Mark Malkoff Loves Johnny Carson, So Did Everyone Else, So He Wrote A Book About It

Hey, this is Gabe Abson and you're watching the Letterman podcast.

Welcome once again to the Letterman podcast. My name is Mike Chisum. Okay, we've got a Friends of the Show episode coming up right now and it's a little bit set up halfhazardly. I'm seeing that now. There we go. Adjusting the desk and we are ready to go. We've got three friends in the waiting room and one special guest about to show up. We're going to talk a little bit about um well, all things late night. It's fun to talk with uh with our friends of the show and we're going to bring them in right now. The first one that we're going to bring in right now is the very first guest of the Letterman podcast. You love him. You love them. You like them. You love them. You can't live without him. Darren Cox. There he is right there. Welcome, my friend.

Hi.

Hi. How you doing, man?

I'm Beachy. It's been a long time since we've done this.

Oh, it's been far too long. Um, our second guest coming in right now is uh the official historian of Warren Zevon and of course good friend of the show Adam. Adam is here. Uh, he is entering right now I believe. There he is right there. Adam, welcome to the show.

Thank you sir. Um, our third guest is uh she is a podcaster in her own right and I'm not sure if it's uh, you know, against her will or not, but it certainly is coming right out from her heart. She is a TV historian and she has latched on to our little community and we couldn't be happier to have Allison Lip uh, who is joining us right now. There is guest number three, friend of the show. Allison Lips is here. Welcome Allison.

Hello. Ah, there we go. And now I'm going to um tell our very special guest that uh he can join anytime.

And I told him that I said to come in a little bit late because it might build him up a little bit. Do we have any predictions as to who the special guest might be?

Did you get Jed who wrote the article himself?

I did not. Oh, and Allison, it's like uh you know how to build something. We are going to be talking about the springboard off of our discussion today is uh a story that was on late nighter.com uh that Jed Rosenfig wrote. Yes, I always want to say it like it's German, like Rosenvag. That's how I want to say it, but that's that's I believe that's how it's supposed to be. But Jed wrote an article talking about Letterman. Uh my next guest is returning on Netflix. Here are some of our dream guests. That is what kind of spawned the idea of this discussion. So Jed is a very good guest, but no, it is not Jed. It is not Jed today. Any other guests guesses about who the guest might be?

Bruce Springsteen.

Wasn't that just lovely? Like go back and watch that clip

of the last late night and you watch Dave, how excited Dave is. Um, and and then how the audience just went ballistic knowing that Bruce Springsteen is going to is going to finish and sign off late night with David Letterman. That was such a good moment. I love that.

I love how he's like, "We've had pretty much every guest on this show we've ever wanted except for one

until tonight."

Yep.

And I was like, "Who could it possibly be?" And wow, did he blow the roof off the dump.

He blew They did blow the roof. And he did the uh the when Bruce is on the piano

um you know on top of the piano and Paul's playing that keyboard part like I mean that's the thing I love about that that song has an essential keyboard part to it

and and Paul played it so well and and whatever setting he used for it and then seeing Bruce above him you know dancing and it was just and playing guitar it was such a wonderful wonderful moment in the history of uh of television. I had known I would have stood on the piano years ago.

Adam, how you doing?

I'm doing well, thank you.

Can you tell us anything about Warren going into the Hall of Fame that we're allowed to talk about? Uh any any plans for the ceremony itself or what's going to be happening yet or are we still Mum's the word?

Mum is still the word on that. So,

yep. The um induction is Sunday, November 8th at the Peacock Theater in Los Angeles and we'll be streaming on Disney Plus uh live, I believe. And um there will also be some sort of edited thing on ABC. So,

streaming live. That's good. That's good news.

Yeah, it is good news. Um it's I always think the Hall of Fame shows are pretty fun. They always have a good mix of guests, but um unfortunately I don't have any information on who's performing or inducting or anything of that nature that I can share at the moment.

Up here in Canada, I uh I I try and catch it every year, but we always get it like delayed like it's it's out two weeks later or even sometimes a month later and it's on um the same carrier like I don't know if it's actually HBO itself, but it's on the same carrier that carries HBO up here. So um I love the idea that we'll be able to watch it live. This week I just hung out with a band uh a Canadian band uh called called Odds or the Odds depending on your persuasion. And um really cool story back in the in the in the early 90s um you know this this this Canadian band uh who worshiped people like Warren Zevon, including Warren himself, uh wrote this funny, irreverent uh not quite comedy music, but also did not take itself too seriously. Really, really good stuff. and Warren discovered them, took a liking to them, and ended up taking them on the road with him. Uh they backed him a few times. He performed on one of their uh the album Bed Bugs, which is my in my opinion their their best album. He performed on that and uh um talking to the lead singer this week, it was really cool. He had a lot of really awesome things to say about Warren. I actually want to have him on the show here and I want to connect him and Jordan, too, cuz I I think they would be very kindred. Um yeah. Anyway, it was that was that was a cool moment this week. I'm saying

I was rewatching Oh, sorry. No, go ahead.

I was re-watching I believe it was Longmire, the TV series Longmire, which is on Netflix. And if you haven't watched Longmire, it's one of the greatest uh TV shows. It's like a modern-day police drama set in the West. And anyway, they uh included Warren's cover of Back in the High Life. Oh, that's such a good song.

And I forgot how great Warren did it. It's like he just completely made that song his own

and fantastic. I rewound it and and watched it just to hear that again. I don't have that on I know it's readily available on the Spotify and you know you can listen to it on YouTube and all that stuff but it was just really something else and they the combination of that song and what was going on on the TV show really meshed very well. I miss Warren I'm uh I don't know that I have that in my Apple Music and I'm looking for the version of it right now to There it is right there and we are adding that one to library. Very very well done. Uh Allison, who was your recent most recent guest on uh Greetings from the Idiot Box?

Adam.

It's Adam. Was it Adam?

Adam Nv.

Adam Nidf was your latest guest. That's fantastic. He's a friend of the show. We could bring him on here, but uh that was a terrible segue into the idea that we're now going to bring our special guest on. Nobody guessed who it is, but here we go. Oh my gosh. Oh,

the man, the myth, the legend himself.

Yes,

Mark Maloff is here. How happy are you guys?

Now I'm glad I'm here. This is

Pennsylvania boy. Good to see you.

No to to Adam and to Allison, but holy crap, I've got a thousand questions for Mark Mal.

Oh goodness. Let's do it. I um I've been in this room for four years writing uh my book that's coming out and there's heavily Dave Letterman is heavily um new stuff in the book um featured. So yeah, I haven't really talked to many people. I talked to Mike a little bit. He's helping me get my social skills back. So

yeah.

Uh okay. So we're going to we're going to help you with this as much as we possibly can to launch this thing and and and talk about it as much as we possibly can. People can pre-order the book already, right? First off, what's the book called? And can people pre-order now?

Yeah, it's um it's called Love Johnny Carson, and it's being published by Dutton Books, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. And the Love Johnny Carson title, um it came be and it's coming out October 21st, 2 days before what would be Johnny's 100th birthday. and it really does help me a lot with algorithms and just press um if people do pre-order the book it would um mean a lot to me but I was going to say um yeah that title I just talked to 400 people plus people and they so many of them would say I love Johnny Carson and it was I was just like shocked how many people that I talked to um cuz I didn't I just didn't really know much about him other than the some of the negative books maybe and it was just a completely different man from me talking to all these people and people that worked with him, people that were friends, and I'm like, dang, he's completely portrayed different to the people I've talked to.

So, um, yeah, and then we do a deep dive into Dave Letterman and Leno and just all this other stuff that's never been reported. So, um, definitely the guest, the the Tonight Show for the 30 years, Johnny's retirement, and just a lot of stuff, um, excited about. So,

yeah, this is fantastic. I mean, like really up to this point, the definitive book when it you talk about the moments that that you're just speaking about here, the Carson when when when Carson uh you know, left the stage for the last time uh was was is of course Bill Carter's book who you is a friend of yours and and I mean you guys are are cohorts at late nighter.com, but the idea that another book is going to come out and from this perspective uh with this much time, you know, behind us having known now what happened with late night, how it did expand and it's now we're watching it contract again and and all of that. I'm so excited and the fact that it's you, Mark.

I mean, and all of us here and I'll introduce you to all because all three of the people that are here right now and many others who listen to or watch our show or even tolerate our show are just you are like up on this pedestal and the idea that you get to write a book about Johnny

and and and get to have your say and collect all of this amazing information

um and gather it and and then present it to us. Uh it it's so great, Mark. I cannot tell you how happy I am for you to be doing. I

felt for four for the years just complete fear that I am hoping or that I do this justice. David Ritz I'm is um who did Paul Schaefer's book and Don Rickles and all this that it's um did the book with me. So it's by Mark Malov with David Ritz and having you know I'd never done a book Johnny in the Tonight Show just seemed such a heavy subject with just I felt the responsibility just to to uh really get this right and having somebody that's been through 65 books and that you know would sat down with Don Rickle sat down with um with Schaefer um you know this was very different. David had never done anything like this before. I didn't know him. I just reached out to to five or six authors and that I liked and I was just like I said I have all this information about Carson and David Ritz was like what do you how do you see the book? I'm like I have no idea. I don't I just I had the information. I don't I don't really know. We just um really hit it off. I didn't no expectations.

And then yeah, we got a publishing deal which was really nice. And then um two a couple of really nice things happened. One is um I was able to use from the PBS American Masters from Johnny Carson 2012 which Dave Letterman participated in. I was able to use um transcripts from stuff that wasn't like raw like stuff that has never been broadcast that was not broadcast. I mean he t spoke to these people sometimes for like you know an hour or two and only you know maybe a minute or two got in. So, I had that and then Jim McCauley who was the talent coordinator um of the Tonight Show for um comedy. Uh he wrote an unpublished manuscript and his um son James let me use that. And there's crazy stuff in there like like nothing scandalous but stuff like I'm just like jaw my jaw was dropping when he was talking about Dave's debut and how many times he did audition for the show and didn't get it.

like I had no idea and just um the drama of the g of him guest hosting too. I had no idea and just to hear this perspective from Jim who was there. I mean it was um pretty incredible just to um after the podcast just to um work on this book because like I'd say like at least like 60 70% is new stuff that was I didn't do on the podcast. So

wow. Um, yeah, may maybe it's a little bit more like 50%, but like it's definitely mostly uh a good chunk is new stuff. So, I just Yeah, I just went to town and hopefully people will like it.

This is really cool. Like, like that was actually going to be one of my questions. Um, and we're going to do an episode, by the way, after the book has come out and we've consumed it. We're going to do an episode then. So, so like there's going to be lots of love

uh from this program uh for for for the book as it comes out and and and just enjoying the process with you. Like this is great. you know that that feeling of that anticipation that you have right now knowing this thing is coming out. It's great to kind of share that with you right now because it's gonna be awesome. There's

I hope I'm really nervous. I just feel feel like again it's a responsibility and just to try to I mean I feel I do feel like I got everything right. Like I try to triple check for like four times. people would come up like people would sometimes tell me outrage like outrageous things or not outrageous things but like things that I was like I have to verify this and I in some cases if I would be able to get through to sources and I'm like okay this this didn't happen or this did happen and

so it's a lot of that but um yeah we'll see what happens but thank you for your kind words and yeah October 21st that's like in two months or so. Yeah, it's it's gonna come real fast.

Yeah.

Um and and also you're the host of Inside Late Nightight on late nighter.com. It's it's one of the best podcasts out there.

Oh, thanks. Yeah, we've been Yeah, we have a new season coming out in late September. So, we're on hiatus now, but I've been recording episodes. So, um yeah, we um have some good stuff. I've been um yeah some really good guests but like um I love talking to the late the Letterman like people like like Spike Ferristen in here in the stories and

y

um definitely like all the late night shows but there's something like a kinship of when I'm talking to uh the some of the Letterman people I think for sure. So

it's the family. It's the family. Oh by the way we're going to do a shout out. Uh Daniel Flity who was a cameraman for CBS for decades just retired. Uh I I I my note to him was I don't think you could have timed it anymore. Perfect. And um he uh so give a quick shout out to him and the f from the Letterman family, of course. Um I I'm so excited about this. Mark, I'm going to introduce you to our to our panel here because I don't know that you've met all of them or not.

I know who all of you are. So yeah, I may I'll take the Yeah.

Darren Cox hosts the Irritable Dad Syndrome podcast and uh Gigantic was our very first guest on the Letterman podcast. Um, Adam, the official Warren Zevon historian and uh and friend, good friend as well. Um, Allison Lips, uh, TV historian, student of David B and Uh, she loves when I make sure I make that distinction, but host of Greetings from the Idiot Box. Um, and I've just always said this, I absolutely love that we've got a gal uh, who is much our junior who is interested in this stuff still and is is is carrying the torch that we will hopefully pass to her one day. I absolutely love that you exist, Allison, and uh all of whom are we're all big fans of yours.

I'm not currently carrying the torch.

Well, maybe she'll rip it from our hands, but you know, we all want a chance to run around the arena um with this thing. And

oh, I I should mention I forgot to mention also I Maril Marco and I um Meil helped me out on the book a bunch. I mean, like we we went back and forth and um really helped me with clarity on some things. So, she's featured in the book as well from a Letterman standpoint and um I used some stuff from Rob Bernett um him talking stories and stuff. Um so, yeah, there's definitely um really good and like um Jim McCaulay wrote about Buddy Mora, who is Dave's guy and um we talk about uh manager, we talk about about how what Buddy um what they were kind of like doing behind the scenes to push Dave. So, yeah.

Wow, that's fantastic. And by the way, any of the panel, if you all want to jump in and talk to Mark, because I know you all, you've all kind of said to me privately, hey, I'd love to talk to Mark one day. I'm so honored to talk to any of you. I again, I I'm been in my New York City apartment for 4 years, like barely like um socializing other than my wife and my cats. And like Christine's been amazing. I think she's um yeah, excited for me to get back in out into the public a little bit. Um

well, I absolutely have a question and that's How do you know when you have done enough research? Cuz in my mind, I see you at your table and you're looking at your thousands of blue uh post-it notes and you're like,

"Okay, that's everything. I found everything."

True.

I've never and all the episodes that I've listened to of both the Carson podcast and your late nighter, I mean, you've stumped people before. I've heard people ask,

"How did you know that?" I mean, when do you know when it's too much or you've got enough research cuz you rather have too much and not use it? Like I've done that with certain people that I panicked where I'm like I don't know if I have enough and then like some of the stuff like I know is a my a stuff that I definitely want to bring up and then other stuff is like we have run out of stuff to talk about. But I would like I just I go to so many different sources to try to get as much as I can. Like I remember like especially when the Carson podcast like people would be like how do you know this and I would just go unconventional methods.

go to like for example like eBay and put the person's name in and you see all these things that they did in their theater career and like like off Broadway or Broadway or like them like when they were touring um with music around and like people just like couldn't believe and it was just like I I just I don't know like these people have been interviewed so many times and I just I try my hardest not to ask the same cookie cutter questions. It's not where did you go to college? I can find that out. It's like when you went to Penn State and you majored in this in this year and how did that lead to and then something. So I just feel like when I when I do that and it just happened the other day I can just see it in their eyes and then they they are like okay this he there's just like this connection and they just open up um a lot of times with me. I try I that's what I try to do.

But um yeah, sometimes like Frank Santa and the Gilbert podcast I think like he was doing like seven eight hours of research on every guest and like believe it or not was doing more than I was. But um I just you know I the I just there's definitely um certain people I probably have did a little bit too much. That's why like certain guests added to do like two or three episodes. But um yeah, that's Thank you for even asking about the research and stuff. I mean, I just it's it's definitely something I try to go back as early as I can with what they've done and like try to just have a grasp and try to go in maybe different directions in their interviews that they've never done hopefully.

Yeah. I think it was Barry Gibb who you stumped and I can't remember the question.

Yeah.

You asked him something and and he just stopped for a second. He's like you can hear him like

man. Yeah. I I I don't normally I try to stay away from stuff, but like the BG fans were so pissed at me that I didn't ask about certain things with Barry Gibb or like they they just were not happy with my Barry Gibb interview. I come from a different point of view cuz it's late night and Carson and stuff and um I was saying yeah I think I mispronounced some stuff as well but um yeah he he was really nice like I was shocked. He said yeah. Like if I just said it was like a music podcast, I don't think he would have done it. But it was like they had tennis and it was Johnny Carson and I just I was able to get to his person and I was like shocked he said yes. He couldn't have been nicer. So yeah.

Cool.

Yeah.

Isn't the awkward downtime of multiple guests who are being polite to each other a lovely feeling? I just adore that. the tension of that.

Well, Darren also had a much better question than I did because Mike, you know me well enough to know where my priorities were after Mark had just mentioned something.

Yes, but please go and regail us and let us know cuz I'm not sure that I do know.

You mentioned your cats and I'm like, what are your cats names?

Oh my goodness. We we have Boo like for Boo Rley from Mockingbird.

Okay,

that was my contribution and Bud just passed away. That was Bud Court. Um,

I'm sorry.

Herald and Ma cuz we like Harold and Ma. And then, um,

we have a few more that like we rest Christine McRes rescue and a couple of them. We had, um, weren't able to get homes cuz some of them have were like special needs a little bit here and there, but um, yeah, those are the the main ones. Um, she like what else do we have? We have Belle, she named um, but yeah, my my those are my contributions, but yeah, we like the cats. I love your Co Bear photo, by the way. You know, I worked at that show for the Co Bear report. I see Stephen in character that I remember that photo very well for three years and eight months. Who's

who's counting? But um Co Bear when he used to go on Dave's show cuz he knew I had a day job at at Dave and like um would tell me what they would talk about sometimes like um between commercials and be like, "Can I tell me um just like things with his appearance?" But he would Cole Bear would be like almost like like I like how Letterman would be on Carson just like completely in awe. I thought that was

really really cool. Um but yeah, he loved going on Dave's show. He was so good at it. You know,

Dave released uh the video. I I uh uh with with It was so funny because I asked um I asked Walter I said, "Is there going to be a reaction? Is there going to be a reaction that very same day uh the the reaction video of on the Barbara Gain show?" the Barbara G. Oh, by the way, shout out to the Barbara Gain show uh came out and and and Letterman when talking about CBS and what they're doing and their tactics right now and what the conjecture that was being thrown out there, one of the things that he talked about was the idea that uh that we're all going to have to go in and we're all going to have to go kiss the ring. I just loved Dave's appearance on the Late Show with Steven Colbear. The idea that he is going to come on there again uh before Steven leaves is is is a beautiful one. It's a historic one. And it's one of those things that people like us, we live for the moments like that, those those those moments. Um, but we're also talking about the idea of my next guest. Do you think this uh I call it circus time that's happening right now. Do you think it warrants

What's that?

Not Adam. I'm sorry. Mike.

Yes.

You were mentioning Dave would is going to come back on the Late Show.

Yes.

With Stephen Cobear. And all I could think about was when Dave came on Johnny Carson and Johnny Carson's like, "So, how pissed are you?"

Yeah. Famous like Dave should just go on Coar and be like, "So, how pissed are you?"

Oh, wow. That would be a great call back. Oh, man. I love that. That's

like And that's one of my favorite Letterman appearances um on Carson was just the energy that it was so the electric energy of it was just absolutely amazing. And even even uh two or three days before Johnny signed off, Dave came on again and and and that was that was a phenomenal and you know Carson still pissed. Are you like

it was great. Yeah, he was making fun of Clint Eastwood making fun and then Eastwood shot back. But that was Yeah. Would

it kill you to wear a tie?

Yes. And

a barbecue,

you know. And then at least I'm not wearing my gym socks or something.

Yeah, that was wonderful.

That was wonderful. So, so do you think uh do you think this might because Dave is he's done such a good job of being as arms length as humanly possible from clearly all of these guys uh and gals for that matter. He just guest guested on Busy Phillips's show. Um you know want Dave to be you know rope back into this into this circus again. Um and he's done such a good job of kind of keeping at arms length but still every once in a while giving us little uh little tidbits of it. You know his appearance on Strikeforce 5 and some of these other things. The idea of um Co Bear actually getting a full spot on My Next Guest I think is pretty fascinating. I wonder if that's a trigger that they might pull.

I think it would be great um television. I definitely were thinking of some people that I could maybe see uh Dave um going for. I love the fact he gets certain people that just don't really are very pre would say no to to to most other people like that and it's still like um he's he's does such a good job I think of getting people um open and maybe in a different light. Yeah. But I think Colbear would be amazing. And I could see them going back to Charleston where Steven's from or Chicago maybe where he spent so much time.

Yeah,

I would love that one. Um, let's look at the list. So, by the way, isn't Jed such a great guy, Mark? I mean, I mean, you know what else are we going to say? I'm kind of painting you into a corner with it, but I'm just I just I adore this guy. I adore this guy. Like,

what? Not so much,

man.

Throws me the wrong way. Really? The guy's an ass. Come on.

Oh my goodness. I disagree.

No, he's not going to.

And which one of you are getting paid by him?

Certainly not me.

See, Allison's used to this because the last two of the three times I've been on her show, I've broken her podcast. So, I'm hoping I don't break this one.

Never. No.

Don't sell yourself short. It was all three times.

Okay. Okay. Um uh the the fact that late nighter exists um is is is just absolutely like I mean I think back to my heyday of the internet and and some of the different sites like I would go to IGN remember IGN I'd go to the IGN sites all the time that had to do with the fact that we have one now um and it's so well curated in the people Mark you you included this uh who are involved in in in what populates the content of this thing. It's such a great thing. And Jed,

I just really appreciate the fact that, you know, he's he's given uh a place for these these people, the Bill Carters and and and everybody else down from that. I I kind of, you know, put him up at the on the pedestal. Uh I just love that I can go to this thing every day and there's always fresh content. There's always good stuff. Jed himself is writing lots of stuff. Wants to make sure that there's lots of um you know, interesting things on this site. And we've never had in the last probably 10 years a time where there has been more interesting things about late night that are coming out from all of the different franchises, especially watching again if it is if we're watching the uh implosion of this thing that we love so much, this this genre we love so much, I'm really glad late nighter exists to cover it. Um and and and this article he just came out with with the idea of dream guests for my next guest. Uh you know, I I love that. That's like that's like the nerd, you know, what if what if Hulk fought f thought Superman? What would happen? You know, this is this is kind of that sort along that vein a little bit. Um

they brought up some some names from the past. Obviously, the idea of having like say a Michael Keaton on there.

Michael Keaton was always always a great guest. You could always tell the camaraderie that they shared uh from the comedy store.

Any of you guys had encounters Mark? Did you ever meet Michael Keaton in your in your uh walk?

No. Got to go to Mr. Rogers, but that was after he was um way after he was gone, but I had never um never had anything to do with him, but he was always great. Like I I would hear stories about, you know, when he was a back in the day when he was a standup, people would mention him, but um yeah, never. I I tried to I asked him um through his publicist a bunch of times to he went on Carson, I think, like six times or something. Was always good, but yeah, he was wonderful with Dave, but I think he'd be one fabulous on on his show. Was he did he uh did he perform like was he one of the comedy store kind of regulars that would show up and perform on on Tonight uh back then or uh was he was he stand up more um

he didn't do stand up on Carson show he was movie by then I think like he was like already um like pretty established he moved on from the Mary Tyler Moore variety show it wasn't

his first appearance on Carson for Mr. Mom, I'm

It sounds about right. I mean, I That sounds about right. So, yeah,

his final appearance on Letterman was amazing and it showed just how much confidence he has. It It was like a walk in the park. He came in, he had his cell phone with him, and he was showing Dave pictures.

Yeah.

It was an incredible, easygoing interview, and he just wanted an hour more of it. It was incredible.

Yeah. Well, just want an hour more of it. And that's, you know, that that calls back to exactly what Jed's point is in the article here. you know, the idea of these two guys um like that's the thing about that that that class at the comedy store like some of them went on to some unbelievable accolades and and adventures but unique like I look at a guy like Tim Tomson um you know and again he might not be you know the the the A-lister that we that people think of right away uh there are certainly others that that can do that but unique um you know you you think about Tom Drees you know Tom Drees again like Paul Barrett at Frank Sinatra 's funeral and and the guy probably the the guy on the planet right now that carries on this legacy of the biggest person in show business in all of show business for decades, Frank Sinatra. Um, you know, and these are all guys, you know, Michael Keaton, acclaimed acclaimed actor and and and has this um unbelievable uh career uh but unique like very very very um just special. And all of these people were together on this stage.

Letterman, of course, you know, the air parent to Carson. Um, you know, got to work, you know, with his hero and and and they're all, you know, and Leno of two, you know, famous, infamous, whatever you want to call it. Leno there, of course, as as well. That class from the comedy store just unbelievable in what many of them have moved on to. Can you imagine being there back in the day and seeing Robin Williams po on the same night as Richard Prior, probably on the same night as as Letterman and I would have loved to have gone back and watched them guys working them guys th those guys English Darren speak it working out bits because what we've seen is them doing established pieces you know but you'd love to watch them do you know trying out something and then you try it out again and then you work on it a third time, a fourth time to get it just right. That would have been amazing.

Yeah, I would have loved to have seen Dave Mc at the comedy store and has covered in the book, but he just did. They just did not the Titro didn't f find he had enough um material to to warrant him to do standup that was strong enough and it just took him a little bit longer and stuff but he was known as this really fast MC and they knew he was funny but um to go and um and uh do your f a strong five or six minutes they had some apprehension. It took a lot longer than I thought. It took a couple it took took like I think he was rejected three times or two or three times and then Buddy Moira insisted

on automatic panel you're not getting Letterman because they wanted him then finally in um

that took a little time but they got Johnny to agree.

It took Steve Martin a long time too didn't he to get on there.

Yeah. Bob Shane and I cover that was a talent coordinator. Um Fred Dordova like famously passed on Steve Martin on Martin Maul and so many people and it was um but Bob Shane a lot of times the talent coordinators if they couldn't get past Fred Dortiva or Peter they would have like these like every four months they could sit down with Carson and they could they could pitch to Johnny him themselves and um he showed him a kinoscope of Steve Martin from or not a kinoscope a videotape of like him on on Steve Allen and uh Carter said, "Let's give the kid a chance." And that's how Steve Martin got booked. But um yeah, some of those bookings were not easy. Like it just

Howard Brook was number said it took him It took him 12 times of being on Car I think it's 12 12 times on Carson before someone said, "Weren't you on the Tonight Show last night?" And he says, "Yes." And and after all that time, I became an overnight sensation.

Sounds about right.

Yeah. I recently read Comedy on the Edge, which is about the comedy store and what was going on in the 70s. And it mentions that everyone's goal was to get on Carson.

Mhm.

And there were a few people who got on Carson who then didn't have momentum to keep going because they used their best five minutes and it's like, "Oh, everyone wants to see me now, but they don't want to see those five minutes."

Yeah.

Right. Everyone needed to have like like Billy Crystal was smart. Like certain people would go in with like they'd have four prepared sets when they when they debuted, but like someone like David Se who was on my Carson podcast just he told me he's like I should have listened to Seinfeld and just kept writing more and ran out of material. I mean it's tough. It got Leno in trouble at Carson show because you know in I think it was like you know Jay had a really strong debut and then they had him back almost immediately and he just ran out of material and he it showed eventually and then Carson's like we're not ever having this guy on ever again and um he had then Jay had a you know went over to D on Dave's show famously and just was like one of the best guests ever and that's how um finally in ' 86 Carson was like okay let's bring him back and Jay was redot by then. But um yeah, Carson once he said, "I never want this person on the show again." It was almost rare that he changed his mind, but Jay definitely I mean was just like lightning hot going on Dave's show. So

isn't that interesting? One of the things that we were talking about like

um you know the idea of Dave hosting at the comedy store that's what we all kind of think about because the host you know okay yeah they might come up and do their first two or three minutes to kind of warm the crowd up and see what what what's going on out there a little bit. Um and and and and by the way that my to me is fascinating as well. The idea that, you know, Eddie Brill used to do that obviously, uh, you know, for for for for Late Show and and the idea that David Letterman is the guy that goes out and is looking at what kind of a crowd do we have here today and kind of playing with them a little bit and all of us, you know, hindsight, of course, knowing that that's one of Dave's strengths is his off-the cuff type type response. Then he goes maybe does two or three minutes and then he gets to respond to every comic as they after they finish off and gets to you know throw his two cents in. To me that's the price of admission right there. Leno coming over to Letterman after this time. He doesn't have this material, which again with hindsight, you look back and you go, "Oh my god, the idea that Jay Leno doesn't have enough material knowing now what we know about him and how much of a workhorse he is."

And what is it that kind of brings him back? And it's the idea that he and Dave can kind of go off the cuff on panel and that's the thing that gives him the juice to kind of come back to it. I just I I dig that symmetry. I

I did just want to mention Jake did had material. It just was not right for the Tonight Show.

Yes.

He could go in the clubs and do stuff, but like he just didn't it wasn't curse and stuff. I'm sorry, Allison. Um, please continue. Sorry to jump in. I just want to interject that.

Yeah. Well, part of that was part I'm pretty sure Jay has gone on record and said like he hasn't done a standup special because once you do that you can't use those jokes because everyone has already heard those. The other to your point Mark I believe I saw a set early Jay Leno where I was surprised at how blue he was working which wouldn't have flown on the Tonight Show. Yeah, I mean it really depends on who the comic was and if they could get away with it. I mean Jim McCauley was was very um for the when they were starting out at least with on people sets very controlling and people there are a bunch of names in the book that people that got banned from the show that were told not to do certain jokes um that were off color. I mean, Letterman Letterman definitely there were people that went on that did stuff that were not asked back just because he thought that they you know, you're inviting somebody into their home essentially.

That's how they look at it, Dave. And then just like say certain things like you can't you would never say that in somebody's home. So, there were a few that that happened a couple times, but that's interesting. Yeah, the Jay stuff that that you thought I'm I'm sure it is. is I haven't gone back and looked at Jay's um stuff but um Blue but yeah he has definitely has you can see it's interesting his style organically changing over those years.

It wasn't outrageous but I'm like oh this is not the Jay Leno I know. Yeah, it is interesting like like Chappelle's debut on Dave I think is one of those those examples where I was just like you know somebody like Jeffrey Ross in 95 absolutely crushed and let Chappelle did okay. I thought he did all right. I mean I definitely get like in like when he um if you look at his from there and like maybe a bunch of years later it's like night and day to me I think with his debut. Richard Lewis suffered greatly on his Tonight Show debut. He told me he never even watched. I mean, I don't think it's on YouTube, but it's it's definitely one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever seen if for a debuting comic. And he just said he wasn't ready. You know, he had been doing comedy, I think two years, maybe three years, and it was just

wow.

It was but it was but we talked in depth about it, but it was rough. Um, and he was able to after a couple more years um get back and he um did very very well. It's just, you know, it's tough for some people. Hm.

Yeah, Richard Lewis is one of those guys that I really um I I've got a whole bunch of people that I I I have uh playful uh loving envy uh with you, Mark, about some of the conversations and and experiences you've had. Richard Lewis is one of them. I I just um When was it that you spoke with him? You've spoken with him multiple times, haven't you?

No, it was only once. I think it was 22, maybe.

I I try to get it. It's like Richard Lewis told me he never got the messages. He had he had a publicist for a while and this nice I'm sure nice person not even going to them. And then um he was with um I think it's okay to say Jeff Abraham who's a great guy who wrote a comedy book and he's just like the nicest guy. And um he he got me Richard Lewis near the end of the Carson podcast and I was shocked but it was great to talk about Dave. I mean to him I mean I thought his Dave stuff was was always wonderful and um yeah he uh I think he's shined on that show for sure like and that's the thing I love like with with I always refer to um these guys I I refer to the Godfather and and and I refer to you know Johnny as M as um as as as as uh um Veto Veto. No just Yeah. Okay. And then M and then Michael is David

as is Letterman, right? And and and um you know to me

they're linked. They're forever linked. Like when you talk to you can talk to some of these people and they have a perfect link between the two uh franchises.

Um and I I I I love that there are some guests who who you know they transcend that. Richard Lewis is certainly one of them. Robin Williams is certainly one of them. um many of these people and I think that's that's uh indicative of of just how close these two franch how Dave wanted to be the guy that did take over and in many ways was the guy that took over despite the fact that the franchise wasn't his. It's just such a fascinating story looking back on all of it. Um one of the other people on the list here was Madonna. Now, I I'm a little bit fascinated with the idea of Dave talking to modern-day Madonna, mostly because I just want to see what she looks like. Uh, at the time of the recording, I don't know that I like like Yeah, the history the two have. Um, I don't know how I feel about that. How did you feel about the idea of Dave talking to Madonna for an hour?

It's interesting, but I don't think we would learn anything about Madonna.

Okay. I think it's just going to be an hour of those two playfully sniping at each other.

Mhm. Yeah, I saw that and I I was like, I don't know. I just don't think that's going to be exciting television. It's like Allison said, what are we going to learn about Madonna that we haven't already uh that we don't already know? And there's going to be people uh, you know, diehard Letterman fans who are going to, you know, go to revisit the episode where she dropped the fbomb 25 26 times or whatever.

And then, you know, after after that's all said and done, yeah, I don't I don't know. That's not she's not somebody who I would put on my list.

I don't think she's someone who would be open. That's the best thing about my next guest is he gets people to be really open. You don't expect Lizo was fantastic and I could care less about Lizo before that episode. Um, but he made me care about Lizo and um I'm not sure so sure that Madonna will let herself be open in terms of how she is as a parent and um I just don't see it. Yeah,

I think Madonna's still after all these years, I think she's still like shock value Madonna.

He is.

So, yeah. And I don't know that Dave's wanting to have shock value on his show. He likes to get people to like he had George Clooney on. He's had George Clooney on I don't know how many times,

but George and his parents, he, you know, you developed a a new appreciation for George after hearing him talk to his dad. It was pretty good. So, I don't know.

I feel the same way. I feel the same way about that one. I I uh the the Lizo is yours. Um Adam, mine is Billy Isish. Like like my wall when it comes to is really high at this point. Like the music that I had uh that that's part of my DNA growing up during my formative years. Um you know, my 20s when I was kind of in many ways trying to figure out myself and whatnot, that music has cemented itself into me. And for new music to do it, it takes a lot. Um, Billy is one of those ones where I saw what was going on and I could be like I was like, "Okay, this is the one that's, you know, captured the kids, that sort of a thing." After she was on My Next Guest, I did a bit of a deep dive and now she's part like she's she's over the fence. She's in my like she's one of those new artists that is there um that that I'm like, "Yep, I totally totally get it." And there have been artists along the the the way that have come along and done that. Um, but yeah, it took it took Dave's show and the understanding of her to do that. I also loved his I loved his Miley Cyrus episode. Like

yeah, he's good with some of the young I'd like him with Bo Burnham maybe.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, but he's he's good. He's he's extremely good at getting people that the different sides of them and making people Yeah. I would be like, I don't know why this would be interesting. And then you watch him with them and they're like, oh, wow. Yeah.

I'll tell you somebody I would love for him to have on the show because and he was never on the uh any of the early shows that he's hot right now and everybody loves him. It's uh Pat Sjack. I'm kidding.

Show us the mug, Allison. Show us the mug.

Okay. Nate Batsiate would be amazing on my guest.

He's a clean comic and he could talk all

he could talk absolutely about why he's pursued this avenue of comedy and he is my god he sells out stadiums right and left and he's hosting the Emmy Awards. Nate Parati would be a phenomenal guest on Letterman. I think the two of them would do well.

That's a good um Yeah.

Yeah. So, they have a uh before Allison shows the mug, um they have a phenomenal chemistry, and I know that because uh last year at the Netflix is a joke comedy festival, um two out of three of the nights I got a chance to see Dave with his special guest. Um and and the first night it was Nate Bargazi, and they didn't record it. And I mean, I I said to, you know, Dave's producer, I'm like, "Why aren't you recording it?" And and one of the things that was said was, "Well," he goes, "It's a different conversation when the cameras are on." And boy, is that true. And it was it was a phenomenal phenomenal um you know interaction between the two uh by far and I didn't see the Sarah Silverman one the second night but um it was really really good and and and and they showed clips of of uh material that Late Show rejected and he got on to Conan and Dave apologized for it and it was this really cool moment between the two of them and and yes he did talk about that. He talked about the idea of of the clean comedy. They spent probably 10 minutes of the of the interview about that.

It was a really really great um onstage uh you know version of my next guest that nobody got a chance to see except for the people in the room. And yeah, it would be a really good

uh just like when when when you know he had John Mulaney on showing John working on his next hour, you know. I I love that. I love that Dave still seems to have the fascination or the curiosity for, you know, uh, what's going on in standup and the process of standup and maybe how it's the same and how it's changed over the years. How he kind of plays around with that idea. Uh, the idea that he would be able to do that with Nate was is is a phenomenal phenomenal one. Um, Allison, show us the mug.

I also realized you all probably saw my shorts because I forgot I was wearing shorts.

Ah, no. It's okay. Darren,

it's summertime. Damn it.

Darren's not what?

Darren's not wearing pants.

I'm not wearing pants.

I don't think Darren ever wears pants.

I live in Ohio. There's no need.

Do they have pants in Ohio?

They do, but a lot of people bring them in from Kentucky.

No, you got to import them.

Show us the mug, Alison.

I'm wearing shorts.

Alison has a has a has a cool mug collection from a bunch of these shows. I actually have two Pet Ajac mugs.

I didn't know that.

So, the first one is your typical put it on a desk mug.

Oh, there we go.

Oh, nice. Isn't that great?

That's That's cool. And then your other one was definitely I don't know much about them, but this was definitely handed out to affiliates and other people in the industry based on what it says, which is follow a rising star to late night success. And I'm assuming, I haven't tried it, if you fill it with hot water or coffee or something, that the TV screen will reveal what's behind it, which says Pat Sjack on CBS.

There we go.

That's cool.

That worked out so well, too.

Okay, let me get my Hold on. I I'll get a couple of mugs. Did you talk amongst yourselves?

Oh, yeah. We'll talk amongst ourselves. The other another one. Oprah, we like the idea of Dave going for an hour with Oprah. I don't know. Like like for me, it's so funny with this list and and there's the pop culture and and the the process of hosting this show, some of them have gone away for me. Like Jay Leno was on here. I don't want to I don't really want to see it to be perfectly frank. Uh it's so funny how how how the levels of this uh change perspective to me. Dave and Oprah did their hour when Dave was on Oprah on her on her show. Like I don't I don't know how much new stuff we would get with Oprah. I don't know how we feel about Oprah and Dave going on my next guest or not.

With Oprah and Jay Leno, it feels like, okay, these are people who have a history with Dave and we've seen both of them do their rounds with him already.

Yeah.

I think with Jay it's different. Um, unfortunately or fortunately, their careers are always intertwined no matter what they achieve individually. Um, the interesting thing about D with Jay now is his personal life. um and what's going on with him um and his wife and her diagnosis.

And I think I don't see Jay Leonard as being the type of guy that would talk about that with Letterman.

Um but if he would, I think that would be a fantastic part of the interview. And I think you would see maybe some camaraderie between the two. Um I I think that's what the viewer would want to see. Um I I don't think anyone cares about um ratings at this point or rivalries. It's all kind of antiquated anymore. So, I think that will be the end on a Jay Leno interview, but I don't think you'll see it.

That's a great point. That's a great point. Like both men uh famously um you know, they've got the vulnerability that's out there is the vulnerability they have allowed to get out there. Both go both guys uh safe to say that that's the case. the idea of them talking about the real life stuff of, hey, we're getting old and this is some of the horribleness of of of of family and things like that when we get old and and and and this stage of life.

Um, yeah, you're right. And

you know what? If anybody could get Jay to open up about that stuff and actually, you know,

become vulnerable about it, it would be Dave. That's a great point.

You got a mug there, Darren?

I do.

What do you got? I've got uh late night with Sea Seth Myers.

Right on.

Okay.

I don't have a late night with Letter Room, but I got a Seth Meers. I have a got Regis and Kathy Lee. Oh my goodness. That's fantastic.

Uh the most obscure talk show host mug that I have is uh from Danny Bonaduchi.

Oh my god. And

he had the Danny Show.

Yeah. Yeah. I have Vicki.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know Vicky Lawrence. Wow.

Yeah.

And then of course there's irritable dad syndrome.

Of course. Got to do a plug for the show. Absolutely.

Go to irritable dads syndrome.com. Okay. Whatever. Yeah. So, let's play Darren's coffee mugs.

Mark, did did did Johnny like Oprah? Did they get to that place where where there was that that the respect that Oprah got, you know, came after um, you know, a lot of success where perhaps she wasn't given the due when it came to broadcasting because of the topics and and content of her show, you know, kind of early on and then, you know, Johnny left the stage in the early 90s and Oprah then really started kind of flowering after that. Um, was there uh was there ever contact between the two that you know of? She went on the with um she went on Johnny's show like three times with Johnny and then with Joan a couple times and was talking about how uncomfortable it was with Joan Rivers um with Joan like giving her apparently a hard time or not apparently with about her weight. Um but

um I thought her and her Oprah and Carson were great uh together. But yeah, like I mean I remember when I was really little I was in Arlington Heights, Illinois when Oprah was local in Illinois doing AM Chicago and then um went national and then um yeah she it like organically over time the show changed a lot and she did as a broadcaster but I thought she was great with Johnny. I mean, Johnny did back then um you know, he definitely I thought it was like looking back it's like uh but he did some um weight jokes like in Carac and stuff about like Oval teen um des and then it was like describe Oprah Winfrey as a teen or something like that with the but like did some of that stuff. I'm sure Oprah wasn't thrilled with it. Who would be? But um but other than that, I mean, I know when Ken passed away, Oprah put out a nice statement, but um I'm not sure. The only person I know of um that she had problems with was Joan. And then um that uncomfortable appearance with Dave on the NBC show, I think, when they were in Chicago.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

One thing you brought up was yelling, "Get her."

Yeah.

Something like that. And she just Yeah. One thing you brought up Mark that was interesting you said about her early days in Chicago. Before that she was on WJZ in Baltimore and where I grew up in Pennsylvania. We got all Baltimore and Washington stations because there was really no local stations. Um W whatever channel 8 was WJAL or whatever that was near Hershey where Mark's from.

Yeah. Oh my goodness. I know the NBC affiliate. I know it well.

That's right.

Based based in Lancaster. Yep.

That's right. Um, I live in Penn State now, so thank you for the shout out for Penn State earlier. But I think one end you could have with Oprah and Dave is Oprah is a broadcaster. She worked in Baltimore WJZ News every day and then she had a local show there and I remember her from when I was little because my mom would watch her before she went uh national. So maybe that's the end with Oprah and that's probably what I would want to hear because I don't think she talks about it much lately.

Yeah.

Yeah. There you go. the idea of the the broadcaster. I mean the broadcaster always is always the appeal with Dave, right? Because that's what

That's right.

that's what he is as opposed to comic like it's funny and actually Mark I want to ask you this just straight off the cuff. Um because a couple of us in here do standup and uh and and and I mean I've been I've been doing it. Last night I had a set uh actually I think I'm actually going to put the set up in the Letterman podcast uh uh Facebook group. I think I'm actually going to put it up. But um I know why I'm doing standup and and I feel like it's it's a similar reason. The reason I'm doing it, it's not because I'm an aspiring standup. It's because I want to get the discipline under my belt. I want to I want to get it so I can understand it. I can do it and uh be be, you know, at least somewhat passable at it. Um that certainly seemed to be D what the reason Dave did it. It was it was an entry point into what he wanted to get to, which is a higher level of broadcasting, but in order to get there, he had to learn the discipline. Um Mark, Darren, I know you both have have have have played around with it. Uh, is that similar for you?

I stand up because I crave the attention from the spotlight that I never got from my parents.

Yeah,

it shows, Darren. It shows,

right? It certainly isn't for the laughs, I'll tell you that.

Mark, have you done any sets at all in the last couple of years?

No, I haven't done standup in um a long time. It's been years and years, but like um I I've been writing material just down and um Christine, my wife, has been urging me uh to go back. So, um maybe after the book I'll go in. I've people have asked me to. It's just it's been a while. Um and it it scares me, which I think is probably a good thing. Um I try I I I really do try to Yes. And like the improv Chicago um things that if they're,

you know, They're scary, but they're they could be positive. I try to to go to to to do those type of things. But yeah, the standup, I mean, dang. Um, just remember, um, back in the day when I would do it, I would there's no in between. It was either I would bomb or I would kill. And like when I went well, I went well, but when I didn't, but I couldn't just do okay. And I just I I loved um when I started to do um those videos where I could edit myself so I wouldn't bomb I wouldn't think I would bomb or at least look okay. And then I did started doing those stunt comedy videos that started getting me on TV and stuff. So, but yeah, I'd like to um there's never been more venues in New York City to do standup. Like it's amazing. It's When I first moved here, you would know who all the standups were. Like I mean I wor I was a I um was a door guy at one of the standup clubs and stuff and you knew everyone and now it's just like so many. It's like hundreds and like thousands of standups around. But um yeah, never been more opportunity.

Are you able to tell the difference between a good set and a bad set in terms of reaction? Like can you pinpoint this is what I did right or wrong or is it completely audiencebased?

I think it's hard. I mean, I think it just depends on the audience. It depends on if it's new material or tested material. I mean, um I always think like um like the be the best people that I admire are the ones that can go into any type of venue or any audience and do well cuz there are certain people that only do well with alter alt rooms all and then other people can do well just with clubs, but the people that can do any type of audience I think is um pretty amazing. But um yeah, the whole testing material and stuff that's going to be I was going to start just doing open mics for like a year, but then somebody who's a successful standup I talked to recently, she's like, "Mark, no, don't. That's like you do not want to do that. Just do it. Just do a few and then just start getting up in front of people." And I'm like, that's feel like

is that because the audience uh to an open mic night is not indicative of the typical audience for a night of standup?

I just want to get I just really want to get the muscle back. To me, it's like going to the gym and I haven't been to the gym and like I don't even want to date myself with how long it's been since I've done standup. Like I've done like other performance stuff but like nothing like that. So, it's like I just want to like before I'm like in front of a paying audience that like I feel like if people were paying money, even if they're not, if they're regular audience, I owe them an experience. Yes. And to the best of my ability and I just feel so out of shape that I feel like those open mics, even though um back in the day they were not fun and and could be very toxic atmosphere. Um

that's what I was referring to. That's probably why she gave you that advice because audiences. It's hard to tell sometimes if the stuff would work or not with an audience. Feel like just to be me just even getting up and doing it, just like getting those reps in. I feel like um hopefully I'll be able to just tell when I'm ready to to do it. But um man, when I was a day I when I was at um doing um the door guy at the com at the Boston Comedy Club, which is in New York on Third Street, when it was like unknown Chappelle, Unknown Jim Brewer, Daryl Hammond right before he got SNL and Dane Cook, all these people before they got famous. It was amazing to see that like remember Chris Rock it was the it was the he it was the some it was like a year before bringing in the pain when he couldn't get arrested I somebody told me his agent dropped him and just to see him on a Tuesday with 10 people just bombing I mean just trying out new material probably 10% work which if you're doing all new material and 10% works that's pretty good but um

yeah it was amazing just to kind of see that insight and how long it really did take certain people a little bit longer like when I moved here to the city everyone told me Chappelle is going to be like like the biggest comedy star and he ended up be but it took like another like six years or seven years for him to get there but everyone was like it's going to happen tomorrow and it just took him a while and that was interesting to see how his standup evolved. Um just how Jay's standup evolved from him going on Carson and then him going on Dave Letterman's NBC show 40 times and just like like oh my goodness what a powerhouse. I mean, I opened up for Chappelle twice um

when I had a sketch group um in college colleges and it was right before his Comedy Central show and Dave contractually had to do 90 minutes I think on and he did um on one of them it was like over three hours and it's just like getting those reps. I mean Leno the same when he was on the road would do these long long shows and that's how you I I think for some people you get really really good. Um I guess it depends on the person but yeah. Was it the Bostononian Berry Cats Club?

Yeah. Oh man, I it was a rough room. There were fights. There was um I saw comics that had meltdowns that that just like the audience is that they've sniffed like weakness on stage. And then the these are some people that went on Dave's show multiple times that killed. Um but just like oh my gosh, it was not it was a room where they would send me out. I'm sorry to name drop a little bit, but they would send me to try to get like a Ray Romano who wasn't, you know, didn't have his deal yet with CBS with Dave. So, I'd go to the comedy seller and be like, "Ray, can you do the Boston?" And he's like him and like people like Louis CK just didn't want to be doing that room anymore even though Louie co-founded it. It's a rough room.

like I'm talking about more my kids these days and I couldn't get him to come over but um it was definitely um there was Patrice O'Neal I mean it was amazing all these people that were not famous that just blew up um Kevin Hart was over there um that just were waiting for stage time I remember um when Bill Burr came from Boston back to New York just like waiting like they wouldn't put him on and he was like waiting hours and hours and hours um just to try to get back in the New York scene and just paying his dues again and just um he was another guy that was unbelievable just to watch what he became and he wasn't quite yet Bill Burr. I mean it just took him a bunch more years of um I remember his Conan debut being like this was okay and then it was good but then it's just like powerhouse. Oh my goodness. But that was my favorite thing about I think watching the standup sets back then.

um is just how they organically just became like they were the Simpsons on Tracy Alman, these crude little things and then they be they found their voice and you're just like, man, but but to be able to witness that was um was really cool. I never got to go to the standup New York auditions that when Morty would go over to um and audition people and stuff. I always wanted to see that. But Zoe Freriedman and I would talk sometimes, I'm sure she has does not remember this, when I was in it, worked at Letterman and we would talk about standups and she would just talk about how how much in awe she was

of Mi of Mitch Hedber being so prolific. That was the one person she would always talk about. I remember

Mitch is just um yeah, he's another level like I just you know the idea of of being able to to tell a humorous story, an anecdote um you know and then and then and then taken and stretched and and uh and accentuated with with with with humorous um you know ideas. not Mitch Hedber. Like it was he's like almost like a poet, you know, like just these these these these two lines or three lines and then he moved on to two lines or three lines that were completely unrelated and then another two lines or three lines that were completely unrelated. That just to me the mastery that he had uh of this um and and yet at the same time also understanding the crowd going around and being able to shift on the fly knowing that he was pulling things out of the file folder depending on the audience that he had. Mitch Hedber is just one of those masters that I'm I'm glad his name came up today.

Well, Mitch, you know, I saw him twice.

Wow.

And you would be laughing at something and then three jokes later, you're laughing at that joke, that joke, that and you're still laughing at something from four jokes ago.

Wow.

And it was the honestly of all the comedians I've seen, it was the one time you just wanted to go, can you can you stop for a minute? Can you give me ju just just take a five?

I got to catch up. Let me catch my breath. Okay. Yeah, I saw him twice in Dayton and I've never seen anybody do what he did, how he did it with so much confidence and just just bam bam bam.

It was amazing

in these my next guest shows. Um, I mean, Mark, you you you mentioned, uh, you know, Chappelle and his early late late show, um, you know, appearance and then and then to to to going all the way to, you know, who he is now and then having that my next you actually just mentioned that's my very favorite my next guest. Uh, his and Jay-Z's are my two favorite of all time. I the very top of the heap. I loved Chappelle's appearance. I would love to see Burr Burr's uh early late shows. I love when when when when a an episode of my next guest can throw back to something that they did at the Ed Sullivan Theater. I I love that when they can throw back to clips of things uh that were there and then they can, you know, kind of intertwine them. I just I I appreciate that symmetry as well. And and Burr certainly had his spots um on Late Show and and and the idea of Dave talking with Burr, especially now like like a couple years ago, you know, Burr was a new father.

the idea that Burr's got this, he's his family man now, but he's still Bill Burr and and and some of the other projects that he has. I think that if Dave were to get curious, one of the things Shecky always told me about Dave was you wanted him to be curious about you about something. It wasn't that you wanted him to like you, it's that you wanted him to be curious about you. I love that when Rick would talk about that, um I I I would love to see Dave curious about Bill Burr right now. and and and to talk to Burr. Yes, as a comic, because Burr can do that and he'll throw out as much material as you want, uh, you know, in a panel style thing, he'll do that. He'll entertain everybody. But then for Dave to get that curiosity factor going, talking to him about being a father.

And if you look at Burr's last special, he had that moment in his last special where he was talking about how, you know, he's becoming an older guy now and there was this just this moment where a couple of days where he was feeling sad and his wife didn't know what to do about it and nobody else knew what to do about it and he was being really vulnerable. You could tell this is something that was taken from his life.

And uh I would love to hear Dave talk to him about that because Dave became a father a little bit later on in life as well. And I I think that those two would have a really uh fun episode. I Bill Burr is actually he's on my list. He's one of the people that I would like to see on that on that show.

It's such a huge difference when Dave is fascinated by someone. I remember he had an interview with um it was a mathematics genius, Daniel Tenet, something like that. I think he had a documentary called Brain Man that came out and he could recite pi for hours and he could, you know, name any day of the week for any year. And Dave was genuinely fascinated by him and there was a tenderness and a a good camaraderie between the two of them. And you know he I think he told Dave he looked like the number 17 or something. That's a strong number. And Dave said, "Well, you have my number." So those kind of interactions are fantastic. When you have him genuinely interested in caring about that guest, it's it's fantastic.

Yeah.

Has anyone ever seen that interview, by the way? It's familiar to me, but I don't remember it.

It's great.

Was it Was it Late Show?

It was Late Show. Yeah.

Okay. We got to ask Walter for it then. We'll ask him to put it up and put it He does uh he does requests on Friday. I don't know for those of you who who who follow the uh

the Letterman YouTube channel. And why wouldn't you? Uh every Friday or many Fridays, uh Walter will put up a fan uh request. So, we'll put that in as our fan request this week to see if he'll find that one and put it out. That's that's that's a great poll. Sher's on the list. I don't know. Does Sher have anything more to say or is it more similar to some of these other ones that we've talked about? Is there is there something new with Sher? I don't know. She did the you know, she finally got put in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and uh you know she I think you know mending fences with Dave after calling him an and then you know she came

that was like 30 years ago.

Yes, exactly. But no, and 40 years ago,

but she's talked about it again since then. Um, and then, you know, she was uh came out and kissed him before he left CBS. So, I don't know. I don't know that there's anything uh left for her really to say.

Yeah.

Okay. I kind of feel the same way. Now, the next one on the list, though, uh, is one that I hardily agree with. Um, you know, it's funny. I love watching Dave talk to the younger people, the Billy Eyishes of the World, Lizo, like like I love that and and more of that, please. Absolutely. But if we are talking about people from history uh to bring in and I don't know exactly why both monologues that I saw Dave do before um before the uh the Netflix is a Joe is a joke live shows. Uh he had Steve Martin jokes. He had jokes about Steve Martin's documentary. And I don't know if it was Shots, the two-part documentary that was that that came out that highly recommended by the way.

Uh I don't know if it's because Dave wasn't featured in it and he was just poking a little fun at it. I don't know exactly what he was doing. There was something there was something there where there was an inside joke, but the idea of Dave talking to Steve Martin for an hour,

I think. Um now, I mean, you look at what Steve Martin is doing, you know, with Only Murders and him and what him and Marty are doing with their oneman show or their two-man show, I should say. Uh the live show,

all those commercials. all.

Yeah.

Right. I I think that Dave and Steve um could have a really really cool uh cool in uh you know dialogue with each other. Um Mark, I'm curious about your opinion on that because Steve Martin obviously intertwined in all of the things that you love and all of your adventures over over this time here. Uh Steve Martin must be a guy that uh conversations with Steve. Have you had any conversations with Steve? Mark?

Um yeah. I only really I've been around him a couple times. We only met um once and had a conversation. He couldn't have been nicer backstage at the Co Bear Report. Um just Yeah, actually on the wall I have a like a banjo signed. I got him to sign some shut up.

Yeah, let me see if I can find it.

Yes, please do.

Or pull it off.

I'll just casually Oh, yeah. I happen to have a banjo sign.

Yeah,

that makes me so jealous. Um,

he was he was

play.

The reason that the the booker at Cole Bear, she was always so nice to me. She was great. I I was able to get a few guests on the show. And she asked me, I think it was a December or early December. She was like, um, Steven wants a movie star on the show. Who do you think it should be? She's like, you're good at this. And I've got I I got a bunch of people. I recommended a couple people on the show.

And I said, "I know it goes against our policy for comedy people cuz we found out the comedy people just didn't work for Steven's character, but I said I put on Steve Martin personally if it was a movie person." She's like, "Mark, that's the one person Steven said, but we could make an exception." And then it was like 2 or 3 weeks later um Martin was on and like everybody was like such in awe and he um Steve Martin he was like so nice and like my friend Amy who was in the green room was like Mark does comedy videos and mentioned one of my videos and Steve like did I didn't I read about that in the paper. I'm like yes I can't believe this is happening. Um, but he was like really nice and we did a photo and um I just I know he's um uh like just a like and I get it just like very an introvert. I'm an introvert but even maybe more of an introvert than I am. So I was like I just um was just glad he he couldn't have been warmer and nicer and I'm glad I went well.

Uh but yeah, that was a nice exper nice uh time with him.

I learned the juggle because of Steve Martin.

Really? Yeah, he was on the Muppet Show when I was a kid and I watched him and he, you know, looking back now, he was doing basic tricks and uh I was like, I absolutely have to learn how to do that. So, I learned how to juggle because I wanted to be like Steve Martin. I own a banjo, but I can't play it. Um, I inherit it from my father when he passed away. And if I ever meet him, I'll have him autograph my banjo, too. And I can shove that in Mark's face. Steve was the reason why I wanted to juggle, why I wanted to be uh funny. Still trying to be funny. Uh but I I did stand up and learn to juggle because of Steve Martin.

Hello.

Okay, Darren, pull out the three balls.

Uh I what I'll do is I'll steer you to my uh to the videos on my Facebook page. They're way better than uh anything that I can do on this podcast. Uh Steve Martin, the idea and let's go back to a Carson connection here. You know, you know, uh Carson the Magnificent, the idea of Carson being a magician and and and an entertainer in all sorts of other ways before, um you know, becoming the host of the Tonight Show, the idea Steve Martin, same thing. I mean, he learned a whole bunch of different disciplines to get to the place where he could become Steve Martin. And it's just very I love that parallel between those two. Yeah.

All right, moving on. Um, we've got now the next couple people on the list. I'm going to put together Co Bear Kimmel. Um, the strike force five like Okay, let's talk a little bit about late night here and then we can kind of if we have any other suggestions, we can do that and then we can kind of close it up for this installment. Mark, you've all Thank you all so much for taking time this day to come here and do this. I just love it so much. um the Strikeforce 5 like like the idea that that um the next generation after Dave and Jay kind of said, "Okay, you know what? Maybe we should all be friends and maybe we should all, you know, with maybe the notable exception of Craig Ferguson who who who many times, you know, while lovely of course, um you know, said, "I don't want to be part of this club. That's not that's not what I really want to be." A lot of them, they want to band together. They want to get along. They want to do that sort of thing. Dave Dave showing up on Strikeforce 5.

Um, love that. Love the idea. I know Ricky Jervves at one point wanted to get a bunch of these late night hosts together to do a to do a project together, that sort of thing. To me, that's the kind of thing that Dave just wants to really keep an arms length of, but he did show up on Strikeforce 5. It was awesome. It would be kind of cool to see something happen with these people if the genre is dying. And and I want to ask you, Mark, like I I did reach out and and and have a one-word email exchange with Bill Carter, whatever. Uh since this all started, is this the time? Is this the time for the last Bill Carter book about late night? Is that is that what's going on? Like, are we watching the whole thing implode? And because we just it's going to it's it's going to disappear because the medium is going to disappear. Are we watching that? Do you guys think

it could happen? I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's definitely like when when it was announced the Colbear cancellation, the first I very quickly thought about Bill. Um, and I mean, if there's going to be another casualty, I think that there there's I don't know if it's enough right now, but um, it's definitely being written as we uh, as we speak. And um, yeah, we we'll see what happens. and just I mean it the whole thing is just so sad and um just for everybody's jobs. But yeah, there probably I'm guessing there probably will be another booking bill if he wants to go that route.

I used to work at an NBC affiliate here in Cincinnati and the salespeople never had trouble selling local news because local news isn't something that people would DVR and watch later. They would always watch it for weather. or they'd watch it, see if their kids showed up on the on the football game or whatever. So, but I need to get in touch with some of my friends who still work there and ask them how hard is it because I'm fascinated like how hard is it to sell network uh programming anymore to sell advertising during, you know, the Chicago shows because I mean so many people are watching them on Peacock or on Paramount or they wait for it to get on Netflix. Why? It's like, why watch it with the commercials when all I have to do is wait until it goes on one of the streamers and then watch it, you know,

binge watch it. God, people love binge watching.

So, I'm wondering, not only is late night television going away, but is television television going away? Cuz people love binge watching the shows. They love getting it on their streams. I think the whole medium is difficult now because there's so many of those shows, too. It's it's oversaturated. You know, it isn't just it isn't just Dave and Jay or just Johnny.

Um,

and really, I don't think any of the shows have really differentiated themselves that much from one another.

Um, and that's not to say I'm not a fan of all those shows. Um, Mike, you mentioned Craig Ferguson. I think he had the best show out of everyone. I loved his late show. It was incredible. Um, but to go back to the original point, I I just don't think they're different enough. And in terms of interviews, podcasts have kind of taken that over. I can listen to anyone at any point, at any time, and it's a real conversation, and they're not shilling for whatever movie that I'm not going to go see.

Yeah.

Um, so I I think the whole format is difficult now. Um, I was hoping At Midnight would work really well. Um, I loved the Comedy Central version and it failed miserably because it was obviously pre-written. Um, so I don't know what's going to become of it. I don't think everyone's going to survive. It just might be one of them. And my first thought would be The Tonight Show because it's it's the gold standard. It's it's the um it's kind of the franchise. But in terms of ratings, it does the worst of the three, I believe, right now. Yeah.

So, I don't know what's going to happen. Mark, any insights or are you one of the are you at a place in your in your uh your career or your spot where you it's hard for you to commentate on this kind of stuff because you do host the podcast you are with Late Nighter like like I'm I'm I'm gingerly asking you about your opinion on this and if you need to kind of take the fifth on it I totally understand. Um, what specifically?

Just the entire genre and and and and and some of these shows like the idea to that point them being the same and and uh does it need to change? Like I look at SNL50 and I thought they hit the ball out of the park and apparently it was the most profitable year for SNL ever. That's that's the narrative that's been put out about that side. And yet we see late night is abysmal. And is that just a narrative being put out there? Um, is there a way that you can kind of change it and make and find other ways to make the show profitable to do with what we've all been talking about here, the idea that no, they can be streamed later. Uh, bigger versions of the interviews can be put out later and on a on a different format, that kind of a thing. Um, or is is the entire medium just is if this is just indicative of what's happening to the entire medium.

I don't know. I hope things are if they do go away, it's cyclical. Like the if we were told in in the in like the late 80s or early 90s there'd be prime time game shows on network television. You're like it's never going to happen and they're all over the place and

people are like reality shows are always going to be in prime time and like over and now it's like really hard to sell a reality show. I think things are cyclical. So um we'll see. I mean I hope the medium always exists. I mean it's it is definitely tough I think with the podcast. I think with the shows um everyone has like their unique thing that they do. I mean it's definitely I mean you know Conan had such a strong voice, Dave Letterman had such a strong voice. It doesn't really some of the shows maybe it's it's it's just a little bit different I think now but um I I hope that they will stay on as long as they can and like SNL is very much is like Carson. They really have never had any serious competition in their whole run. I mean, Arsenio did well, but Carson still it was like a different audience and like Arsenio did well, but Carson still was able to maintain and and never got dethrown from Arenio. But, um,

SNL had MAD TV for about 10 years.

They did, but Mad TV, that's a good point. Mad TV during that time, they um, their whole philosophy was that they would write comedy that um, that they would not write above over a 12-year-old's education. And they there would like they did not and it just it was a choice. they did not play up to the the the um their intelligence like SNL did with references and with things and it was just a completely

um it was a writer medium on SNL and the writers I mean just it was not like that at SNL and I don't know I've never heard of a sketch comedy show really succeeding on a huge um level without have like the writers it being about the written word and having some sort of control and Um, yeah. I mean, I just I heard some of some people I think um talking about Mad TV and it was like somebody was saying that like and I I've had people tell me this off the record and stuff that were at Matt TV. If they there was a well-written sketch, it was the exception. That's what people these are not my words. That's what people internally have told me certain people. And it was just um it's tough. Um

it was just a whole different process. It was not like how it was with SNL with the writing and I think that that maybe hurt the show from finding I know that people internally some people have said that you know we didn't get enough promotion from the network. If something is good there we after that many years they will find the the audience. I really do believe that. I mean, I know that they weren't pushed as much as they probably should have been, but um I don't really find that to be a real excuse.

TV was one of those shows that needed promotion outside of the network cuz the network wasn't doing amazing. They could have promoted it all day long. Um and still not gotten a lot of people. But I think if they did, you know, more bill Well, they didn't have the internet going crazy at the time, but I mean, what what are the options? more billboards, more um uh appearances on other shows and stuff to bring them outside in is what MAD TV needed.

SNL's kind of the exception to the rule, too. They're kind of the only widesped for a few years. That that didn't last. The state didn't last. Um Kids in the Hall um I guess there was a Kids in the Hall movie. Maybe you've seen Brain Candy. It's

it's a it's a movie.

It's a movie. It is a movie.

Oh, Canada. Kids in the hall are revered up here.

Hey, did anybody see hacks?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I was my mind was blown that they said, "Hey, what if we start going on and using our our website, our internet stuff to promote the show the next night?" And our networks doing actually doing that because that's a brilliant idea. Instead of showing clips the next day, we're going to show a clip of something that's going to happen the day before. And then so instead of doing the show live or doing the show at 5 and then airing it at 11, you record your show Monday, tease it, and then air that episode on Tuesday. And I'm like, that was just flipping brilliant.

I believe Seth Meyers has done a few promos day drinking with various celebrities for the most part. I don't think they do that because of the nature of late night, which is,

hey, you got to tune in and see what's going to happen. And then it goes viral the next day if it's going to go viral,

right?

If it could be a matter of a mindset shift and it could work, just no one's really doing it right now unless it's like we have this guest. Well, we're not going to know what the conversation is until the guest shows up.

They did it with Gutfeld. I

with who?

Gutfeld. I

I think it's good to try out different things. I definitely think economically if if some of those shows um did weeks at a time in in certain states and arenas or big theaters and were charging money for people to show up that aren't used to seeing famous people

that they could maybe make some like I think if I know that this is like probably not but if like WWE like they go on the road and their gates like for TV they're still making a lot of money on the tickets and if you can go to a place like a state most states you do not see famous people that like you know it like like like if a late night host has like Sandler and like a band, whoever it is, music person, all these like three or four people um to have that as an economic way. Plus, you could sell like you could sell limited merch at the venue. I just think like people need to think out of the box and try different things.

How much do WWE get for their Netflix deal? How many billions? A great idea.

Now they're getting more votes with like ESPN. I mean, it's Yeah, it's

I mean, even a secondary company like AEW, we're going way down the rabbit hole here. They're surviving um through TNT, TBS, and Warner. Was it HBO Max now?

Yeah. I mean, I

They're back to Max. Yeah, HBO Max.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just definitely think like trying out different things. I definitely think going on the road, even though it is expensive to go on the road, but if you're doing maybe you do two tapings like or something in like an arena or something or like I don't know or like maybe like five for the week Monday through uh Friday or whatever. I don't know how much. I mean, I don't know if there's an FCC thing where like I've never heard of a TV show charging money. I don't know why they don't uh for a tape and stuff like it could make money. People would pay SNL would pay people would be paying $500 or a,000 bucks. I mean, they just they're free. they've always been free and stuff, but I definitely think with economics um my one thing I do think because I think people need to to to to change things around and try different things.

I I've always said this um the last couple years and I pitched this internally to somebody at Fallon that they need that they should move to 8H um and do the show in SNL like Monday because SNL doesn't need to get in there till Thursday. You do now the show's four days a week. you do um it's very similar to when Leno went out to New York and went into 8H and was like this big discovery in '94 that like we're going to recreate this back in Burbank and a play with that many people having more people in there would do so much. I mean, the Tonight Show, what is like 250, you could probably get like with like putting in more seats, at least 400 people in there. And having people up close to Jimmy, um, I think would would really help the show. And I think like people watching the show, there would be way more energy uh to play with. And they could just do double the shows on either that Monday or Wednesday. Like Seth Myers right now is doing double shows, I think, on Tuesdays. Yeah.

But um I just think people need to try out some stuff. I I the you absolutely uh melted my mind with the idea of a show like this going on the road the way that WWE does. And I mean now nightly would be, you know, really difficult for something like that. But if you have a show that's maybe two nights a week or three nights a week or something like that, you could you could do it and that would bring in that revenue stream because there would be merch there, you know, the ticket sales, the all the all the stuff that are around that. What a cool idea that is. I I I uh man I love that because again what's going on with standup right now you know more standups are selling out arenas

that's true

than in the history of

anything you look at what Kil Tony is doing which is which is really in some respects Kil Tony is similar to a late night show it's but it's got its own you know it's not the the traditional desk and this and that but it is a late night show in in some regards it's got the DNA of of of of some of these panel shows And you look at the numbers that they are doing there, stationary or on the road, they are absolutely killing it. That's a phenomenal idea. Um and and boy would if one of the networks uh you know and that that could that absolutely could be that next step of evolution. I love that idea. things and I haven't seen them trying out much um new things, but I definitely think if um it's hopefully they they start maybe um implementing

I wonder if the host would be able to adapt because you mentioned Mark about Leno going to New York and performing before that his stage setup he was really far away from the audience. He wasn't connecting and it was that new New York setup that fixed it more or less. I left Cob Bear. When I was at Co Bear, there was 107 people in the audience and at least once a week we would have a tough audience. It was just hard for him to get through the show and he would be like, "Mark, what do you think of the audience? Like, why do you" And it's just it was then they I left and they added 50 people, only 50 people more. And it was like a raw concert 50 more people laugh. And that's that was only 50 people. I mean like whenever like people would go on the road especially like you whenever Conan or Letterman would go this the audiences usually were amazing. They're not jaded people normally um and they just I don't know for for a host to do that and um go in front of like when Kimmel or when Fallon I think was in Orlando and stuff.

It's like, oh my goodness, it's so much on the road would just interject so much more energy and

would allow them to play just I don't know, just do some really fun pretapes and stuff like around the area wherever they are and

I don't know.

Yeah, these are all phenomenal ideas. I want to I want to um I know I I appreciate your time here. I want to throw something out there because this is the pitch that I have uh for my next guest and I've never really said it out loud. I have said it to the Letterman people a little bit uh because it's just to me it's such a no-brainer. I can't even and maybe I'm just bent and I know well I am bent but maybe this is just to me it's a no-brainer but to everybody else it's kind of a hoham idea. Um I've got a few different people who I would love to see on my next guest. I mentioned Bill Burr and some of these other ones. Number one by far for me is Joe Rogan and and the reason for that is is there's a there's a bunch of reasons for that. Now now he's the biggest broadcaster in the world. Um and and that can't be disputed. Um you know, in this polarized nation or or world that we now live in, it's so funny. The people on the right think he's a liberal. The people on the left think he's um you know, a wingnut u um conservative. And he's not either. Like he's not either of those. He's got both sides who don't like him, but members of both sides who love him to the point where he is the biggest broadcaster on the planet in this new medium, long form podcasting. There is no one bigger then.

Where did he get his start? He is from one of the classes from the comedy store. Uh you know had to leave the comedy store because of speaking truth to power. Ended up getting vindicated coming back to the comedy store. Um you know the to me you know his bar the the mothership uh you know in in Austin is absolutely a phenomenal force in standup these days. Um, the bar in there is called Mitsies because he loves the comedy store so much he just wanted to perfect the model and apparently is doing so. I've talked to a few comics who have performed at the mothership. Um, never mind the fact that he is a kingmaker. You know, you look at some of these people who do spots on Rogan and the next day they get the Carson bump. I don't know that there is another broadcaster out there that has the Carson bump, but Joe has it. You ask Nikki Glazer what her life was before Rogan and then after and where she's at now. Like and and there are many other examples of that.

Again, talking about Kill Tony, the all kind of starts all there. To me, the idea of of of of Dave being able to sit down perhaps on the stage of the mothership uh with Joe uh perhaps there's a night, a comedy store alumni night the night before or the night after that they can use for B-roll. Dave's the MC of that night. To me, that is just such a um um it was funny. I talked to um I talked to Rory Roersgarden um the manager, comedy manager, Ray Romano's manager, longtime manager, and I told him the idea, and he just starts laughing and he goes, "Ha, you're thinking about this like a fan."

I'm like, "Yeah, that's that's what this stuff is made for. If you make stuff for the fans like this,

um it could be compelling." And again, who is bigger than a guy like that? I've just kind of stated my case. Am I nuts by throwing this out there or is it a like is it too ambitious, too many moving parts? What do I What What's What's wrong with my picture here?

I think you're not reading the room.

In what way? I think Jeff Joe Rogan is so controversial in a way where I don't think someone like Letterman would want to touch him because then it would be se seen as like, "Oh, Dave approves of this guy or likes this guy." Whereas the way that my next guest has been so far is, "Oh, here are people I would like to learn more about." Usually they're fairly uncontroversial people. Granted, I'm sure there are people who would say Obama is very controversial, but there's no one here where we're like, why was this person on? Like, they absolutely should not be on. I'm now not on.

Thank you.

Well, but time has faded Howard Stern's edge. Howard is known for being really an more of an interviewer and his persona changed, but um yeah, like like Jeff Bezos was just so famous, but I couldn't see Dave even though like the guy has changed the everything. Um

it's amazing what he accomplished. I don't know what that controversy of Dave would lean in to someone like that. Um I probably not.

So So you're right, Alice. Like I get that controversy.

Is is is Rogan the biggest broadcaster on the planet because he's controversial? That's not what that's not the take that I like I remember watching private parts and one of the things in private parts where they talked about uh they encapsulated in in in a beautiful little little scene. um they put out the factoid that that that was widely known within the industry that Howard Stern's fans, the people who loved him, listened to him a certain amount of time

and the people the people who violently or or or vocally I should say detracted against him listened to him more

than his fans did, which is I I I'm delighted to this day by that. I think Rogan has some of that. I do think that Rogan has some of that, but he's got a lot of people like he's the biggest broadcaster on the planet. And is that not a like how controversial is he if he's really the biggest? Like is he really that controversial?

People like watching train wrecks. So, and if you anger people, they're more likely to watch. I mean, we're living in a world with we talk about the algorithm where Facebook and Twitter, because I'm not going to call it X, um, they are programmed to give you what you want to see or things that will provoke a reaction in you,

right? So if you show me something like I killed killed Tony when he was at the Donald Trump

Oh, you're talking about cliff.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

With his remarks about Puerto Rico being a terrible place and it

Well, the joke Yeah. Yeah. He made he made a joke, but it was a joke that many felt were was punching down.

Sure.

So, it's that type of thing where that went viral. People want to check out what this guy is about, but it's not because, oh, I love him. Just because someone's getting attention doesn't make him actually popular.

That's interesting. I don't know. With the exception of Mark Maloff, Joe Rogan does an insane amount of uh he knows a lot about his guests and that's how he's able to comfortably have a long form conversation with I mean he he'll go up to what two and three hours.

They do three the average is three hours.

Unbelievable a broadcaster that can do that. I mean

yeah Stern is good with the research too it seems.

Yeah. Wing that.

What's up?

You can't just wing that. you've

no

you've got to know the the person very well.

So, you know, Joe Rogan would be a smart move for Dave to have him on the show because I think a gazillion people would tune in to it.

But

yeah, it would definitely get attention. I'm not sure.

I don't know attention though

or if has Rogan since he's been this famous. I mean, has he been on any late night show? Are they not asking him to be on or does he not want to go on or is he

He hates He hates the format. He hates the Okay, we got five minutes here, then a commercial, and then we got three minutes here, and we should plug that.

Be a guest. He turns them down. They are offering him bookings.

Yeah. Like, yeah, he's he's mentioned that many times. Like he he went on Rob Lowe's podcast uh because he's a friend of his and and some other ones, but but now he chooses to kind of say, which again I just respect the heck out of because this is Dave. this was Dave back in the day. Anything I have to say, I'm going to say on the show. Um, and and and I appreciate I appreciate that perspective, but something like this would be different to me because it would be a long form deal. Um, and I mean, I look at a guy like Kanye and Dave handled that swimmingly, even though beforehand, I love they showed the clip beforehand when Kanye was on my next guest and Dave was like literally going, "I am so nervous." Like talking about how nervous he was. I don't think he would need to be with with Joe. The reason being they go so deep on standup.

Like I mean how many of Joe Rogan's podcasts do is it just a standup where they literally for three hours dissect the process of standup and that's really all it is, you know? And then I just to me to me it's a I I do understand why perhaps Dave is in a in a place in his career where um I don't want to disparage in any way when I say this but the idea of playing it safe and and and perhaps um this one here he wouldn't be able to play safe enough because of some of the stuff Allison is talking about. I also think Dave regrets the way he handled the Kanye interview to certain to a certain extent because there were clips that were edited out that did get circulated where it's like why didn't Dave push back on the whole Hitler thing further

and it's a guest in your on your show and you're trying to have a show so you can't push back too hard otherwise and taping I'm walking off but it's also So incredibly offensive what he was saying.

Yeah. I don't know.

So

Dave just kind of sat there and was like, "Where do we go from here?"

I don't know. I think uh like like I don't know. I'll push back a little bit on that. Um because like when Kanye was talking about and don't get me wrong, my wife is building like a men's mental wellness app. her and her team are building this like like Kanye, he brought up a point about how men um many times are unfairly treated in certain situations and whatnot, but in the way that he did it, it was comparing to what women go through. And Dave pushed back and he said, "Hey," and he he he, you know, put an exclamation point on a certain thing, got applause, and Kanye even sat back and said, "Ah, you got me." You know, "Okay, well, you got me." Right? Like, so that that is one thing I do appreciate about Dave. I don't think with Joe it would have to go down that path at all. Um because, you know, I think they're two very very different people. I was just using it as an example saying that it's not like Dave hasn't interviewed controversial people before and done a good job doing it. Um but anyway, that's that's that's the one that's number one on my list. Did anybody else come up with any names that they want to uh throw out there for my next guest? Adam

Dave Gro for me. Oh, there it is.

Dave Gro that makes sense. Um

Mhm.

Dave Ro has kind of gone silent in the last few years after Taylor Hawkins death, after his mother's death.

Um, of course, there's the controversy,

Secret Love Child.

Um, so there's a lot of meat on the bone there. It is a little tabloidy maybe.

Um, but I think Dave will be great. Um, and you could go back to Virginia, DC, and playing at the local clubs and

um, I think that would be great show, but I don't know how likely that is. And it is a little tabloidy, but I think it'll be really good, especially since role has gone silent lately.

Yep. Would love to see that one.

To the Joe Rogan thing, I have zero interest. So, sorry, Mike.

No, don't be.

He's a great UFC commentator. Um, he's done a great job with his show, but I don't want to hear anything from Joe Rogan ever again. I'm I'm done. It's It's too much. Um, and an interview with Letterman isn't going to change that and it's just going to add more. So, I think it's too much of someone. I'm sick of hearing of Joe Rogan.

There we go.

I'd like to see Conan go on the show.

Yeah, that would work.

He had him he talked to him at the very beginning.

He followed him on his path, you know, how's the show going? How's this? and the the after he left the Tonight Show, that interview is one of the best. But since then, I mean, Conan Conan is one of those people that just kept and kept and kept evolving. And then it's like, you know, when he received his Mark Twain prize, he's like, you know, I never dreamed I would, if you told me that I would receive this from David Letterman, he's just like, you know, I would have called you a liar or however he phrased it. And so I would love to see Dave talking to Conan about really what it's like now being him with all the success

that he achieved because he nobody doubted himself more than Conan did. I think

I think that's a really good um choice. I you know I don't know if you he probably wouldn't do it but I think like Lauren Michaels going back to Canada with Dave interest in

you can involve Paul that way. Yeah, they had a very I think a pretty cordial relationship except when um with the whole Norm thing with um when he got fired and Dave being like Lauren and why didn't he do anything and then Lauren retorted I didn't see you uh Dave saving Bonnie Hunt from when his cancelling that show. So

but other than that I think seemed pretty cordial.

Lauren was a pretty early guest on Late Night too. I think around 82 83 or so.

Yeah. He didn't have anything really going on. Maybe the new show. Um but it was not the EP at SNL anymore. I don't think.

No, he wasn't. I saw that recently and he was promoting a movie or something.

Is it kind of universally thought that Letterman maybe saw himself as the Johnny Carson role and he saw Conan as his true successor? Meaning whenever you look at old clips of Letterman, Conan was on that show a lot. You know, they there was a joke they both ran out of the basement. They both grabbed jokes from the same file about Bob.

Can I borrow a Bob Dole's old joke?

Yes. Exactly. So, do we see Dave as do you think he saw himself in that mentor role like Johnny was to him or do you think he didn't see himself that way?

I think he just felt bad. What was that? I I always heard that Letterman hated when people would would would would um and I thought he I didn't think that this would be the case when people would be like, you know, I see you're my Johnny Carson and that whole role. I don't know for whatever reason.

I think he changed eventually. He find he did. But yeah, I think he's probably by now it seems like he's accepted that that he is that and and um I definitely think he is whether he wants to admit it or not um is that guy. They did a lot of crossover stuff like they had the standby audience for the late show go over to Late Night one evening and they featured on each other's shows a lot. So

it felt to me it was very similar.

Um

just like faxing the joke. Faxing the joke.

Exactly. Just like faxing the joke. Exactly.

Whatever happens. Yep.

This left here funny.

Funny. Yeah.

Allison, what were you gonna say on that? I know you're a huge Conan fan. I think at the beginning Dave felt bad for Conan because everyone was using him as a punching bag and true

Dave was seeing Conan not as this unknown kid but as a person who is being beat down by the media.

So I think there was some of that going on there. Also,

do you think is it a thing too that he wanted to keep his franchise going with Late Night since he started it?

I was thinkership some of that too.

Mark, what were you saying? I was just going to say when Conan premiered in September of 93, I mean, Letterman at that point when he premiered in in August, um I mean David had 11 and a half years at NBC, then he had the morning show, then he was guest hosting for Johnny and it was just like, you know, he he had so much practice that he was just I mean he was exploded and it was the biggest thing in television and to have that contrast to Conan figure it in and out as he went. But what I remember when he came out, I think it was February of 94 when Dave went on Conan show and it was just incredible and it did I think it probably did save the show. Remember that Friday? I think it was a Friday and um

yeah, it was really nice that Dave um did that. He did certainly didn't have to and that he would have Conan on it and Andy as well. And I think he did um feel like um had some empathy as much as he did with even though with with Tom Snider bumping him taking the slot um of tomorrow which what they didn't really they were going to get rid of it anyway but

because we're on a barricade man that ruined the show.

Yeah. Um our uh we're gonna do a shout out real quick to our boy Rob Kates who um when he finds out who the secret guest was is going to absolutely be beside himself. Rob is uh he's working for his local television station and he takes the Sunday shift a couple times a month and and could not make it today. He's done news directing and all sorts of stuff in his in his uh station that he's at. Uh but Rob did throw in a couple of ideas. Uh one of them was Conan, of course. The other two Martin Short and Paul Schaefer. Um, and the idea that maybe, you know, even at the same time or something like that, you could you could amalgamate those two into a very fine episode. I think that would be good. Rob Kates, um, we got to get, uh, we got to get the pre-orders for your books on his, uh, Facebook groups. He's got three Facebook groups, I believe. He's got the, uh, the Rat Pack one that has tens of thousands of members, the late night or the late the David Letterman fans, and there's a Carson one that he has as well. So, we got to make that um, the case. Mark, if people want to buy uh Love, Johnny Carson, where is the best place to pre-order right now?

Is there an Amazon link? Is there a better better spot for it? Can people get signed versions of the book? Where

people are asking? Um yeah, it's all over the place. I mean, you can go to Amazon. You can go to Target.com or Barnes & Noble, Books a Million. Um Atoria Bookshop where I am. I signed. People have actually asked me, believe it or not, if they could buy signed copies, and I am You're very nice. Um, so yeah, they're going to be selling signed copies. They currently are available for pre-order, so I'm going to do that. And um,

yeah, like I have some Sinatra stories, so maybe that will work for his Sinatra Facebook group. But um, I'm really um happy with um with the book, and yet the pre-orders would help me so much. Like I have stuff about that Tom Wade stuff that like I don't think has ever really been talked about too much um with Carson and stuff that that that's kind of like beloved within um the Dave um universe and as I count myself one of them for sure. So um hopefully um I hope people like it. But yeah, I would I would definitely appreciate the the pre-order um love. Um I know there's a bunch of other places that that um have it as well, local places and stuff. So, yeah.

Okay. So, love Johnny Carson. Look for the pre-order. Um, you know, wherever your book seller persuasion might lead you. Um, very, very exciting stuff. Before we close up this uh this episode here, does anybody else have anything else they want to throw out there? Very rare that we got Mark here. Any other questions? Anything that we want to throw out before we uh call her a day? Allison,

two things. You didn't ask me for my suggestions and I have a whole note card here.

Oh my gosh. I'm sorry, buddy. I'm sorry. I was just waiting for people to jump in. Sorry, Allison. That's my bad.

Also, as we were talking, it just dawned on me that in some ways my next guest is has become the successor to Inside the Actor Studio.

Sure.

With James Lipton.

Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah. Similar.

Sure.

The Tomorrow I always thought it was the successor to the Tomorrow Show, but the idea of Yeah. the long form that and again this is why podcasts are so popular these days is people crave the long form. Couldn't agree more. Who are some of your ideas for my next guest?

Um, so I had Conan on my list. I was thinking Mark Maron, which

kind of along the lines of a Jeff Rogan only

Joe Rogan. Yeah. But but Marin appearances on Late Show. So the idea of there's some connection there.

Um, I think Chuck Lori would be interested interesting kind of like the Lauren Michaels just a huge impact on American culture.

Yep. Um, Stephen King I think would be interesting as well.

Yeah, that would be an interesting one if Dave got curious about it. That's a deep rabbit hole. Um,

yes,

next week. You know what? Actually, this will be time travel. Okay, so it's next week for you guys. Last week for anybody who's listening to or watching this, uh, we actually had uh Dan Cashman uh the host of the night show, which is the last regional late night show. Um, and it's in in in Banganger, Maine is where they uh where they record that episode of that show. And David Letterman was his last guest on his last show. Um, and so we had Dan on and and we talked about Stephen King quite a bit in that uh in that episode as well. That's a fantastic answer as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's great. All right, anything else? Anybody? Are we there?

Oh, thanks for having me back on. It's always fun.

Oh my gosh, all of you. Y'all friends of the show. you're all like I love the fact that we have this kind of community of people and whatnot. Um uh in our little corner and then of course the big corner of of lateer.com. Thanks all to to to Jed and and his team there and and uh u Adam, I appreciate you so much. Allison, appreciate you. Darren, thank you. And Mark, you taking time out today to do this. I I'm tickled pink by it. We all are. Thank you so much. We will support everything that you do. Hey everybody, if you want to watch a real podcast after you watch this one, go subscribe to Inside Late Night because that's the one you want to watch. That's the one you want to listen to. Um Mark, thank you so much for taking time to be here today. I love you.

Oh, no. This was so much fun. I don't I never I very rarely get to have these type of conversations with uh people that love the medium so much. And no, this was a pleasure. It was so nice seeing all of you and I really appreciate it.

All right. Well, I appreciate that. That has been another episode uh of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum. Coincidentally, I am Mike Chisum. Thank you and good night.

Overcoat and underpants.