Stupid Pet Tricks with Ben Zelevansky

I'm Steve Young you're watching the Letterman podcast I wasting welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum Ben zansky is our guest today Ben um was uh well we we go through a whole bunch of his time in New York working for some of the greatest shows um that that we're that we're he he grew up on he grew up on David Letterman up on Conan O'Brien he grew up on CER live you know what ended up doing work for all three shows pretty crazy pretty cool um you know grew up as he grew up his mom would tape uh Late Night with David Letterman every night and play it the the next morning and that was the tradition that he had in his house and and and just absolutely worshiped these shows got a chance to work on the shows first as an intern and then he came and became the stupid pet trick coordinator and so we have a lot of fun talking about that he ended up meeting his wife another intern on the show and and just it's really cool to catch up with Ben and after all these years to feel the impact that that show those people had on him and his life and and uh how they affected their trajectory of where he ended up going uh the gratefulness you can just feel it from him and as you may or may not know I'm a fan of gratefulness um this is uh I'm really really excited to present this episode with Ben zansky today uh we have one sponsor one sponsor only at the Letterman podcast that is hellodd deli.com go to hellodd deli.com for all of your Late Show with David Letterman merchandise needs curated by the hero the man the myth the legend rert G himself um we hope that you enjoy our conversation with Ben today Ben I'm so grateful you've taken time to be here today I want to know how the best way to address you is I mean I know you're a creative but like like actor um you know writer uh uh uh um I mean and and and all sorts of different uh things that you do in the creative Direction what do you call rur yes absolutely or raer reter maybe uh or Rocketeer that would be that's fun oh this is GNA be be liced for that that's too much I never got into that um no I don't mostly what I do now is writing and acting and a little bit of like you know odds and ends video production stuff but uh um yeah that's that's the main stuff now I mean I was always interested in film and television that's what I went to school for that's how I ended up at at plate show and so rather than you know I at the time I um you know the focus coming out of school was like to be in production so I happened to get like you know some production jobs but what I really wanted to do at that point was right and I thought um this was you know the late 90s in New York mid late 90s and um I thought well you know when I uh get out of school um you know I'll either I'd like to write for Conan or Letterman or maybe Saturday Night Live and so I thought out of a city of you know whatever six million people I was like well okay so I'm I'd be interested in like you know 40 different jobs openings that available um anything beyond that I don't think you know that's not really for me so I like I sort of went into it thinking like uh a little bit unrealistically but this is what you know I I eventually got back to writing and and acting and sort of that's what that's kind of what my focus is now very interesting that you would have that list though uh Conan O'Brien very very similar he comes out of Harvard and that's you know he was that laser focused as well and two of of the three franchise you just mentioned uh were the two that he wanted to work with and then the third one of course is the one he became which is very interesting now also you you have worked for all three franchises though it's interesting because you know you come out and you have this list uh it might not have been in front of the camera it might not have been ready but you did actually work for all three franchises was Saturday Night Live first uh no Conan was first I was an intern at Conan um and then I came back a couple of times like to drive the truck on remote pieces and do that kind of General PA type stuff yep um and from there the how I got the Letterman internship first before the doing petrick was the writers assistant at Conan was a woman named Ruth sanan who was a very sweet person and like very friendly and funny and I and I would hang around the writers as much as I could yep um and uh I think I guess I got out my head well maybe I could go intern at Letterman after this I know it's super competitive and she had been had worked at Letterman either had worked there or been an intern and like put in a call and recommend me and that's how I got the interview there and so I I went from the Conan internship to the Letterman internship and then SNL was a friend of mine will Shepard um was working on the film unit there with Jim sorelli who was the guy who directed the SNL fake commercials forever you know that he back to the little chocolate donuts with John Belushi like that you know oh my gosh been there yeah for the whole run of the show he was working on that film crew and again there was just like hey we need guys to Lug stuff and drive the pick up go pick up the cube truck and the 15 passenger van and whatever and um that was the most I ever did at SNL but it was enough you know everything at least at NBC at that point I mean Dave was at CBS obviously at this point but y you know Conan was on the sixth floor SNL was on the eighth floor and like the two of those shows were you know when things were slow at Conan I would just go down to the Satur live studio and stand around and watch rehearsals or whatever and nobody it was very you know I I dug up I was looking through my old stuff and um this the state of of um security has probably changed a little bit since uh my days um this is this is my secure path for entry to the uh Letterman building as you uh very you wouldn't be able to duplicate there's no way you could ever uh you know create another one of those a fake one of those Pentagon level stuff I think absolutely is tremendous my 30 Rock pass I I'm not even sure it had my name on it I think it was just like it was like a writ on the back of somebody's business card so point being you could wander into the building whenever you wanted and nobody really checked and you could go and do whatever you wanted and so I ended up seeing all kinds of you know it was always a great day to go down to SNL and see band rehearsals or um one day I wandered through there and I think they end they did end up doing it on the show but it was um uh John C and Michael Palin doing the parrot sketch are you kidding me yeah and I was just kind of standing around like walking through rehearsal and I saw them and I had no idea they were going to be on the show and so I was there standing 20 feet from a live Monty Python performance wow which at the time you know I assume that you're a comedy nerd absolutely absolutely mon python likely had a very big uh big place in your in your brain and heart if you're very much and so does Kids in the Hall and I want to ask you about that too the Canadian thing I want to ask you about that because he worked with Kev as well right but um you know I let's talk about that for a second there what you just described there's a couple of things you described there the other era of being able to just go and hang around places like this also but again a bigger a bigger theme and I think it is Conan um but a few people have expressed this sentiment the idea that they love being surrounded by you know the hustle and bustle of a television production um the whip crackling electricity of the creative process and then a llama might walk by or a guy in a llama suit might walk by like it it's just that that that picture is so Whimsical to so many uh you just mentioned that you were hanging out um in 30 Rock one of the Great greatest uh you know uh beacons or symbols of of broadcasting ever um when it happened was their Majesty for you was there impact was there Pinch Me moments was it was it was it as magical place as you thought it was going to be 100% I mean it's like you know and it still is I always love that building and that you know that little area right there around the skating rink and it's just anytime you like that whole sort of square between 49th and 50th and fifth and sixth Avenue is like yeah just the it is like step you cross the street into that area and it just starts to feel different and I don't know if it's like the you know part of it I'm sure is the art you know the architecture and like the fres gold gold frescoes everywhere and yeah probably radioactivity from something as well yeah I'm sure yeah just one yeah things are supposed to be you know supposed to have been cleaned up by now that uh potential super fun sites um but yeah it was great it's like it's such a you know they don't everybody says they don't make them like that anymore but that building really is a you know it feels like it could be you were there like in the 40s and 50s and like when all this stuff was really starting to happen um and very you know at that point not a lot had changed really I'm sure it's much Slicker and I haven't been back there in a and certainly not inside inside the building in a really long time y but um yeah it it felt like I was so you know and especially when you're a kid and like you're kind of just starting your life and it's was like man I can't believe I'm here standing like where all these people have stood and SNL in particular the walls are lined with photos of all the greats and um yeah it was uh it was it was pretty insane to to work there as a as a kid that age that's fantastic um now you mentioned there's a couple of directions I want to go in I want to ask the question about the differences between being an intern for for for late night and uh with Conan O'Brien and Late Show with David Letterman I want to ask that but but you I mean this Saturday Night Live thing the idea of going hanging around and witnessing some of these things I would like to explore that a little bit more what are some of the things that you just kind of hung around and saw like that's trying to think of that's always my go-to because that you know mon python iconic Beyond iconic yeah and the parrot sketch out of everything you know like of all it wasn't like they showed up to do you know or like it was some sort of post python thing you know they were older and it was like I'm not sure why what excuse they came up with for why suddenly in the middle of a you know 90 1998 97 96 something like that yeah Saturday Night Live show they're like well now we're going to do the parrot sketch with people who many of you probably couldn't identify like do people know who Monty Python is at that point the kids that are watching sat life maybe they do I guess maybe they do I did um but uh think who else I saw there musically well one big one you know and recently it got a little bit tainted but um uh this was let's see what were they doing this was um I believe okay do I want to say all right I can't remember who the host was but it was the musical guest was Jimmy pagee um but unfortunately doing a song with uh Shan combes they did a song on uh Hey famous and Infamous uh you know are interesting like like like there's still there's there's it crackles a little bit differently now but yeah what a moment to see something like that to see the fusion of these two uh iconic artists and I mean you know that's still still the case I mean famous INF that's still the case right that's a crazy moment yeah the power of a musician like Jimmy P everybody know you know like up Leed Zeppelin for the kids um look him up I think they're on Spotify uh think gret Aon gret Aon Fleet but cooler yeah right the first one um yeah and it wasn't you know like uh it's B the song was basically like it was the rift from cashmir I think and then he just rapping over it and so you're just watching this guy Play the song you've heard your whole life and they had like a not a full full Orchestra but like an orchestra behind it and it was you know there sometimes you just get that feeling like what if I just walked into the middle of the stage like nobody would really stop me I don't think it would be extremely weird but there there's such an um it goes back to the low security thing which unfortunately has gone forever I guess or maybe for the best it's G forever but yeah you know you just wander around backstage there you go sit in Lauren's office for people watch and eat popcorn and watch the show you stand at the stand around at the page desk and the you cast members running back and forth past you and I think the time when I was there I want to say I think it was the first sort of I don't know what year it would have been but it was like the Chris Parnell class just so they had just flipped in will frell and and those people had just flipped in the Dana Carvey uh you know had left had left and and over s those still hanging around yeah exactly it was you were there for the nor McDonald years uh yes let's see yeah he was doing because i f i was a faxer they used to call them faers when you get update jokes um on I got one to dress rehearsal but I now I can't remember what it was but I think it was not even I'm not even 100% sure it was mine that got to dress rehearsal because it was a very like first thought kind of joke and I'm sure half a dozen people faxed it in and I was like it maybe it wasn't quite my wording and so it must have been somebody else but I you know I'm I'm I'm taking credit for absolutely did you just did you just fact for for uh for Weekend Update or did you do it for uh for late night late show any of these other ones as well I never got around to doing it for those I submitted packets I never submitted a packet to Conan yeah although Conan did read a you know I was thinking about this as I was like digging through my old papers and everything like I was 20 let's see but when I was working at okay when I was an intern in Conan I must have been 19 something like that by the time I got to letter and I was 21 Y and I really like I said I had this mindset like oh I'll just go right for you know I'll just get one of these e readily available late night writing jobs and so like I put packets together and and people read them like Tim long was the headwriter at when I was there and Rodney Rothman yeah and they both read packets of mine and like were very complimentary but I looking And I wrote wrote a Simpsons spec that Conan actually read for me and like G passed it on to um uh Rich Appel who was a guy who was a writer he might even still be there now that I think wow and but I I have a lot of um embarrassment about it because the basically Letterman The Simpsons and Steve Martin were sort of like that's what sort of formed my sense of humor yep and so like I haven't looked at any of that stuff in years but and but I I guarantee you that my sensibility in submitting like a letterman packet was like yeah this is all like you you learned all this from us like we we don't need like people who are just going to you know like you're sort of formed in this Cru and then you're you know you don't most people me at least didn't really have like a fully formed comic voice at that point I was still sort of you know mashing together influences and trying to develop something out of it but I now looking back on it I know for a fact that that Simpsons spec I I can't remember what they might have been but I'm I'm 99% positive that there were jokes in there that had been on the show like where I I thought that I thought of them y like there was something where it was like like oh this is the perfect Simpsons joke and then I would be like you know later on I was like wait a minute or I'd see a rerun or something and be like did I was that in my script and I would go back and be like oh no wonder it sounded like a great Simpsons joke to me because because it was one so I wish you know sometimes I wish like boy if I you know had a been a a couple years more mature than 19 or 21 when I had these chances like maybe I would have had a little more uh um a little more to offer some of these places like creatively like than I than I did at the time but it's interesting though because there's also the factor um you know you got a guy like Will Forte phenomenal phenomenal creative phenomenal phenomenal writer um not necessarily finding the voice of late show and and so there's that part of it too like do you know the voice of the show and it's been interesting talking to uh some of the different writers uh you know Beckerman comes up you know right away thinking about the idea of the learning curve of of of being the writer you know are you gonna get you know stop writing what you think we want you to write and just write you know and you know so there's that or Steve Young comes in and I mean he wasn't you know he's like you know who's who's Calbert DeForest you know he knew him as lar but he didn't know that much he was a little bit disconnected from it right and and and his voice just happened to be um you know complimentary to the point of of of maybe even shaping the voice of Late Show show but then some of these other writers who came in and that's exactly what you're talking about they knew the voice like the back of their hand yeah yeah well in some of these like a guy like well Forte is like a you know a comic Prodigy like he may not have been a good fit for Letterman um exactly but he you know like he was sort of fully formed I think Rodney is another guy like that who yeah because he I think he got hired right out of college I thought yeah but a guy who's just like sort of a natural um kind of like knew who he was and adapted his thing for what they needed and so it it can be done um but uh I I just wasn't I don't think I was in a in that place it took me a little while longer to sort of figure out you know what I could do that was funny rather than just sort of you know imitate things that I thought were funny but uh were you a part of Upright Citizens Brigade at this point I had taken courses there I I took them so long ago that I took them with Matt bester and Amy po wow and Armond Diaz who are like you know the wow Founders yeah I was gonna ground level yeah almost and that was through um the guy Chris deuca was the guy who hired me at late night as an inter turn y like a great guy hilarious guy one of the funniest people I know still um and uh I remember he had said to me like Hey we're going to see upright citizen Brigade it's like an improv show and I I was like no improv like cor I don't think that's for me and I we went to see they were in this theater I want to say it was maybe solo Arts was that the name of it it was like a it was like on the fourth or fifth floor of some building you took like this rickety elevator to get up there and it was like this crummy little room with a bunch of old theater seats in it and like not a stage I think it was just a flat floor yeah and they did uh some version of um uh I can't remember the name of the show it was like um a version of like a sports thing it wasn't ass cat but it was some sort of something like Thunderball or murderball or something that had like a name like that and I just had never seen anything like it and I was like this is I got to find out more about this and so I kind I think I signed up for the classes like immediately and I think Armando was my first teacher and then besser after that who was you know he was such a he was a great improv teacher because he could sort of he could kind of tell um I I kind of like getting like yelled at a little bit by teachers y I feel like I'm you know have some actual aptitude in it in yeah something it's like all right good they're care enough to sort of like challenge me on this sure well some people respond very well to Authority so yeah yeah I don't think that I do always but if it's a thing where I really want to get better at like there were times in that class he would just say to people like why did you do that like like not like in sort of a like let's explore why you did that but like more A vibe of like what were you thinking like why would you bother like he literally like you're wasting every time why like he was I don't think he was ever that abrupt but I think he could tell like the people who had some grasp of it and so um and the people who were there for because they had heard there were some like this was the a cool place to be or whatever uh you know I think he didn't have a lot of patience for that but he you know a very talented guy and uh and and Amy was just like the most sort of supportive nurturing like uh you know she at that time I have not kept in touch yeah um but at that time she was seemed like very much like the person that you see that you sort of feel like she is like a sort of friendly gentle easy going and just funny as hell so yeah so Chris from late night introduced me to them and um yeah it was was a great time to be around that whole area in Manhattan like there there was there was a lot going on then for sure where uh where were you living what was your apartment like uh I probably let's see well I went to school in New York so I was either in yeah let's see so when I was an intern at Conan I was in the dorms oh wow okay yeah yeah makes sense so that would have been that and then uh my friend will who I mentioned who got me at the job of Satur live we had an illegal sublet um off Columbus Circle that we were in for less than a week before we got caught and the guy got the owner got threatened with being evicted like uh it was a great apartment and I columus Circle yeah yeah it was like between eth and 9th I think like 55th 56 something like that and it was like this is great this is going to be our base operations and like they called us immediately and the guy the guy who we were renting the place from was like yeah you guys got to move out they're gon to they're going to evict me so we were there for like five days or something had to move all our crap out again uh yeah it was something that's very funny now yeah at the time oh no at the time it's a perfect New York story though it's a perfect New York story for sure yeah yeah um okay so you're interning for Conan um you know learning a lot a sponge uh you know were you able to keep that excitement up was it you know uh what was the what was the mood like working there it was a great time to be at Conan um like he I you know again I haven't seen him in a very long time but um my understanding is that he still is like this but like he will just talk to you like he'll um like he I don't think he's super wrapped up and certainly wasn't at the time in like sort of being the star of a thing yeah um I think I had gotten there the way I sort of like remember this is in the little sort of lobby area where all the interns sat um there was a big blowup and I think it was the first time he had been on the cover of Rolling Stone mhm and it was a picture of him with like they had done his hair like way up and put like these little plastic Surfers in it is how I remember the picture and it was like I got there sort of right I think everybody anyone who's watching this probably knows the story of like the early Conan Panic years where yeah they would got like at the end of each show they would find out if they were canceled or not but I by the time I got there it had kind of evened out and he was starting to become like a bit of a cultural yep uh icon but it was right at the beginning of that and so everybody it was like being in an office full of people like who had just had a stay of execution and like they're just released like we finally were on Solid Ground a bunch of grateful people yeah and it really was and like people were like that and Conan was I think was definitely like that and I think he I think he felt so much responsibility for the show being a success and keeping people employed and everything and now it was finally like Solid Ground finally and so he seemed to me at least to be in a good mood like all the time he would just come out and like plop down and like talk to the interns and sit around you know it must have been like trying to think of so the change over was like 94 is that right 93 94 is that Dave yeah yeah so this would have been so I would have been there like three years after that maybe yep and I think from as far as I can tell everyone see you know everyone seems to agree that it was like a two to threee period where it was a daily Nightmare and so like as soon as they got solid footing then I showed up and I was like hey this is great what a great gig and everyone's having a good time and um but yeah Chris the intern was the intern coordinator Chris luk and just the best guy super funny and easygoing and like um he made a great environment Conan did John gra was the headwriter at that point yeah um Ruth I mentioned the writer assistant who who got me in at Letterman just so many great people and again like wander down to the studio like watch rehearsal you know V folds scen day like um yeah you know uh uh anybody you could think of and like around the hallway yeah and like oh there's Howard Stern like uh you know and like I grew up in the tri-state area um and so like you know I right across the hall was the news and so like you know I'd be excited to see like Sue Simmons and like uh Al Roker like you know like people you know people I watched on the news all growing up and sure but again and part of that the 30 Rock uh building that whole vibe it was it was the live at five Letterman connection I mean of course you know things you're you're you're in college interning for for for Conan at a time where Conan the ground swell was there uh I go back to uh I've mentioned this this this this moment from the show multiple times because it serves so well you got a guy like Dave rowski who was a a legendary writer for late night um and and he came in after The Changing of the Guard a couple of times so but he came in uh having been nurtured by late night during his college Years his early college years and it was when all the kids were watching like he talked about how he would have pictures of celebrities from people People magazine and stuff on his wall and after watching Letterman they all get torn down right because just it changes you know they're all sponges there and and if they get sponged up by the Letterman cynicism and whatnot looking at things it became and and then that was the ground swell that built late night into the fervor was the college kids you were an intern and going to University when that was happening when those that generation was doing that to Conan O'Brien and that's a very interesting time that you actually got to intern there and and and go to university at the same time that's very interesting yeah people you know it's hard for today's uh young people to understand but the notion of the late night Wars yeah and like how much media oxygen that occupied at the time um you know it was like it was it would be on like on the news and on like the front page of news even it was just the post for the Daily News or whatever it's hard to imagine like now you know all the late night hosts all like go camping together and you know po marshmallows whatever but it was such a uh you know for s for something that's so silly it was such a high stakes a comically high stakes atmosphere yep I remember you know uh to me the best illustration of that and this I I think this happened when I was there yeah um at Letterman uh Leno had bought the billboard up up the street like 54th in Broadway the number one in late night and then Dave I think it was Rob Brett's idea put up the number three in late night bigger with a bigger grid on his face with a bigger like it was um it was like that was just the the greatest example of like yeah like we you know we made our bones like taking the air out of this whole thing and we we include ourselves in that ABS one of the best jokes of all time um we had George schwitzer who was the head of CBS marketing for 47 years um on on on on the show and we asked him about that because you know marketing late show and the the the unique relationship with Worldwide pants and CBS and the arrangement the very unique Arrangement that was there um you know we want control over everything and and and and so but they'd have to run things through like an ad campaign like that and at first George the show right that was the whole right so George and his team see this this this idea come across the desk and at first they were a gas of course and then a couple seconds later they IM medely get it and everyone's laughing and it's like yes let's do this um a perfect perfect example of that now let's move to okay so the internship same uh same State University basically you you switch Conan the time is up the candle has to go out and you just move over to Letterman and you get another dream come true University experience like yeah it was it's I don't know i' I've always had a great luck I mean with a lot of things in my life but that that kind of thing especially but you know really like at a certain point the luck is to get in the door the first time and then to right from there you tend to meet people who are and certainly in this world are all lik minded and you know like and appreciate each other and you form these relationships and it's not it's less of like hey can you do me a favor and help me get this thing and more like oh you know where you'd be great you should call call so and so and um it's it's sort of like what you wish all kind of networking was because you have real relationships with people and it's not sort of like a transactional like hey we'll meet at a mixer and I'll do this for you and you'll do this for me so like it seemed a very natural progression like um oh you did a good job here and it'll like you'll do a good job there too like yeah I'll call Janice B know and uh um so that that's I was going to ask if she was in charge at that point when you came over she would have yeah because it would have transitioned over right to that where she was just finding her groove in in in in the interns and of course uh you know yeah like she she she she looks at all of the interns as as her kids she won't she won't tell me stories specifically when the record button is on about people because she doesn't want to leave other people out that's how sweet Janice is yeah she wasn't want to play fav yeah she just she really cared about the trajectory of the lives of the people who came into her her little world yeah 100% um yeah it was a very you know that building the you know the handful of floors they had um like it was like a little ecosystem you know like a little microcosm it was like a microcosm of an ecosystem of a of a model of a anyway um yeah it was like in a test in a lab yeah yeah there was a lot of stress and you know um and a lot of pressure and in my case at least a lot of it I think self-applied yeah but it was I'm hardpressed to think of anyone who like I didn't like yeah or who I was like uh this person like there was just sort of a way like people that and you know people start on that show answering phones and then become executive producer like there's a reason why that happens um and so yeah it just it was you know it it was just a so making that transition from conent to Letterman was like I think also at Letterman they must have been like oh well this guy is definitely gonna understand how a late night show works right like that we're not gonna have to you know start from scratch so I'm sure that had a lot to do with it I'm sure Ruth's recommendation had a lot to do with it but the gam did you do the gauntlet of going from the different department to different departments and and and who do you remember who you connected with and was there a couple of different ones that you potentially looked at or did did the direction form itself very easily well I mean you know I was so focused on wanting to write at that point that I was just praying that I would be the writer please get me in the writer floor please get me in the LI yeah exactly I wanted to get on like the Bob bordon track of like you know um but I think at uh at the time I feel like I remember Janice saying like telling that to Janice and she was like try not to be too big about that um like they're a little wary of like of you know I think maybe sometimes people would show up there and you know someone who wanted to intern on the show or work on the show and thought it was sort of their ticket to like be on camera or to be ah so like to be a writer on that show was like just as sort of at that level I think yep and so she was like you know they don't necessarily like they kind of want you just to be an intern like you're not there to kind of um be so forward about like what you want to get out of this yep good note good advice yeah for sure and so um yeah and so I ended up I you know I it would be tough to remember who I talk to from each department yeah but I ended up um except for Chris Shai who was the only Paul's assistant was the only sort of oneman show there that I remember isn't Chris shakai one of the greatest humans on the planet isn't he fantastic yeah I think to be you know just super friendly and funny and like um very like Midwestern sensibility and just nice guy and unfazed by what should sort of be kind of like a high press situation and always had time to talk and um yeah very very nice sweet guy um and so yeah so I ended up in the talent Department working for Joanna Jordan um another you know I adore Joanna Jordan I I love her so much and talk about a high pressure job I mean like so the I never would have thought to say like hey I'd like to be in the town I would have thought that you know the people who wanted to be like celebrity adjacent would come in and be like oh can I work in the talent department so maybe I can you know um and that kind of wasn't my you know I had I had people that I was fans of but that was never kind of my um my scene um but so for whatever reason I ended up they were like okay maybe this I got I gotta ask a question I'm sorry I got to ask a question at this point uh did you send flowers to anybody who Dave pissed off you must have no uh not me personally um I think would the intern be the one who all right yeah no you know he said it again last night hey sit on down to the flower shop get this I think they were uh I'm trying to think of what the well okay you know what I remember more of is less the people the trying to uh smooth things over with I think maybe at that point too I think they had maybe given up a little bit on like coaxing there are people that they were like this it's too far gone like I you know I'm trying to remember who I'm sure we all know the the go-to punch lines but uh what I do remember is Not Just Flowers but Joanna used to send to try and there were people who just didn't really do any talk shows and she was always trying to get the person who was like you know this person will just won't do it and so she was I remember we used to send them um lemon trees did anybody ever say that she would send like a potted like lemon tree I was like that's such a nice like sort of thoughtful you know could you send them like a thing of flowers or whatever but this is a very unusual I can see why that would get someone's attention it's like like Joanna was full of little things like that that were like oh you can see why she's so good at this like she's you know it's not just shmoozing and talking up chatting up people's reps and publicists and whatever like she's really you know um had that kind of neck for how to like make an impression with people and a positive and especially in a job where you know her boss was was there was uh not similarly inclined um you know she was especially well suited to to sort of smooth things over and also try and build these Bridges to people who would not ordinarily be interested she uh through words and action has made me feel like a million damn dollars like multiple times and I mean that's me who's so far removed so far like I can't even imagine how it would be I talked to her son a little bit who who who works for her as well in her in her organization in central Talent booking yeah because I mean I mean what a great story she is too right you know the idea of hey I'm sorry I've got to out on my own it's just too big it just I I I just I have to do it the rodex is just such that I I have to do too good at this to and then I'm saying okay well guess what we'll be your first client like what a what an amazing story that is and and to have watched her build into Kimmel the way that she has the way that Dave had you know folks like Jack Rollins and and Hal gurny and some of these people who were around forever to have Joanna look and and kind of pluck Jimmy and and help become rocket fuel for the rocket he's become it's just such a neat I just I really really appreciate Joanna Jordan a lot she's just she's just super she's super you know I expected it would have had to have been her final decision I don't know how maybe she didn't get that involved in hiring the interns but I assume she would have had to sign off on all of us at some point and so starting from that and then you know she you know like she was just always as busy as she was and as you know stressed and pressured and everything like you could really just like talk she would talk to like she would explain stuff to you and tell you stuff about how the show worked or you it wasn't just like do this do that and you know get lunch for this one and whatever and um and she was the one who asked me to come back like after my The Internship ended I think I had another let's see I was there over the summer and then I had one more semester of school yep and it was like literally the like the week after I had finished at school like my phone rang and they were like uh we need someone to do pet tricks and I was like uh yep okay yes like don't don't think about it don't I don't care what it involves uh I'm in I'm in it's official and I get a check I get a check now yeah it was technically it was a check I think at the time I'm lucky that my parents live nearby let's put it that uh but it was you know the I really had no idea what was involved and like what kind of challenge it was going to be but the fact that they thought of me um you know and that's all Joanna like you know she's uh she was just just just just so great to me so okay that's the this is this is such a beautiful beautiful part because uh okay school's finishing you're trying to figure all this stuff out had some great great times those great times are now done trying to actually integrate into the into the real world am I going to get a job in this uh in this sect of of of of culture that I love so much and a week in to that kind of you know existential crisis you get a call and it's like I get to go work for Letterman and and um so so it was the uh it was the talent Department that actually ultimately hired you um and and and stupid petrick cordinator is that the first is that your first job you're the stupid petrick coordinator is that the job description yep that is that is it stupid stupid pet and human trick coordinator stupid pet and human trick coordinator oh and they W the show won the Emmy that year and so I have an Emmy certificate and it says pet and human trick coordinator on it you have a certificate couldn't get the trophy yeah you know believe me I called uh uh I don't remember what the deal was I was like G get another chance at this yeah you couldn't have ordered one though like did you have the option to order one wonder I I think I asked and they were like you know I don't I don't know if I independently could have called up I'm I'm sure pursued it and must have h a dead end but I don't know is it too late maybe can I call him now yeah let's uh call The Academy um that is that is insane so so when you got there did you know the job already because you had interned the department and you kind of knew a little bit about it or was it a little bit more Fish Out of Water stuff um I mean I was it was a great advantage to having had just been there just from knowing the people and where everything is and how the schedule and the show and all that stuff but they were only doing pet tricks maybe once a quarter or pet and human tricks they would kind of do them you know three or four times a year and at that point you know this that was one of the original you know Merl Marco era segments of absolutely so we're you know whatever it was 15 years in at this point yep of having done maybe almost 20 years oh yeah so to say that the well was running dry um would be a bit of an understatement so that ended up being the challenge was like people would you know like I didn't in other words that so while I was there the segment was like not a part of really a frequent part of the show yeah and um Susan shrier was that her name I know okay the woman who had booked the segment for years before I did it I think it was Chris Elliott and then her and then she did that whole long stretch and then me um and so see there's a pet trick right now there's a dog sitting right next to um good girl uh so she um so yeah she she didn't she didn't work out of the office she was working independently somewhere so I never interacted with with her I didn't know how the segment got put together but it was a crash course and um they uh uh stuck uh Diana Lewis with me uh who was their sort of I would almost say human interest person but she it wasn't just she was sort of anything Oddball like that was on the show was her find yep um and she was she just was one of these people who knew every like interesting unusual person had like connections to them and to and would just find the most interesting weird cool stuff and so when Susan um said that she was done they said to Diana like all right we're gonna get this guy to do it but you have to make sure he doesn't screw up so basically dump me in her lap um and she just showed me the ropes and it was you know uh like the sort of this the basics of like of you know once there was part of it was once you've actually found the person the mechanics of getting them to New York and getting them on the show that was the whole thing yeah but the you know what she would do to just try and find weirdos she was like this is basically how it works except for people with pets and like I think there was probably some overlap like um with with stupid human tricks at least yeah um you know she would like oh but the thing the thing that made it tough was you can't have professionals so people that she knew was like well this guy would be great but he does this for a living so we can't he can't he's not a regular person with a day job so we can't he can't do it they're not gonna have it so um it was like try to apply these things that I do but you're going to be going out and just talking to civilians and hoping that somebody's weird enough that they they taught themselves something or that they um you know taught their pets something but so many of the tricks that I saw were people had taught their pets to do something they had seen on the show and so it was like yeah yeah like can't no can't repeat um and it was like are you sure this was in 1986 are you sure we can't do this this 12 years later I don't think people nope can't repeat no Pros no repeats that was it did you have an encyclopedic knowledge of uh the segment and who had what who had been on what had been on or were there times where it's like yep we got a winner here and then you go to research it's like oh no we don't have a winner here I don't think that ever I think the things because the things that people tended to do from the show were memorable enough that I would have remembered just seeing them on the Show Gotcha and something that was like oh this was this would be good enough to be on the show like there's a thing you know the dog getting a beer out of the fridge yeah um was like yeah I know that's been on I recognize this I remember this so you didn't have to it didn't have to be that encyclopedic because the stuff that made the cut was memorable enough that you just you just kind of remembered it okay so it made the impression where it popped where you're like yep that's the one like it's it's just you don't know what you're looking for but you sure know it when you see it kind of a thing immediately 100% yeah okay it was it was rare at that point I mean it was tough to find things did you go out of the like did you travel on did you go on the road a lot or was it a lot of video tap a lot of phone calls combination of everything like what are we travel budget here's what I dug up I did um I would go on weekends I would work in the office during the week and then I would fly to different CBS Affiliates on the weekend to hold auditions oh my gosh the skill set you learned in this job from Logistics to dealing with people to an eye for talent oh my gosh you got an interesting skill set from this position and I found like and the other thing too that made it difficult was Dave didn't want on you know I think this was maybe a reaction to this is my theory it was a reaction to when when Leno would do headlines remember the headlines it would say if you've got a headline we want to hear it send it into and Dave was like we're not doing that like uh so I mean he didn't I never he never said who knows what he said or didn't say but that's a cool attitude though that's a cool kid's attitude and and that's we're not asking for help we're just going to work harder and do it ourselves yeah we're going to find it and show it to you rather than yes right and so I would beg like there was an 800 number I was like just put the 800 number up with the just before the credits please and they're like we can't can't do it but they eventually they we wouldn't do it in New York but some of the local affiliates would put a bumper in that would say like there we go and I think it was when we would schedule audition so it was like Dave's coming to town like but would say you know that's uh guess what it's you thought you were gonna see Dave it's that some college kid that's there like car um and so uh they would put up a thing that would say like you know there's going to be auditions in your city call this 800 number and so I found this flyer this was like this was the extent of our marketing budget oh God you got to scan that and S it to me are you kidding me here hold on let's let's uh let's make you big let's make you big here for a second so the audience can see it so this was like I think we I would you know email this I think yeah we were do an email at that point but initially fax it but uh um to say like hey put please put this flyer up I think I sent this to like pet stores to like um you know where else I would have sent it anything anything animal related I would send this flyer and say please can you do it and this there's like a little cover letter and uh oh that's fantastic and then they would take out also a little this was the extent of the marketing budget for newspapers oh my God a teeny tiny Square this is what I was working with like I hope someone sees this in the paper and remembers it and like you know it was tough we had we had a little a marketing budget and that was all through um you know like CBS would handle that because they would work directly with the Affiliates and local markets they would do you know newspaper buys and stuff and the Press office was great because when we when I would come and do the auditions every like newspaper was there they would do a nice piece for the local CBS News like uh you know I I was just looking through like stacks of newspapers from like Cincinnati and Jacksonville and Portland like they got a lot of like great coverage from this like the the CBS press people were like they were on top of it and so it was always really well attended and there was always like you know because it was pet and human tricks there was always like interesting weird people doing stuff and things where I was like this is cool but like it's just not like it's just not quite for the segment like I wish that this was there was and I don't if I did I take it something I don't know one of the Florida stops I think had um a kid and his picture was like big in the paper because it was a great visual he had a bunch of little lizards salamanders or something like that lizards like about this long yep and they would he would clip them onto his ears and nostrils and they would just bite and like hang on his face and he's just so the picture of this kid with lizards hanging on his face I was like this like if I was like a newspaper feature editor like this would be giant photo on the front page but for like for a video kind of thing like it it's there's not like setup and payoff and so it's just yeah what are you gonna do here oh hold on it'll take me two minutes to yeah exactly kind of set up and then it'll look Jig Is up after the first one and then you're waiting for the other ones to come on and it was like and the energy goes yeah and so I was like I've never seen anyone do this it's hysterical the image is great and it was killing me I was like I I wish I wish I you don't know how badly I wish I could put this on the show but but it's just not going to make the cut um you know one of the things that I loved about that segment and I think the one that I'm going to describe here famous enough that you'd know it I think it was probably after your time was when a a pet could do a conventional trick in a new way um like like the the one that I'm going to you know say the play dead one you know oh the dog's gonna play dead and you see Dave almost kind of go oh really and then you know play dead and then the dog goes limping the guy's arm it's and it's amazing it's the most amazing play dead that you've ever seen and it's got kind of a new spin to it I don't know if that was yours but but was that one yours was that one that was but but the idea that you're probably you know delighted if you see a dog do a conventional trick with a Twist I'm certain that's a something that that was a big thing yeah I mean you were look The Twist was everything and sometimes it was just the the visual too the way that dog just kind of like folded in half over the guy's arm like it was the the the thing that they always wanted to do was give Dave I'm not sure Dave ever saw video of the tricks before the show I think it went up to Maria Pope and I think she made the final call yeah um and D you were there Dave was still doing rehearsals too right uh or would he do rehearsals with the with the stupid pet tricks or was that somebody else who would do those he I don't think he was there for when we would rehears pet tricks okay he was I mean he would do like the daily you know like he's at the desk running mon like I remember what yeah he was still doing that until after after 911 I believe is when that uh when he stopped doing the rehearsal thing you were there while he was still doing rehearsals but would do rehearsals for stupid pet tricks no um and the and a whole part of the thing because the best thing was to get Dave's honest reaction to a trick yes and so the the whole key and I guess it was Maria that would write these Maria Pope was a um SE senior segment producer I think at that point trying desperately to get her on the show I adore oh really yeah I had a nice little moment with her at Rupert's retirement thing and I got to tell her how much I appreciated her and whatnot and she behind the scenes I there have been so many things as you can imagine said to me Ben about Maria how much people people enjoy yeah I mean talk about being like in the nerve center of this whole thing but she like and I so I think she would write these descriptions and so like da you know Dave would have the card with the description but it's not 100% clear from the description what's going to happen and that was the way that those were the big like and I went through to kind of refresh my memory and I remember we had a guy um where the the the the intro line was he's gonna give himself a wedgie uh and so it's like you know this is going to be interesting and funny like so what is the thing how is it going to work and he would he could dislocate his shoulder and put his hand he took his shirt off so you could see the whole joint popping out and he would go over behind his back all the way down to his underpants and and pull them up out of the back of his pants and like that was the perfect prototype of like Dave's gonna know something funny is coming he's not gonna know exactly how it's gonna hit yeah but it's going to get a huge reaction he's going to laugh at it legitimately because it's a ridiculous thing to see um so that's that's we're always striving for uh and there was the one where um a good pet version of this was we had a dog who plays uh plays Fetch with himself yep and so that was this person had a a little like a catapult and I feel like I've seen this on the internet since and maybe somebody like makes sells these now so this dog would take put a tennis ball in this little bucket of this catapult it with his nose and step on a pedal that would launch the tennis ball and then he would run and catch it so to say like you wouldn't you know Maria was the one who like you don't write dog operates catapult and play you like he plays Fetch with himself and he's like well how is this GNA work yeah and then the visual plus the surprise of seeing the you know the dog do these this like multi-step mechanical thing and I remember that that dog's owner was like he does this all day like he'll do this he'll get up and go to the thing and just like we won't see him and so it was uh that was it was so great to when you could see Dave his honest reaction to these things and you knew something was ahead it was like it's like yes that was we did it we got we got one um there there's such a um we it's so crazy how we haven't really focused an entire episode on stupid human or stupid p and stupid human tricks we've had participants and whatnot on the show here from from the segment but it's really cool deconstructing this with you Ben I'm having a a great time doing that um to to just zoom out just a little bit this is one of the areas where I think we see some of the Alchemy of late night and late show at the beginning one of the things that that that Merill and other people wanted to do was surprise the host more because if they surprise the host um you know the host happens in this case to be one of the best you know from the hip reactors on the planet that that that we've ever seen but the problem was is that the host did not want to be surprised and and and and that they they they cut that noise off pretty quick and and so um you know the the goal was is that he would act surprise or or the reaction would be that good or there would be that much spontaneity that you would still get the the feeling that they were looking for when it was surprise the host but here's one of the places where the surprise actually kind of stayed intact where the the the balance that was struck was okay this segment will be produced well enough that Dave can come in not knowing the exact what's going to happen so you can get that honest to God reaction that you're talking about here so I just I just wanted to make that point because we've kind of talked about that on the show before and it's interesting that this is one of those segments where um where the spontaneity was intact yeah and you really um that's definitely true and you um I think we even got a little extra leeway because of the fact that you're dealing with animals you just don't know what's going to happen like the you know one of the greatest that wasn't mine but one of the greatest pet tricks of all time is when he bends over to kind of kiss the dog and the dog lunges and takes to take part take his nose off like they could have rehearsed all day with him on the stage and it wouldn't they would never have been prepared for it and yeah you know it's funny because they did like that to me is so much of there's not any element of that left anymore like nothing is a surprise and like there's it's been like you can't complain really because the people that are doing it now like they're all like crafts people like they are you know it's all sort of finely tuned and home and rehearsed and like you can't get mad at that but there's so little that's allowed to just sort of a weird a weird thing that happens like that nobody was ready for yeah and I think there was much more you know as as as you say like as um opposed as Dave was to like big surprises they had plenty on that show whether it was he also like you know every Andy Kaufman visit every Harvey PE car visit like he I think it was more like I I I think he may it may have just been him talking about I don't want to be surprised but I think he had to know on some level like well you know I might not like this but this is going to be memorable and it I will be able to handle it like it's not he he was never at a he never missed a a moment there was never a moment like that that he didn't absolutely cap like perfectly absolutely so you know you could see why they kept doing it even if he protested like well this is too good like you're just going to have to live with for for sure and to go back to the example that you you gave Andy calman um would meticulously even if Dave didn't necessarily see it but with the writers or with the producers or whatever would meticulously and then you had somebody um uhh oh Chrisman Glover like Chrisman Glover when he did the kick right and he's just like oh I just want to be like like I don't know if he actually said this or not but the the Scuttle butt is he's like I just wanted to be I was trying to be like Andy Kaufman and and that and the producers were like at the time they were like no you don't get it they're they're that that kind of spontan doesn't happen that yeah like like you know I love Andy Kaufman I've always loved Andy coffin but in anything that I've done creatively I it I can't I don't even approach considering doing something anything like you did like it was there are people who are like like it's just not not only do I know that I wouldn't be good at it but just like um I have such appreciation for it but it's like there's not that many people that can do this and anyone who tries to do it you know it's once in a generation really someone can come along like you remember the um um walking Phoenix tried it you know uh of course yeah it was like yeah it was weird and everything but everybody and I'm pretty sure they knew the staff knew at that point like or at least maybe just Dave had known like he's gonna come out and do like a thing and like there's no it's just not I think I think things are maybe just too tightly controlled and there's you know maybe there's more lawyers now and so people have to be informed of everything but yeah um you know there was more when I was there there was more like um like there were still moments I think it was when either when I I don't remember was when I was an intern or when I'd come back but that was the I was there for the phof faucet show we just talked about not too long ago y yeah and so that's a thing you know I'm I you know uh I hope I don't know all the ins and outs of that or what she might have been going through at the time or anything but uh and it was at maybe right after the Madonna interview the infamous madon well that was the yes the it was it was moments like that those Infamous moments that were like that that the Drew Barry Mo with the Madonna um you know different some of these different moments that happened that were clearly uh you know where they brought something to the table that nobody expected yeah you know well and with M you know like the Drew Barrymore thing was like you know uh obviously didn't see that coming and it was like such it came from like a sweet place of like fun silly thing to do but then if you're a Madonna and you come out and you try and like you know and I understand like that's her thing and she you know has her own um identity and everything that she's developed and continues to develop over the years but like sure David's gonna eat your lunch he's just like this is not the show to try and top the host like it uh exactly and but it was memorable and but it was just you're just as memorable as it's going to be and people will talk about it you'll be in the papers you'll be on the Nightly News and everything but ultimately you're you're just not GNA win that one like this is the wrong guy um and any I feel like any of the hosts now would in in that position would be equally as you know Stephen Kara could absolutely slice and dice anyone that he wants to yep but there's just not that that that sort of like little bit of edginess the closest one that has that Ed Kimmel Kimmel's the closest one that has the edge with with with other people around I mean your John Olivers and your bill Mars and all that well okay but but but but for Kimmel I think is the one that emulates the edge like you could tell I I went again shout out to Joanna thank you very much I was in I was down in in LA in May and she you know gave me the gold star treatment at a Kimmel taping and and and and uh you know listening to him have a conversation with I believe it was Chris Pine that night to have a conversation about mushrooms and and some of these things like you can tell over the years the less FS he gives um and and to me it's made him a much better you know he's like no I'm going to take time off I'm going to have a little bit of work life balance in this thing you want to keep me you're going to you know that that to see that um uh self-confidence show up I don't even call it ego I think it's just self-confidence he's paid his dues and and he's able to say some of these things uh that are that are Dave ask I would think and of course look who his mentor is yeah he's got the Letterman Gene deep I mean like in his BMS but the you know it's also it is confidence because the idea like remember again during this late night War period the idea of having a guest host yep like you know Dave had to have five bypasses before anyone else would set foot on that stage yep and K up the chair that's what Morty said they were thinking about Ros o' donnald thinking about Rosie O'Donald as the permanent guest host right around the time you're talking about here when you were there just maybe a year or two before they were talking about Rosie as the permanent guest host and and it was no not yet never give up the chair yeah but there was yeah that was the so the upside of the end like the late night Wars like it was was fun and it was good fod and you know fun to have enemies and and feuds and all this stuff yeah but the upside of it now is that these you know the hosts now are like it's just a show like we can have some fun with this it's okay I can take some time off and now these people that you know someone who's not a white man named James can host a TV show for a night and maybe someone will recognize that other types of people can do this job and so absolutely I can give them this platform without you know there's whatever it well there's more now than ever I guess five six seven plat forms like this but here's a chance to let some other people shine who are not going to get this look and it doesn't cost me anything to do that and like it's I'm not fighting for my life and at the time you know like rate like what are even television ratings anymore like what are they like what are they fighting over it's a 100 thousand people one way or another Y and so you know at the time with when Dave moved to CBS it was you know like he was starting this franchise it was a big deal there was a lot big story in entertainment in all of entertainment it was the biggest story yeah so I can see why it's like I can't screw this up and I can't take a day off and it's me it's my name on that giant Marquee they paid for and if if I screw this up it's not going to be because I didn't work hard enough and so you know the like I feel like he has these these guys all mellow with age Dave certainly has and absolutely being a father obviously seems to have mellowed him considerably but yeah Jimmy too and and you know they they still you know it's like sort of a retired prize fighter you know like you know if they got back into the ring they could probably still win some fights oh yeah but they're happy with where they are and and you know yeah Kimmel has like and it's especially impressive with Kimmel because he works for Disney yep Disney like you know you can't like chew gum in the amusement park when you work for Disney like so the fact that he he pushes as much as he does and gets away with what he does you know it's a testament to his talent and to his value to the to the company but then the moment that he needs to do something for one of the tent poles he's game and and I mean he happens to be a comic book fan so Marvel he happens to be a Star Wars fan like like so so the idea that he can um you know happily authentically do what Dave always refused to do you know Dave Dave Dave set up against you know management well Jimmy happens to work for a company who you know first off they let him do whatever he wanted to do to start so I'm sure there's some gratefulness there I mean you think of the beginning of Jimmy Kimmel Live and how different it is now oh yeah radio coming off radio The Man Show um I you know it's funny I saw him uh where I I I watched The Man Show um I'm up in Canada and so so our we we we get our programming is a little bit different in the order of when we get it uh compared to the US sometimes it's a little bit later it's a different um it's delayed so for me wi Ben Stein's Money was actually where I discovered Jimmy and fell in love with him did too like I loved Ben and it was a good hook for a show or whatever but Jimmy was what kept me coming back to that show I I thought he was incredible and it was the on liners it was the thing that I loved about Dave the the really quick Rapier like wit yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah he seems to have like it's funny and I know he's very publicly maybe not anymore but at there was a time he was very publicly anti- Leno oh yeah but he did he seems to have melded like you know the sort of team player type stuff of Leno but he he like he's he's kind of like a Don Rickles where like he will go and insult Frank Sinatra right to his face yep but he gets away like he he's in this position where he has The credibility and so like when he does these Disney and ABC events half the time he's like tearing them apart sure but they love I thought he was a fantastic Oscar host and at their upfronts and stuff and like the upfronts where it really you know in front of the advertisers where like he talks about how crappy the false schedule is or whatever not that there's a false schedule anymore but like you know the he's he's taken that sort of team player stuff of Jay and the kept the anti-establishment stuff of Dave and it's sort of like the The Best of Both Worlds and tight I'm gonna say it's not J I'm gonna say it's Johnny you know I I I I think it's I think it's honestly I think he inherited the reverence for Johnny that Dave did and and Johnny when you think about upfronts in NBC events and hosting the Oscars and things like that that's that's a that's all Carson stuff as well right and and uh I listened to oh I want to say it might have been on Mars podcast Jimmy was a I'm pretty sure it was that Jimmy was a recent guest and he talks about Leno still and it's I don't I don't know that the feeling that you're talking about that he has towards Jay has mellowed I think he just is a little bit picky and choosy as to if he's gonna open up the door like I I I we were we were a hair away from getting Jimmy here and it's gonna happen I wanted to get him for for for the two-year and it almost happened but that scheduling wise it couldn't uh but that's one of the I want to go down that path with him I don't talk Jay on the show that much but um except for you know the the macro of things and you know we we compare like having Bill Carter on of course we're going to talk Leno like but but uh but I do want to talk to Jimmy about that because the idea of Jay you know during the The Late Shift to not knowing if Jay was gonna stay with NBC so he you know kind of befriended Jimmy and then oh no I'm just gonna go back and do like like and then Jimmy's reaction how he came out and did an entire show of him the the 10 at 10 segment that he did is one of in my opinion the greatest moments in any late night franchise moment ever was was was that and and I would love do that stick with it and to not wink during it like oh it's all put on like he you know like he has that he has that deep down love for Dave yes and so it really is like a personal affront and so like for me you know like I grew up on Dave and then the whole Jay and Conan thing that happened number two where so I got I got two versions of this where I was like you know did did he do this to my other guy too like oh man and so uh like you know I by all you know we all know Jay by all accounts sweet guy nice guy like makes phone calls like reaches out to people and everything but for whatever reason like he protects his stuff though he's yeah I uh to watch the whole thing sort of Replay through that the Conan Tonight Show situation like and I know I knew a lot of people on that show that uprooted their lives moved out here like and not like you know not all like highle people that could afford to just change their lives like a lot you know ordinary staffers and like man and the thing that was uh maybe it was when might have been when Norm was on Letterman and they were no who was it no it must have been Conan it must have been Dave talking to Conan or some at some point Dave was like or maybe it was just one of his like sort of you know the cuff moments at the top of the show but just like to say like they that NBC told Jay like well you're in five years you're leaving whether you like it or not and then after that time them being like can you please stay like the there's one kind of person that's like good yes I'll stay and I'll keep doing my thing and there's another kind of person that's like oh no you you made your choice and now I'm gonna make you eat it I'm the top late night guy I'm getting all the ratings I'm going to take my audience and go somewhere else yep and I'm you make them eat their lunch or something like that I think it's what phrase that was used and that was yeah that ex he had everything he had all the leverage and he still wanted like it was whatever you know um in him that's like maybe we can make it work maybe we everyone can have everything that they want and it's again like it was sort of like it wasn't didn't have the real maybe it did I don't know the real vitriol of the like ongoing nightly we got to check the ratings in the morning to see if there's any movement in the but it was just like a Conan who was the nicest I mean people say that Jay is the nice in my experience Conan like long after I left there I was able to like call him and go and like hang out and meet with him ask him questions about stuff and like wow no there's no reason for him to I was only ever uh I like I said I worked a little bit of production there but yeah just an intern like there's no reason on Earth for him to ever make any time for a former in and I know I'm not the only person like anyone that you talk to had but everyone that he works with seems to have that kind of relationship with him Y and so it's one thing to be like oh it's cranky Dave and it's team player Jay but then it's like wait he did that to Conan Conan is like the ultimate like you know I'll do whatever you need me to do like this is his thing and he wanted this and so uh yeah I don't know how we got down this this path no I'm glad but okay but you're you're talking about in my opinion like like for me and I sure love a lot of Letterman eras I mean there's a lot of uh you know my favorite but my favorite Letterman era of all time was in 09010 when late shift 2 was happening and watching Dave every single night and and this is the moment with Jimmy that we're talking about and and all of that stuff um you know I watch Conan O'Brien can't stop which is the documentary made about when he went on live tour after losing The Tonight Show I watch that I don't know I watch that every every at least once a year I mean I like I I just it was a fascinating time it is just you know and it's so funny that all this tumult like the late night world at that time was like this tiny little it's like an it was you know originally an afterthought of Television broadcasting and it always kind of was and I like why is there this much drama packed into this tiny little you know three four people three four guys that this is about how can it be this insane that there's this much soap opera hiding in closets and like and all this stuff and so when it's when it's your the thing that you like the segment of entertainment that you identify with the most closely like it was it really took on this crazily outsized importance of like you know like does does Jay care that I think he did something wrong does Dave care that I'm defending it like oh this guy you know random people think that I got screwed over or whatever like why why were we so involed well but then watching Cody but watching Conan's audience mobilized like the Team Coco movement of that like that was like it was beautiful it it was it was a viral Uprising moment to which now I mean you look at the franchise that Conan O'Brien is now and what he has done and and it's funny because you know Dave got screwed over and so he created the franchise that would literally topple the dominance of The Tonight Show no other Ed AC Street built this amazingi um crystallized career that nobody's ever had and and I mean I always use the Godfather analogy it's not a matter of who's the king it's who's the Godfather right now you know you know um Johnny was was was veto and and Dave is Michael you know that's the way I kind of look at it Conan after getting screwed over has gone and done the same thing uh you know his massive massive serious deal that he made Coco and the and the podcast Network and the travel shows amazing and I don't know did you catch him when he was on Fallon a few nights ago when he came back to The Tonight Show did you catch that no I didn't see that it was crazy because he he walked out and he seemed not just physically he seemed bigger than the show and and it was it was a it's a fantastic clip to go back and watch um the entirety of for sure he seemed I he seemed to intimidate Jimmy to me I thought Jimmy was you know and I I like I don't I don't I don't dislike jimy Jimmy Fallon he's got he's a very very very talented man um but watching Conan come back was awesome I hope that Conan is a guest on my next guest one day I hope uh that would be to me that would phenomenal it does but just now that they're both in a place where they can just speak freely and it's funny how they ended up you know like the podcast gig and those travel shows like that's the best like for Conan like I you know to me it I don't know how he experienced it or felt it or whatever and I know that he I seems that he just loved every part of the being the host of these shows yeah but to see him talk to you know like the third guest or like the you know he always say uses paully sha as his you know to his uh Whipping Boy like I got there and talk to paully Shaw for seven minutes yeah like anybody can sit and talk to a celebrity like when Conan does these travel shows where he's out with regular people Y and he doesn't like he was at a point where they got to a point where Dave that you know the whole rert bit with the video they couldn't be out in public anymore without a big thing Conan just by going to other countries now like he his rapport with people and the the speed and the wit like this is the perfect thing like it was like he was wasting his time behind a desk like as sort of the the captain of this like weird comedy movement that came after Letterman with like Smigel and and Dino stamatopoulos and like all these like sort of real oddballs that found a home in this place as the like the of that ship like he created this this or you know brought to the world this kind of style of Comedy that wasn't happening anywhere else so like that end of itself hall of fame done but then his personal skill set of connecting with people and being in act like legitimately interested in people in their lives and going up to anybody on any Street Corner in any foreign country in any language like it's this is such a better use of his talent than sitting and talking to Paulie Shore so as painful as the process might have been like this is to me seems like what he's what he should have been doing all along yeah and and and he's chartering something just as unique as as as what Dave is doing right now it's so great to see that um I I I've been I'm so grateful of the generosity with your time here I do have a couple places I want to bring it back to stupid petrick if that's okay please um so so you you finish okay so the stupid petrick's um event itself that there's the preparation for the event itself I've got questions about both let's go to the event itself okay it's stupid petrick's night um you're on stage for everything correct you're there you're there for the whole thing is that I think I'm backstage let's see I guess I would I would be in the green room I wouldn't be in the wings because there wasn't a ton of room back there yep um and sort of the less distractions backstage for the animals the better yep so I think I must have been behind did you ever get um see this sort of little room the area off The Green Room backstage so you know there's like when you come in off the stage door kind of um off of 53rd Street not the office door but the one kind of further down the block across from rosand like it is it's tight in there and like the there was always too many people in there and nobody would ever like actually sit in the green room but I was always trying to kind of find a monitor where I could stand and watch what was going on but at that point it was like you know I guess like with the segment producers they might go over notes last minute with the guest or like you know don't forget you're going to lead into this story that story whatever like there's nothing for me to say to the dogs to be like don't forget so like there wasn't I don't think there was so much of a need once they they were booked and they picked the order um you know I'd be backstage just in case anybody had questions or anything but the segment itself was just like you know it was B Biff would bring them out and have you know get them in place and send them out and bring them off and that was all part of the well-oiled machine and I think it was just you know it could absolutely have happened if I had still been sitting up in the office and nobody would have noticed but I for for those show nights I was like I'm going down to the stage I don't care how crowded it is like I'm GNA find a a monitor to stand by and make sure that this works like I'm kind of crouched in like you know I'm like elbowing Tom Malone like through the like that's how kind of packed in are through thing but you have an excuse to be there so damn right you're gonna be there yeah I was like this is the one night they're not gonna yell at me to leave so I'm I I'm make the most of it that actually brings me up to that next question there the majority of the time that you actually sh saw the show being shot or parts of the show or on stage level were parts of the segment were there any other times where you did that obviously Dave is Infamous for not wanting from faces ke poking around and things like that he's know I was never there I mean I would never I just made sure to not go there until I knew he was like through and on to the stage like even if I was gonna be there for the show I was like yeah I'm just gonna hang out on the sidewalk until I know like till I hear the music then I know I can go in um I'm trying to think if I was there for certainly as an intern you would go back there to like um you know run errands for people or like such and such wants this or that can you run up to the bodega and get a thing or what he wants this kind of drink or coffee or whatever um or wait can you please bring this up to someone there's always things you know it was that was sort of more later in the intern period yep because the you know the Le There Was You Know Joanna was the top of the talent Department then there was a level of sort of talent coordinators that reported to her that was Leslie Cahill and um and Celia Converse and Zoe fredman um and so they would do most of like the kind of Hands-On I mean Joan would handle all the real like A-list Platinum yeah but kind of below that she could can do everything so you know there wasn't after that second level the interns didn't really and it was probably for the best they didn't send interns backstage too often to interact with you know but if it was a sort of a lowlevel request like go and bring this to someone's dressing room and knock on the door whatever um but I don't remember having a ton of like celebrity interactions or kind of brushes with the show as it was happening like during music act yeah music Act is coming up or whatever any rememberable ones that you would go and see I'm trying to think of who I saw down there um H that's a tough one I would you know you couldn't really do that as an intern by the time I was doing petrick um I probably could have gone down and sat in more rehearsals but I was uh I was always like mid nous breakdown um because the I was like I need to be on the phone I can't because this is the thing like you know this was the oh this like this is is my job like hanging in the balance like this is what I got going for me so if the phone rings and I'm not there because I went down to see Blues Traveler or you know like uh that's not not not good um so I was when it was tough because it was you can't you gotta wait for the phone to ring there's nothing to do except hope the phone rings hope the somebody's VHS tape shows up and that it's something like you can't there's no UCB or there's no like uh you know Second City to go and Scout town there's you just have to hope that somebody somewhere taught their dog something and thought bothered to put it on tape and cared enough about the show and like and was aware even that the you know like it was there's so many things had to happen for this job to go right and so much is out of your control that I was just constantly like you know like this is I'm screwing this up I'm screwing this up like it was it was hard to really like at Conan when I was an intern in Conan it was all like not going to fire an intern what's the big deal like I'll go you know go around and do whatever but at at when I got to letter I was I was like I got to be all business like I there's it was it was hard to take advantage of too much of like the fun stuff yeah because it was I was putting it was a high pressure place to begin with and you know everybody handled it well enough but I was really and my first job out of college and like I really I I think I ran myself ragged to a point that I I probably didn't need to but I well so many people had you know gone to the mat for me and recommendations and taken a chance on me I was like I can't I can't again not if I'm gonna let these people down it's not going to be for lack of effort like I'm G to do whatever I can so I it was I didn't have so many moments like that at um Letterman as I did at count in SNL I I I uh oh first off did you submit any top 10 I don't think I ever got around you know what I must have because I submitted a packet to them but not during the the the Scuttle the activity of the show hey we need this is the sometimes they would send a call out to everybody and saying this is the you know do you have do you have anything that was anything that you ever I don't think I ever did I don't think I ever got a hand on those they must have just not come through the talent department or something we were we were on 11 the writers were on 14 yeah if I'm remembering right and so I think I never I don't think I ever made it to having a mailbox kind of mail but again because I was stepping into a job where Susan had not worked in the office so there was no they're like we got to find a desk for this guy like where do we put him what do we do and so it was a real like kind of catches catch can situation so I I I did miss out on that I remember they I guess they did that and they at a they were at a point where they did they call them the man who you know y yep like now a man who or you know from New York the city where blah blah blah and I I I don't think I ever got a chance to pitch on any of those or even just to I feel like I I would you know I don't remember how that exactly worked but thinking about it now I feel like if I had gotten one on the show I would have been over the moon but then I also would have been like if one of these pet segments goes wrong and I was busy writing it trying to write a joke for the show yep that's not a great look so I really I was really obsessed with like don't screw just don't screw this up like okay so so so there's a there's a culture um a personality uh that that that many if not most of the worldwide pants family have and there's there's some attributes to it number one is self-deprecation it just seems to be something that just great to have yeah yeah oh the other one the other one is is I was working myself into a nervous breakdown um and and and just wanting to wanting to do so well wanting to do well for the show for Dave for every to not let anybody down and it seems that so many people had that that same feeling now uh correct me if I'm wrong you you found your uh relationship there did you find is that uh true so so you're the guy that's going across the country single uh you know going and and and able to do that because you don't have a family at home you're able to travel and and and and kind of have this hyperfocus on the show uh but then at some point there's a love story that develops and I I'm super curious if you be want to talk about that yeah sure there uh I had come back you know I was like three months out of being an intern and I was you know working there and so I started I guess in January and so the new the fresh class of interns had just come in and like I said they didn't to start off with they couldn't figure out where to put me and so they're like would you mind like it's called intern alley the little kind of tiny room where they would cram six or eight interns into um and so uh they're like can would you mind just you know setting up an intern they were like we understand you're not an intern anymore we're not going to ask you to do this and that although there were certainly times where they would they would say like we know you're not an intern anymore but uh you know could just cover the phones for a minute or like there's a muscle memory here please we know you can do this please do this yeah exactly like it just has to get done can you please just do it and so they were always great to me about that they they didn't take advantage of that but I was started out stationed in internality there because there was the only kind of like a sliver of a desk and so I got to know that class of talent and research interns pretty well um but I didn't you know we didn't spend too much time you know there's a lot of time to clown around during the day and you know sure and uh you know get to know people and everything and just like punctuated by like emergency moments here and there um and so I got to know this group of interns and uh you know but they would kind of go out because I was living with my parents in Connecticut at that point so I would take be out of to Grand Central as soon as I could and get on the train and get home and go to bed and come back and do it again um so I was like yeah I get friendly and it was a lot of like uh at the end of the um I guess I I was only there about six months while doing pet tricks and so I guess I guess my tenure and their tenure might have ended around the same time around the same like semester or something what at whatever point where it was like well hey so long keep in touch and whatever and um and uh one of the interns Samantha horse was like hey here's here's my email we in you know I had like a good nice relationship with everybody and I oh we'll keep in touch and whatever and she had lived um she was living in Chicago uh and um I was talking with a friend of mine about possibly going to Chicago and doing like Second City there um and so I said like uh hey you know I might I'm talking I might end up in Chicago at some point she's like oh well here take my email address and um you know we exchanged regular addresses too and I think she mailed me a like an apartment guide or something like one of those ones you know free things you pick up off the street it's like hey here's what the apartments are like and so we started corresponding over email um and uh you know once she didn't have to look at me that much I think I became more appealing and um I was able to over time like we built this relationship and then it was you know after a couple months was like Hey are are we are we kind of like feels like maybe we're we're crossing a line of some sort yeah and and uh and um she came back to New York what was I doing was I I might have been yeah I think maybe this was when I was at SNL or maybe just floundering at this point but she was like oh I'm coming back to New York to visit some friends and I was like oh well we should you know she it was like to visit you and some friends and so you know we she got to town and we spent some time together and it was like uh I I after that moved to Boston um to work on Dr cats do you remember that you ever see that show Dr cats I know the show Dr cats absolutely I assume you would know yeah so I I I another job I got through an intern connection Holly slesinger who I was I was an intern with at Letterman and who put a word in for me to work at Dr cats and so I moved to Boston and at that point you know Sam and I were you know were saying okay I guess we're a couple but you're in Chicago and I'm in New York and so she said like well maybe I could live in B she had finished school at that point was like maybe I'll try and get a job in Boston and so I was like well you could stay with me while you're looking for a job and so she flew out to Boston and um you know like she like all right I'll just stay in your apartment and I'll look around and see if I can find something and then she just didn't leave that was it and uh he was like well why would we it was like why do you need another apartment like why don't we just that was it and so uh yeah it doesn't seem fiscally responsible to do that exactly that was that was my concern the numbers really it just didn't um you know uh yeah and then we got married in uh we've been married 21 years almost oh that's fantastic so yeah I mean if I got nothing else out of Letterman that that was a pretty nice bonus both still in the creative uh Endeavors in the show business uh you know or or is that just you right now just me she got a real job she's a teacher a special ed teacher um so she does something important yeah um yeah so she teach she went she ended up um uh she started like trying to work in entertainment and then she ended up did some stuff in advertising for a while and that she was like this is not for me and at some point she was just like I think I want to do something you know with my life and she went and got her Master's and her teaching certificate and and um she's become that teacher that like every parent like continues to email like for the rest of their lives like uh she's that teacher yeah yeah she really is and um that's amazing it's it's extremely lucky in yet another way to have to found Sam um so what are you doing now and and what have you done like since Letterman you've done a lot of stuff I I'd like to like to talk a little bit about that you've got a uh a pretty cool track record of accomplishments of things that you've done um let's go through some of the some of the high points and and what you're doing now it's more like a just continued story of like falling ass backwards into things and um uh like I was in uh after I got out of Dr cats I came back to New York and I was worked in an internet startup right when like the big internet startup boom was happening and I got hired at a company through a guy who I had done improv and a UC guy through UCB was like we need people and uh so I was at this internet startup for a while I worked wait a second I'm people I can do this yeah people sure okay I can do that it was it was some crazy you know another one of these places that like changed their business plan every couple of months like yeah oh yeah maybe this is something um so I kind of lived through like and that place kind of got whittel down and whittel down until it was like you know four people in the office and Y I was like maybe it's time to find find something else uh so I another guy who I did comedy with was working at a publishing company and he brought me into to do like temp work there and I ended up kind of having a nice career there for a while or it would have been a nice career if it was something that I wanted to do with my life yeah um but uh then at a you know I was still doing like writing and Performing and you know I was gonna ask if you were still doing improv stuff and whatnot and so that that performer never left you that was always there and that was always something that you nurtured maybe a little bit more at times or whatever you still always kept putting uh yeah I did like I started out acting like in high school like you know most people do and I but I never occurred to me and it was fun to do improv like with friends and we did the college circuit for a little bit which was fun and stupid and silly and um but it was never like oh I bet I could make a living at this uh it just seemed crazy um especially like living in New York and it seemed like everything was happening in LA and yeah so I was like all this is just for fun and but at a certain point I like I was like I really can't maybe I should really try this and people that I had gone to school with had moved out here to LA and were like having like legitimate success like some like very nice incredible success um and I was like well maybe it can you know maybe it can be done and so I came out here and I thought again like the people that I knew were writers mostly so I thought well I'll write some scripts and maybe they you know and they to their credit like they would got me meetings with managers and things here and there and but it always sort of seemed to hit a wall when it was like well this is good but who you know who are you like why would anybody like it was just of like this is a good script but who's like do you have someone attached to it or you're not a name you need a name and I just could never really get over that hump of of getting past someone saying well I like this but yeah and um at that point another guy had gone to school with Adam Goldberg who was the people know as the creator of the Goldbergs yeah um Creator and and semi semi star in a way of The Goldbergs uh he had had he had sold a show at that point to Fox and he said why don't you come just be like an extra on this sitcom like I've they gave me like six episodes or something they gave him some like tiny little deal that I'm sure I hope that they're kicking themselves to this day but um he was like come be an extra like it's a long you know it's a 12 13 hour day I think you get a 100 bucks and but you're on a set and um I'll try and like throw you a line and you can get like a line on TV and so uh had I did that and I had one little clip of me saying a line on a network sitcom and from just from that I was able to meet an agent and get an agent who was like well I don't really work with people who are new at this um but then she thought about and she's like no maybe all right let's work together and so the first agent you know I lucked into knowing Adam I lucked into him selling a show I lucked into getting a line on his show I lucked into meeting this agent who was like extremely diligent did not have to work nearly as hard as she worked W certainly for someone in my position um and she just started getting me auditions and they were all for shows that I loved and watched and because I think because I knew these shows so well I started like booking little Parts on them and uh I was like oh so it turns out it's really easy to be an actor like it's hard to be a writer but they just put you on that's nothing anybody could do that yeah so I built up like this you know sort of resume of of being like the bit part guy on the it was always somebody in a uniform a construction worker a cop a park ranger a security guard like um but I had like a as long as I was with this agent I had a really nice run of like of bookings and stuff and um she's no longer an agent unfortunately and so and then we kind of ran into the pandemic and the strikes and now everything is sort of crazy now it's different there now isn't it yeah it is and so I'm um uh you know I've had another I had a couple small parts in like Little Indie movies and another sitcom that's coming up um with where I got to uh it's called St Dennis medical it's gonna be on NBC and one of the stars is Wendy McLendon cubby who I was my old buddy from Goldbergs oh that was the other end of the story is that after Adam sold the Goldbergs which is massive catastrophic runaway absolutely he was like okay now I can put you on a show with some regularity and so he would had be on for a bunch of thing you know I was one of the sort of you know oddballs in their neighborhood show up and you know smartmouth Jeff Garland or whoever and so you know I I it was a fun set to work on if Kevin Smith's willing to go and direct a couple episodes like it's got to be a good crew it's got to be a good it looks like the production of that was a lot of fun again like it's my part of it is my crazy luck I think and part of it I think is that Adam Goldberg happens to be one of like the planet's nicest people and another guy who as far as I can tell seems like impervious to stress like there were things on that show like where I know he got put through the ringer for all kinds of different reasons um and he was just never not smiling or like see like any time I saw him he was like you know he was like he just didn't it just didn't seem to affect him and I think that that you know I think that like you set that established that at the top and all the way down people are like oh it's cool like we're we can enjoy ourselves we can like this job and have fun and be nice to people and you know like I've been on sets where like the person who you're doing the scene with is like oh yeah hey and then I've been on that's where the biggest star on the show is like hey do you go want to run lines like if you want to come to my trailer I can do your scene with you and like like people like you know massive people like Patricia Heaton I worked with and Andre Brower rest in peace like people who I like were like massive massive talents and massive celebrities and were like as humble as you could want them to be and those have been the vast majority of my experiences and then you know every once in a while you get a you know you get a dud but which makes a notable story or that's that's you know you mentioned the uh the apartment hying so that's very New York what you're describing now that's also that's very Showbiz and and and to have that element of it as well but it not being the overwhelming majority of the experience it's kind of fun that's that's a little bit of color that that's that's that's actually not a bad thing when you consider the rest of it as good yeah for sure like what I I don't know why I left him off one of the nicest friendliest easy most easygoing people I ever worked with was Matt LeBlanc oh that's I worked with him on he show episodes that was after friends yeah I was like if anyone has like earned the right to Be a Jerk It's Like These six people that have created this Global phenomenon and generated God knows how much money for people yeah and we it was like an overnight shoot and he he was just like sitting there like shooting the breeze like and it's sort like when someone at that level can be that sort of you know who cares this this is just a job where you're having fun like it really sort of it's a great lesson for some like a day player to learn like oh like it's not all like backstabbing and people like doesn't have to be like that like people that are have the most pressure on them are perfectly capable of being friendly and welcoming and normal Wendy McLendon is another great example of that you know so um yeah I've been again Super Lucky in that aspect but now that it's you know that things are sort of weird in television um you know I have a couple of um scripts that I've written that I'm you know a couple of TV scripts and then um I'm working on a movie now uh it's been a very long time since I've written a movie script and so I'm kind of slogging through it but um like by virtue of these other little Parts I've had in sort of Indie movies I now I know like well I could call this guy and ask him to read the script and so there's been more of an imp impetus to like yeah you should probably you know this is a good idea you should probably just get your act together and write it so get it out that's what try do now yeah exactly like this would be like you know this would be a great thing it would be very easy and cheap to shoot like these guys they do great work like you see you know it's amazing what um because I've been been on like indie film sets like my whole life here in there yep man it used to be really hard and it's still hard but like so much just the technology of it has um like I time frames and simplified things yeah for sure and I saw a screening the other night of a um a movie that I had a little bit par in and I was like I can't believe how good this looks like it was everybody like when we were shooting it was like a dozen people maybe yeah and it was like this looks just like any other Hollywood film like there's no like it's no more like grainy shaky camera like soft focus you know like the sort of old school Indie um you know the Robert Rodriguez days or Kevin the early Kevin Smith days like y these people are making like you know feature like Hollywood feature quality films and so that's kind of like I'm like maybe I should maybe I should try and do that like I've always Lov TV's always been my favorite but um that kind of working on these sets kind of open my eyes a little bit like maybe there's something to something there too but I also have a uh a sitcom pilot that was a germ of an idea that was from Late Show yeah because I was the um I yeah at the time when I started there doing petrix I was the only male in the talent Department oh no kidding so yeah and so I at the time I I remember thinking like Ah that's fun a bit of an inverted Dynamic from yep like ah that'd make a good TV show and then like the thing I always say is like unfortunately like they were all too good to me and so I didn't really have any fodder for like there was no conflict like everybody treated me too well so I didn't have anything to write about and so I was like all right I guess I have to sort of fictionalize like this is gonna be a guy who works on a TV show for all women and they torture him and that's abely oh it's fantastic nobody wants to see a show about somebody who's like grateful for getting an opportunity and who is like nurtured respected and uh not that funny um so you know what's the title of the of the project so far what's the title uh that one's that that one's called our turn rurn oh I like it yeah the idea is that it's sort of like a show like The View um and uh they are uh um the premises that they're uh taken over by like sort of a you know Global Mega Corporation and that's run by a right- Winger who now wants to force a mail onto the show to prove a point about uh reverse discrimination and so the the guy the guy doesn't want to be on the show The People the women that run the show don't want him there um and they both but they're both it's out of their control because there's this sort of you know uh um a looming uh uh polit someone with a political AE to grind that is yeah so I was gonna say is that also I assume that there's some sort of a uh a rivalry between the the stars of the show and the network as well similar to like is there that tension they're trying to tell them to say things they don't want to say yeah pry much as well right right exactly they're sort of yeah the the the star and executive producer of the show is you know like has earned you know she's earned her place to do whatever she wants and yet because of this you know um corporate consolidation now she's not in control of her own show now she's working for GE there it is yeah pretty much exactly she's gonna go try I maybe I'll put a scene where she brings him a fruit basket and funny that would be great um I I'm so glad that you get to still um Flex the creative muscle and and and and you found such a uh a neat path and I certainly want to um you know keep keep in touch and whatnot did you know I gotta say this before we finish did you know Nick prer did you ever know Nick prer you know what I know the name I don't think okay so I'm gonna give you a gift because um Nick was uh was was on the show was a researcher um and for a few years um and and and he has since then gone on with his partner Joe his comedy partner Joe to to create the found footage Festival um oh great oh maybe that's where I know him from I know that's probably where you know him from and so he was a letterman guy now you talk about these these lost Andy calman ask type characters Nick is one he's one of the best follows on social media you'll ever get but also he and Joe were features in in in a documentary called Cho and steel uh because they would take the found footage Festival on the Road and they would go and do all these morning no news shows and it would get fairly monotonous but then they kind of found a hole where it's like wait a second we can get ourselves booked on these news shows and they would do it as pranks um they uh yoyo man they are the guys who made the yo-yo man they're the guys oh they were involed he came he came he was they booked him they booked him and and and and did all that so so that's crazy yeah yeah you want to watch chop and steel for sure okay Nick did appear on our show a few episodes back but um I mean he will go and he creates these fake um magazines magazine covers and he puts them puts these magazines in Waiting rooms in New York and he does he does the most amazing things and he what he and Joe are doing with the found footage Festival but yeah you the the spirit of Andy Kaufman is alive and well from those of us who were raised on Letterman and the Antics on Letterman and Nick is a a shining shining example of that I'm I'll connect I'll definitely yeah absolutely tough to do that now with people everyone's so so cynical and Savvy and uh if you get do it now you're really doing something and and and they like to the point where and I mean shop and steel everyone should watch shop and steel um to the point where they ended up on AGT and and and there's a like like like it got really big they got sued by gray media because of the things like this is like it is a phenomenal story it it's it's fantastic yeah what he and Joe have done I love it um Ben I have thank you so much for being so generous with your time here today uh this has been a lot of fun I we've been talking about the idea of getting uh an intern reunion and kind of doing The Brady Bunch Zoom screen and having a whole bunch of the interns I mean because I know there's still the chats that are there there's the Facebook group things there are there's a bunch of you that are still in connection with each other um I certainly want to help facilitate that we've got a few uh ideas of of multi- guest episodes coming up and the interns one is certainly one that we want to do so I I assume we can count you in on that one yeah keep me in the loop for sure you know for anyone that hasn't had enough of me I can only imagine say no what's what's left to say really the good news is is I care not about what anybody says when it comes to that I these stories are are are epic um and and and really at the end of the day we're a celebration of the greatest body of broadcast work in history that of David Letterman and Company the company and this behind the-scenes stories with the company as far as I'm concerned are endless it is an absolute pleasure keeping this going uh I got to finish I got to finish finish the same way that uh because we didn't start with it and I'm just hoping that you have one we have one sponsor one sponsor only uh at the Letterman podcast and that is hellodd deli.com so Rupert may not own the deli anymore but he still owns hellodd deli.com the only place that you can get official H with David Letterman merchandise Dave gave him the license how cool was that lug I didn't know that that's great yeah there there you go love rert isn't okay so rert good friend of mine as well I just adore him very very very much he and may um any rert story us to kind of finish us off here as we uh every morning go in there for to get a bagel and uh um there was Guy well you probably maybe you know the guy uh do you know the name Brian TAA of of course we're gonna get him was in my intern class he's coming on oh Brian was in your intern class you're kidding oh you talk about a guy who ran with it I mean oh my gosh that's a nice little ceries put together for himself absolutely we go back and forth he is coming on the show he just don't know when he is coming on the show though I Can Only Imagine I mean like his life is yeah uh but I my the thing that I always remember at the time was that he was dead set on getting a sandwich named after himself in the deli and I think did am like uh I think rert I I think it eventually came to pass but I think rbert sort of put him through the pace as like he like nah that's not a good sandwich or like he was really like sort of I think messing with him a little bit like rert you know the sweetest guy and everything but probably having a little bit of fun with Brian like who has an wanted to make the sandwich board even as an intern amazing like the Dave the Paul schaer the Brian Tia my favorite uh thing about R and you know like and I think rubert ultimately obliged him because that because he's rubert it did happen it was I believe he made the final I believe teda might have still been on the final menu board or I've got I've got pictures of the menu board with his with his sandwich on he might have been on the final one um I think he was down to things like I where it was like I would never eat this but was he like I'm getting off I'm getting on that board I don't care what I have to do you know I was like you know what I admire that that's an admirable goal good for you that's what kellison kellison said the greatest uh career in achievement in his career was was getting a sandwich named after I'm telling you yeah oh no those bragging rights um the night at the reunion there were there were they were measuring contests people talking about that and and and um you know so one of the one of the long time executive producers she went up and said you never did like there was almost like a little bit of a you never did name a sandwich after me I asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and it was just yeah that was a just hand them out that's for sure yeah that was just a fun little part of the culture of the folks who worked uh at Late Show Ben thank you so much for your time I really really appreciate this I'm gonna do a real quick outro and we'll say our goodbye privately if that's all right you got it all right so this so much oh thank you so much man I really appreciate you coming on here that's why we oh good I'm so glad uh this is why we do the show it's these it's these little stories these behind the curtain around the corner under the stair stories that uh that we don't necessarily hear all the time but those of us who are enthusiasts of what we consider to be the greatest body of broadcast work in history that of David Letterman and Company um it just it it turns a little bit of black and white into a little bit of color and that's what I hope we did during this uh episode of the Letterman podcast um again go to hellodd deli.com get yourself some Letterman swag this has another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum coincidentally I am Mike Chisum thank you and good night over coat and Underpants