in a different direction, throw it out, that's fine, and I'll go wherever they want to go, and sometimes that's the best stuff. But I I think when they see how much prep I've done, I think that also is a big thing where they relax with me. And then sometimes, this has happened many times, where we stop recording, and then they said, "Can I tell you something?" And then everything that they couldn't say on the tape Yeah. they start telling me. Nothing bad about Johnny, but just other stuff that they wanted to talk about. Inside baseball. Yep. believe how people would open up to me. Yes. Um there's certain guests that I reached out to who the public didn't know were sick, and they had all these things, and like I just couldn't believe that their relatives or handlers trusted me enough with this information.

I didn't tell anybody that that these people were not were sick or like on their last legs, sadly. Uh but people I I might only guess is I have zero agenda. I had zero When I started this, I had no agenda other than to get my questions answered about Carson what went on. And maybe five people would listen. And there anybody who liked Carson remotely as much as me. Like not even close. It'd be people that just you know, they they casual fans and Yes. So I didn't know there's anyone else. Um like me I had zero agenda. And I think hopefully that showed. I wasn't trying to do gotcha questions to be on the front page of filled up of news sites and stuff. I So I I think maybe that's one of the reasons that We're We're very similar in that. And and and I don't want gotcha. I just want to I want to know and I want to be a part of it just by asking these questions and getting these insights answered and hopefully entertaining people or giving people insights along the way. By the way, on the episodes that you winged it, uh I would submit that what's in your head already um has prepared you for a conversation with these people that is very different than if anybody ever else even asked them.

Even if you didn't do a ton of prep beforehand because of just the that you know, the layers of what you know in there. You know, um you said this on on another show. You said, you know, talking about your wife, "Oh, I'm sorry. You know, I know more about Johnny Carson than I do." Isn't that terrible? I mean, it's funny in a way, but it's just it's what it is. I didn't try to set out to know probably more than anybody does. Um I mean, at least when I'm talking Carson's Tonight Show. And I mean, I've talked to so many people that knew him and there's hundreds. So um just having that stuff in my head. It didn't occur to me that would happen and it's it's it's it's definite it's what it is. I'm grateful that I've had this ride. I feel it's it's a good time. I've got all my questions pretty much answered, almost all of them. Yeah. Um so and and I mean there's still people I really would want on the podcast and you know, I've I've asked numerous times and that's fine. You know, in the beginning I would I would kind of take it a little personal and then I was like, no.

No. take it personal. If they don't want to do it, they don't want it. The last thing I want is somebody there that doesn't want to be there or Exactly. Yeah. the comforter uncomfortable. And the word podcast, as you might find, is definitely for people that are really famous. Sometimes their their their handlers is like the kiss of death. Oh, yeah. You say the word podcast. I know that my that some of the people I asked were never approached, that love Carson, that were that were never approached. I mean And they would love to sit down and have a back and forth reminiscence and and all that stuff, but it doesn't get to that. That's That's That's a frustrating part of show business to me is the layers. Uh when it comes to that, because there are folks like you're talking about here. I I bring up the Letterman, there are some actors who were on the show that were specifically told when they guested, they were not allowed to talk about the affinity uh that they had for Dave and how it was a dream come true moment to just sit down. They were like very pointedly told not to talk about that stuff.

any of that. I think Carson appreciated some of that more, but yeah. He was Yeah, ultra specific. Um I have a question about Johnny Carson for you. Did he ever wear any of his own clothes? Did I ever wear any of his clothes? ever wear any of his clothes? Like like doing a monologue, he's wearing a Carson Oh, oh, yeah. I MEAN HE WOULD It was basically an infomercial for his clothing line that was extremely successful. Yeah, I mean he was he would wear those I mean and it was huge and then I guess later and earlier there's a just a wardrobe person that would just get the suits, and he would just Um I know in New York at least he had an assistant for um a bunch of years that would pick out his ties that he would wear and "What do you think?" and But yeah, he definitely um fashion-wise, it's so interesting to look at the the the scope of the 30 years, what that the fashion was for him and and the guests. I mean, it's the it's the best possible history lesson is going through those archives and seeing what people were talking about, yeah, what was the what was socially acceptable, um who were the Yeah, just at all the trends at the time, the dress, um Yeah, I think in terms of going back and seeing what the history was really like, I think that show is a very is a strong indicator.

Well, let's do a let's do a quick plug for your uh the show that you were you were part of on CNN, uh the late-night uh recap show. It was The Story of Late Night, the his- the history of late night. Um that appeared on CNN. Uh the first three episodes of that, don't get me wrong, the entire run was good. I think there were five or six total, but the first three, uh the historical record talking about The Tonight Show, um where it came from, and then when Johnny took over specifically, and when when certain uh national events happened, how the show uh like you say, I'm just I'm just putting an exclamation point on what you said so beautifully, um how it reflected what was going on um during uh uh event current events of the day, and how it molded itself, and and some of the guest hosts that they would have, and and and some of the groundbreaking things that that show did. You know, there's many people that look when it when it comes to things like diversity, and they think, "Oh, there was none back then." But the seeds were planted in many ways with The Tonight Show uh in groundbreaking ways, and I don't I don't know that there had been a record of that um that had gone out as publicly as the CNN show. You guys did a phenomenal job on that show.

You're very nice. First of all, they I was the first person they interviewed out of the 99 people for the the docuseries. And it's one of those things I have no clue if I'm going to get in. They were nice to put me in the three out of the six episodes. I had really nothing to do with that other than I was interviewed, but we did a a companion piece that I was hired as one of the producers Absolutely. Listen to the podcast as well. Watch the show, but listen to the podcast with Mark and and Bill Carter. That was interesting. We had some really fun people Yep. that we talked to. Everyone from, I guess, Jimmy Kimmel to Amber Ruffin to people like Jimmy Brogan, Byron Allen. So, we had a good time. That actually just won a Webby Award. Which is nice. Congratulations. That's fantastic. Well deserved. Uh, so so that was that was definitely an interesting thing to do. I mean, the docuseries, I know people in the that work for Carson that just weren't happy with it because it's just impo- it's impossible to get everything It glossed It glossed over It was like You could have gone a lot deeper than it did, for sure.

a lot of them thought there was just too much emphasis on on Johnny finding talent and Jim McCauley getting the credit where there was a lot of other people before him that were finding Sure. that were that went on to have huge careers. And I mean, Carson was so much more than just introducing talent. And it's mostly a lot that's what it was, which I totally get. Cuz you're trying to educate and entertain Yep. people that might not know Carson is. And if you're going to do that, you throw out Seinfeld, Letterman, Leno, and it's versus maybe some of the other things. But, uh yeah, it would have been nice if they took a deeper dive. But again, in six episodes, which were like what, 50 minutes? Yep. Something like that. Commercials, it's an hour. Um I thought that they did a good job. I I did. I mean, I Yeah, I was glad to be a part of it. And uh pleasantly uh surprised that I was in three episodes.

I um I don't envy people very much and usually when the envy shows up, it shows up just for a flash and then it turns into I'm really happy for those people and and and excited for them. I have a lot of that with you. Uh the fact that you've talked Oh god, the fact that you talked to Bill Carter as many times you have, the fact that, you know, we talk about Peter Lassally, some of these Rob Burnett, some of these other people that you've you you've spoken with and and um but it's but it the good news about that is it inspires me to go, well, if him, why not me? And and that's True. That's how it works, right? That's hopefully we do that for each other as other humans. Um I I I I appreciate the fact that you've already said that you'd come back on. That's is good cuz I'm going to hold you to it as much as I can. I I know our audience will certainly appreciate it because they don't come on here to watch me, let me tell you.

They come on here to watch folks like you and my job's to be a conduit uh to that and so I'm grateful for that. Um two more questions. Number one, I'm a collector of things. I like to collect things and I've collected some things from the Late Show um and and Late Night and and and whatnot. Um I've asked you already, did you keep your lanyard? Did you keep, you know, do you still have the photo? What are some cool things, mementos that you have kept um from from your Letterman either days or had gotten since then?

I I gave a bunch to Don Giller who I'm sure you've mentioned or you will mention to Don. Always shout-outs to Don Giller. Thank you very much, sir, for keeping the uh the catalog alive and keeping things relevant during the the days that Dave was dark for a few years there. He has stuff like I have I have like the the CBS, the first show to CBS, I have like the ticket stub. I have um everything. I have the actual Well, this is kind of I have the the um the cover of the Johnny Carson tribute, the the actual script for it. Um I'd have to look a little bit more, but um I do own the very first Late Night script, which was February '82 show number one, which is extremely Fantastic. I'm told, so I own that. I know Rich Shagman does. I don't know how many are out there. I would not guess. Yep. Two more. When I showed Hal Gurney, he just couldn't believe it. He just looked Isn't like a I had him sign it. And he was just like looking through it.

He was marveling at it. Um I had some NBC tickets, I think. One of for a couple times when I wasn't able to make it cuz I'd have to drive 3 and 1/2 hours and I had school. Normally I I'd be able to get out of the school. So I definitely some And then I have some CBS tickets from people. There were people who would send back the physical tickets. Um Really? Which was amazing. But when I got there, what they they got rid of the tickets the right the actual tickets and they were it was completely different, but they had a lot of those just around, so I have I have some of those. Um Did you ever get a jacket? Yeah, I It was I I can't tell you how excited I was to get one of those. Now it's like going to eBay, but back then it was I was like I always wanted a jacket and Yep. Yeah, for Yeah, they got I have one. And that was huge. I I wore it nonstop. Yeah. I wear mine all the time, too. I've got four of them. And what My first one that I got was given to me from from Arthur Kelley, actually. He gave me one of his. And he said, "Welcome to the family." And and that just Very cool.

Tears Tears coming down and all that stuff. So they're powerful. You still have yours? I do. And I just remember I have And I somebody I think said Kathleen Acres put them together. I still have like one or two of the first taping at CBS. There's like a blue button that said I was the first Letterman taping. There's stick So I have I have some of those. Um I I really I'm sure I have Oh, I definitely have like the some of the scripts. I have scripts. I have some of the like the the rundowns and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. NBC which if people that never seen a rundown, it's basically what everybody on on the staff or the crew would get which is just every segment broken up and what the elements were. So I have some of those. Um We have a copy of the rundown from the very first Late Night that we're going to show on a podcast here. Um we're going to go through that just to just to to help everybody kind of That's amazing. Where did you get it or did somebody just give you a copy?

Uh one of the staffers gave me a copy of it. He He scanned it and sent it to me and it's like I love hearing that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I let's see. I like the first I Bill Wendell's autograph from the first week. Awesome. Wendell was coming by and it was like all camera crews everywhere and I asked if he could sign something and I said um And and the camera crews were like, "Who is he? Is he somebody?" I'm like, "You don't know who Bill Wendell is? I'm not going to tell you." love that. Oh, that's a great idea. I asked him, like, "Bill, are you excited for tonight?" And he just said something very sarcastic. Like just And then the man worked for Early Kobert. So um and then Calvert K- uh Des Forest came and he signed something for me. I mean, it was really strange. I think I mentioned this the first show in the first bunches of months there were no um at least when I was there at least in the beginning the first show, there were no barricades. So like when when um Billy Joel arrived and I I happened I was in line and he was right there. I was like, "Hey, what's up?"

Just like he literally gets out of the limo with him and Christie Brinkley. And I got their autographs. I remember then the next time I went to the show after the first one was I think September then like um uh which was Jerry Lewis, Rod Stewart, Sparky Mortimer, I think. And again I were in line and Rod Stewart shows up and no one else like the like it got to the point where all the professional autograph collectors it was like mayhem by the state where people wanted to get stuff signed. But when I was there I was the only one and then when Stewart Rob Silver was singing after sound check, I just yeah, it was the accessibility um was definitely different. And then after like, I don't know, 9 months or a year, it just became this a completely different I mean, from show number one there were always people that were hanging outside um the show and it was it was basically hoping they would call the payphone or call people in.

Sure. You just never knew who he was going to come out the the the the the double doors and stuff. But waiting for the guest, that was um yeah, there wasn't a lot of that back in the in the first when it started out. I'm a big music fan. I'm a Gen X music guy and and and and and I loved independent alternative music, whatever you wanted to call it growing up. And and there was this feeling always whenever um I was a fan of a band before they broke. And and and I wasn't so bad with this. I was the guy that was really happy when the band broke and and things happened good things happened for them. But there was always that segment of the audience that almost resented a little bit. It's like, hey, that's that's ours. Um that's that's ours. I know people like that. Sure, yeah. Absolutely.

And and I think that um one of the things that's going to continually come up uh as the arc of this the life of this show uh moves forward are the folks who almost resented Late Show uh with how big Dave got and how powerful he became. I love powerful Dave. I always talk about that. I love Late Show very, very much. But there's a lot of people who would consider themselves almost purists. It's like, no, no, no, this is ours. And uh you were you were there for a very, very interesting point. Uh you've talked about the evolution of of of Dave, the phases of his career before in the Carson podcast. Again, ladies and gentlemen who are listening to this, the Carson podcast has so much Letterman in it. They they they tie to each other. I highly recommend going back and watching these episodes or listening to these episodes. Um but uh the phase that I love where Dave is right now, and this is where we're going to finish off here, is is is he's doing the long form.

And also, pointed out to me very recently, also some little crazy things that are on YouTube that are late night-esque, and there's no rules where he's just talking to camera with Barbara, with Mary, great stuff. But, the stuff the forward-facing stuff he's doing is more the long form. And I just wanted to ask, I think you'd have a really interesting perspective on this, on my next guest uh with David Letterman, if there were three people you would like to see Dave uh sit down with on the long form show, who would those people be?

I mean, I've probably a couple of them are probably who you would pick. I think sitting down with Jay Leno, obviously, I think would be really interesting just talking to them about starting out in the clubs, and they spent time together, and Jay um you know, went on Dave's show something like 40 times on NBC, and I mean, you know, Letterman would always go on Carson's show, and and I don't always say this, but he would be like, "Thank you for my career" to Johnny at the end. He would say stuff like that all the time. And Letterman is just as responsible for for Leno getting the Tonight Show as And I've never I don't know. I don't think that the whole thank you uh being grateful I think it's just it's different. They have it's a it's a very different relation. Maybe they're peers. Listen, Jay's always been very nice to me. He His show was number one. You can't take that away. He was nice to his staff. Uh he's um no one works as hard as him. He's made a lot of people happy.

But, I think uh Leno would be good. Um I'm trying to think of like people that to sit down with that are still alive. Um He's He's the one I'm having trouble like I can name famous people, but in terms of somebody who is I mean, I guess Madonna would be interesting. Oh, that'd be an interesting That's a great answer. Only because I really like when she would go on Dave show on NBC with Sandra Bernhard and she obviously I mean it's amazing like if you show a young person out that it was kind of like historic television Madonna went on and said the F bombs that that was like national I was actually the that's such a strange thing with Madonna. I've mentioned this the the next time she was ever in the studio after that I was there and it was I think it was Valentine's Day that she wanted she did a cameo with flowers and she gave them to Dave and she said I'm not even going to say and then she said the F word and it was muted. Yeah.

It was either that or it was something but I think it was Valentine's Day and so I was there both times for when she she came on it was really weird on the on the on the early CBS and then Madonna only made one cameo that I know of the walk on unannounced thing on Leno and I was there for that too in 94 in the spring of 94 which is odd too I'm like what is this thing with Madonna and cameos and I'm there for I mean I just wanted I'd never seen the Tonight Show so with Jay was um I guess it was the second or third year he was coming in from New York to do shows out of 8H so I was there. And he was picking up steam at that point too. They were really they were starting to find their voice at that point. How long was That was the most instrumental week of their entire run in terms of being in that studio and going back to Burbank and reconstructing the first day. Um I remember when I was there Ed Hall who worked at Letterman of course they they Madonna was running late.

I mean I I could tell back then cuz there were somebody something was happening and then later it made sense it would have been Madonna which Jimmy Brogan confirmed so it was like Jay came up for his warm up which he always did and then Jimmy Brogan um started talking to the crowd and I was like oh this is really nice they're going to I've never seen this the head writer and Brogan was hilarious taking questions doing crowd work which he does and then Ed Hall comes and I'm just like I've had been in a show like this where they are just going over and then this much this is great and then and I found out later they were stalling cuz Madonna was late but it was great.

It was so cool getting to ask questions and just seeing them and they put me in the second row on the aisle which was also a nice thing. I mean I was 18 at the time and I think that they were very big on putting younger people up front. Makes sense. And uh but yeah it was really cool getting to be there be there for that. So yeah I think Madonna would be interesting. That's a great name. Yep. I mean obviously but it's like the people that I want are all gone like Calvert I thought or or um Harvey Pekar Yeah. I just in terms of I'd have to really think I mean Bro Khan hammered really close. I think it'd be a fun episode. that's another interesting name. think it's something where I'm like I'm dying to see. I think it'd be interested and it's not going to happen have Sandra Bernhard on because Dave like just to this day I guess apparently Sandra Bernhard still has dreams of going on the show and he you know she stopped doing it. It was really really hard. But that would be more inside baseball.

Sure. I think. That's okay. Oh I know who I put I I know who I pick in my top three is Bob Dylan cuz Dylan was a great too. Yeah. Dylan loved Dave's show especially on NBC. He went on the show a bunch of times at the Radio City Music 10th anniversary. He was one of the original He originally went on to meet Larry Bud Melman apparently. He he thought Larry Bud Melman was hilarious. Yeah he he was a fan of the show and Dylan doesn't do interviews like that almost ever. Yeah. That's a great answer. I thought them together would be great just having an organic chat. You're probably going to get a lot better if you don't have an audience but they're for it. But I think I think that those are probably or Bob Morton maybe? Oh my god, yeah. that's inside baseball, but another but fascinating nonetheless. Yeah, guys like you and I would be fascinated with this. That conversation right there or or or Burnett or or or some of these other The public wants Harris and Ford and I get it. They want They want the big names. I think that's Yeah.

For sure. But Brokaw is a great answer, too. Like I mean you you talk about somebody legendary. Well, Brian Williams is one of my favorite guests of all time. The newsman really good. Even before he was really famous when he went on shows. Occasionally he killed. I mean Absolutely. And but a newsman, an old school newsman, one who wouldn't talk about it almost made it a shtick to not give opinions because he was a right down the middle guy and you got Brokaw and Rather and some of these some of these old school Barbara Walters for that matter. You know, Diane Sawyer, people who who saw the changing of the guard of the news and how related that is to Dave and his broadcasts and and yeah, that is a that's a Brokaw is a fascinating answer. That's a really good one. I think that would be a great great talk and also inside baseball cuz super fans would love that as well. I mean again, I went to the Friars Club to interview Tom Brokaw and I couldn't believe sentence that you just said. Holy god.

I know. I know. I think we were in the Ed Sullivan room and it was yeah, and then it was amazing just talking about Carson and then I switched of course and I'm like I have to talk about Dave, but a lot of those news guys Dave always loved to have a I don't go on record. I said this on the podcast. If Brian Williams would have gotten the 12:30 gig and had a late night show, he would have succeeded wildly. Give it to him now. Corden's leaving next year. Give it to him next year. He would have he would have There's no question that he would have been good in my If I had to guess right away, likeability. And it takes It just takes a little time for the public to accept somebody in a different role. Like when Letterman started his late show, people There are so many people that were just like, well, he's he's not the same character and this is uncomfortable cuz I'm not used to this. And then it just takes the public a while, I think.

Finding that voice, too, right? They needed to figure out what they were doing as well and what his voice was going to sound like. a year, at least, for those shows, if not more, to find voices. And a lot of them take more than a year. But I think Williams would have succeeded. I mean, I have no doubt that if he had that opportunity, he would have He would have succeeded. He's not in my top three, but he's in my top five. So, so, yeah, I I we we you and I think very, very similarly. Listen, Mark, you're going to come back. Thank you for that. I just want to say also, on a personal note, thank you for your contribution to the thing that I love. The fact that the Carson Podcast exists has inspired me to do this. You and and a few other key people have inspired me to step forward and say, "Why not me?" and do it. But But the fact that you have that, you know, I love Bill Carter. I can't wait till our paths cross. I want to talk to Bill Carter very, very badly.

I look at what he did when he wrote Late Shift and then again, of course, Story for Late Night as well. And and how he must have inspired you and this body of work that you have built with The Carson Podcast. I've said it so many times. I am bewildered and extremely shocked at how quickly people have forgotten Johnny Carson and how big he was and in my opinion, still is, the the cultural worldwide impact that that man made. And I've got 25-year-old kids who don't even know who he is. And one of the reasons that I'm starting I'm doing the Letterman Podcast is because I'm not going to let that happen to Dave. I'm going to be a conduit, a transfer of knowledge, a torchbearer, whatever you want to call it, for the body of work that Dave and company created, you, sir, have done that with Johnny Carson, and I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you, Mark Malkoff, for doing it. That's very nice. I admire what you're doing. I wish you all of the success.

Uh I I asked people that to be guests that I I was 99% sure were going to say no to me, and they would A lot of people said yes. I mean, it was one of those things like, "Mark, how do you get all these big guests?" I'm like, "It's not me. They want to talk about Johnny Carson." I'd never I didn't realize that when I picked the Carson podcast. I wanted my questions answered. I want to know what it was like being a guest. Everyone like all these big names said yes only because they'd never had a long-form sh- um a place to talk about Yes. going on Carson, which is I always equated to like for some of these people, it's like it was like their college experience, which was like their favorite part of their life, and they just never really get to talk about it to at length. So, there's been a lot of that. So, I say not keep just keep on knocking on doors, and uh just go for the people you think are unattainable, and uh you just never know. And I just I thought it was going to be seven episodes I thought I'd do at the most.

And just you just never know when you start out with something, and you just have good intentions like you do, um for sure. So, I wish you the best. I appreciate that. Um and off camera, off uh you know, on the on the texted machine, I will be asking you for advice along the way, and Yeah, sure. I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. I still don't know how much I know what I'm doing, but uh Yeah, if you need anything, please. Oh, I I can't I can't thank you enough. Um to this community, to the Letterman podcast community, that's what we're doing here, that's what we're building here. We're telling stories, we're uh getting to the point where where where this transfer of knowledge will continue on, um and and we've got a lot of very cool things planned. So, please uh subscribe. Please uh share the podcast. Whether you like us or not, please share us and subscribe, cuz even if you don't like us, somebody else, you know may.

We're very grateful that you've given us a chance. Thank you so much. This has been another episode of the Letterman podcast. My name is Mike Chisholm. Thank you and good night.