Steve Randisi Wrote The Inside Story On Merv Griffin

you're watching the Letterman podcast with Mike chisen endorsed by the hello Deli yeah welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum um this is a fun episode we focus on uh murf Griffin Johnny Carson David Letterman um but a big part of it murf Griffin uh Steve Randi is our guest today he is the author of uh MV Griffin the Inside Story um and this is a guy who boy for for for the small uh resilient handful that are still with us listening or watching uh this is one of our people my gosh Steve is you know uh you know actually we have this on the we we can we talk about this in the context of community members from the Letterman podcast uh Adam NF to game shows is to um you know uh uh Scott Ryan you know David Lynch offici in Auto um you know of course Adam younger Warren Zeon historian official historian okay well um Steve randesi is that tamur of Griffin and written a book about it and just dozens and dozens and dozens of anecdotes and we go down the path comparing uh talking about the uh Johnny and Dave comparisons Johnny and MV comparison M and Dave comparisons lots of that lots of cool very cool inside stories and shouldn't bury the lead we now have confirmation as to where David Letterman's double erased eraser pencil came from I'm I might be the biggest in the whole world maybe a lot of people knew this but I don't think I am a lot of people don't know and uh we now know where this came from it was a tribute to Johnny Carson and we're going to talk about that in this episode um yeah you know what let's just get to it uh we just Steve Rand DC fantastic historian uh of of Merv Griffin and many many other things he's got three other books or two other books out um and then one on the way um and just a fantastic guy enjoy all right Steve uh ever since I found out about your existence and we had our our our couple of conversations here you and I can go and go and go and go here is the first question I have for you MV Griffin do you think that in the um uh in our culture do you think he is underrated for his contributions to what he has done in entertainment and business well he's underrated with uh it's a generational thing there you know there are boundaries of time when it comes to the audience a lot of younger people don't know who he did who he was and what he accomplished yeah I mean he was certainly revered you know during his time and then when you point out to people that you know two of the shows that you watch every night uh just before prime time you have Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune those are his Creations so he left a lasting impression you know on the on the on the television industry so um but like I say there's a generational thing I don't think people of a certain demographic would be too familiar with him yeah unless they're People Like Us who are into this and they study you know what came before a lot of them unfortunately don't even excuse me are not even familiar with Johnny Carson that is that that's actually one of the reasons why I started the show is because um here you have somebody who is the biggest star in the world at that point you know him and Frank and atra and I mean uh you know Elizabeth Taylor Maybe I mean there aren't very many that could be kind of put into that Echelon and here you have and and again who inspired many of the people who are still uh in the Limelight right now you look at a guy like Conan O'Brien I mean he he inspired significantly by Johnny and they don't know who Johnny Carson is now I go back okay so we know that Johnny Carson was the biggest star in the world at that point in my view I mean like MV Griffin did more shows than Johnny Carson did like you know he he he over over I think he is actually even approaching Letterman I think him and Letterman are both very close to Total shows uh but you don't hear MV mention mentioned the way that you hear Johnny mentioned well there's two reasons for that number one they don't rerun MB that often MeTV was running his shows briefly a few years ago I think over the summer of U I think it was 2015 or something like that and MV is on DVD as is Johnny but you get Johnny six nights a week on Antenna TV and then you have certain streaming channels where he's on 247 so he still has that tremendous exposure which M Griffin doesn't have and then the other thing is you have to remember is that MV Griffin his talk show he was on 23 years yeah and his show went off the air in 1986 yep and the Millennials are that's what that's before their that's before their time you know yeah even Carson lasted till 92 or whatever it was yeah yeah that's a good that's a very very good point um and also the other thing about uh let's get into this right away uh something that that that that I feel so bad for my friend dick tavit about uh of course Johnny Carson and and M Griffin of course fell into this as well many of his shows a huge portion of his shows were lost completely well the first 10 years of Johnny from 62 and 72 yeah are no longer extant but you have from 72 on MV has uh quite a few from the 60s his Westinghouse his syndicated Westinghouse show is is largely available and that's what's on the DVD set that you could get you know you mentioned dick kavit did you know that he wrote for Jack par yes he wrote for MV Griffin yep he wrote for Jerry Lewis yeah and he wrote for Johnny Carson yep before he got his own gig isn't that amazing I I absolutely and and and the story of and he told it on this show the story I believe he told it on this show um the story of how he he got the gig um you know with with Jack par it was just it's a phenomenal phenomenal story you talk about Jack par and MV Griffin I mean and we're going to get into that here um you know we talk a lot on this show about uh you know what Bill Carter lovingly referred to as the late shift you know when uh when Johnny retired and and and Jay showed up and and Dave moved over uh Conan um you know arinio was in the mix uh in the syndication so we can get to that in a minute here too because of there's a comparison with MV on that um and then you know and among others and that many people consider that to be The Late Shift one of the reasons I'm so excited to have you on here Steve is this was not the first time that there was any sort of a late night war and and and when Jack par retired um he kind of set off a a chain of events that led to that generation's version of a late night War um when he called it quits they had a bunch of guest hosts in between when Jack left and Johnny showed up one of them the chief one being and what many considered to be the best one MV Griffin MV Griffin and Jerry Lewis was the other one Jerry Lewis was the other one the both of them the both of them got uh talk show contracts Lewis got a talk show a Saturday night talk show on ABC and MV went to NBC yeah and Bob Shanks murv Griffin's producer told me that the reasoning behind NBC's decision was they weren't sure if Johnny was gonna work out so they wanted Mur Griffin in the bullpen to fill in in case Johnny didn't work out that was like a safety net for for them but I brought along a list with me that you might be interested in some of the interim guest hosts were artlink yep Bob Cummings Jack Carter Jan Murray supie sales peterin Hayes Mort Saul y Jimmy Dean Steve Lawrence arleene Francis Jackie Leonard Gro marks Hugh DS Hal March Jerry Lewis and M Griffin there were 17 uh guest hosts was Jo Joey Bishop as well was he in that list did you did I miss him yes oh yeah yeah yeah yeah Joy Bishop was yeah yeah and amazing and how many of those guys ended up you know some of them were already well established but how of them ended up with shows as well I mean big list it's a big list the uh the first competition for Carson was not R Griffin that would have been Les crane on ABC he was the guy with the microphone shotgun I don't know if you remember him or not I don't but it was it was called nightlife and he was on at 11:30 on ABC tremendous failure and then they tried all kinds of innovative things uh they tried to switch cities and formats but it was not a um a success so that so he's a footnote in the history of late night television the Les crane show and but the Les crane show so that's ABC uh MV went over to CBS correct well he M MV was on NBC excuse me again yeah M was on he started out on NBC in the daytime yeah at two o'clock in the afternoon yeah and and that only lasted until April he started in October of 62 and then ran until April of 62 unfortunately a nighttime show didn't play too well yeah two o'clock in the afternoon that was considered too cerebral for the daytime audience you know the housewi yeah don't mean to sound sexist but the housewives of America who were doing their housework and their their chores you know they didn't want to hear about you know the these eclectic subjects you know the or's esoteric subjects so it and people were watching password yeah which was on CBS so uh that failed and then murf did a game show called word for word yeah which enabled him to become his own producer so when nightlife bit the dust in 1965 ABC's next uh try out was Joey Bishop from 67 to 69 with reges filbin yes is an and did you know Regis filbin had his own talk show Absolutely in San Diego was a local it was called that Regis filban show yeah and he had he had Richard Nixon on he had a lot of heavyweight people on that program the uh it's so like on paper Bishop Bishop is one of those ones that that fascinates me because on paper you'd think like you say Regis who already a dynamite broadcaster as a as a backbone but but part of the Rat Pack um you know you think that Bishop is going to be a guy that has some legs uhh uh with with Carson you know later on Dick kit same sort of thing I mean a perfect example of counterprogramming I think he was a really really good alternative to Johnny uh but with MV like you say moving away from being U maybe head-to-head with Johnny um similar audience different audience what do you think about that well it was the same audience they were you know they were buying for the same slice of the pie and the 1130 and the 11:30 at that point yeah yeah but see what happened was after Regis uh failed at his syndicated talk show by group W Westinghouse they gave that no that show actually belonged to Steve Allen it was a Steve Allen Westinghouse show that failed and they gave that to reges when reges failed they gave it to Merve yeah that taught on that skyrocketed that was from 65 to 69 and then when CBS decided that they too could demonstrate that they could have an audience in the 11:30 time period they put MV on opposite Carson and that was really the first three-way talk show War you know this Trilogy of great shows you had Bishop on ABC yeah Johnny on NBC and MV on uh on CBS and then when Bishop folded at the end of 69 that one to C it right and one WR you remember last week you had uh Rob uh Rob Kates Rob Kates yep absolutely yeah he he held up the Newsweek uh magazine that had the three hosts Bishop Carson and uh and gri and MV yeah and MV right exactly so when Bishop uh went off the air and he was replaced by cabat there was one reporter in Newsweek who put it succinctly he said you have Carson the funny guy you have MV the home spun guy and you have cavitt the intellectual guy yeah and of course everybody went with Carson because don't forget NBC had a lot more stations than CBS did NBC had something like 200 stations against mv's 105 or 120 show MB was actually seen on more stations when he was in syndication on Westinghouse on the Westinghouse Network than when he went to CBS so it was actually wasn't there a point where he had actually wasn't there a point where MV actually had shows on all three networks at the same time or something like that wasn't it there was not no not it wasn't the same time but like he ended up bouncing around was on all ended up being on all three networks wasn't he he was on he started out on NBC yeah then he went to syndication on with Westinghouse yeah then he went to CBS then he went back to syndication with metr media okay right gotcha and that's where the Lo that's the longevity uh pie there right that's the one that ran and ran and ran and ran no he had prog he had program that he produced at the same time that were on all three networks because you had Jeopardy had Wheel of Fortune and he had a whole Litany of other game shows that he produced some of which were just shortlived you know like reach for the stars and let's play post office and Joe Garo was memory game a lot of people don't even remember these shows today yeah but his two big uh hits in the foray of of game shows were Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune yeah I mean dance dance fever was also a big head for him too dance fever again yeah like again people now right now might use Dance Fever as a punchline that was a massive massive show from a from a a profit standpoint and from a a reach that was a huge show um so you know there are people that I try and compare uh MV Griffin too and I and I and I I patiently will tell people there was a time in in in in like the late 80s early 90s where Donald Trump and MV Griffin would be constantly compared to each other as business Moguls you look at entertainment Moguls and and you take a guy like Dick Clark and you put MV Griffin beside like to me those are like okay these are heavyweights but again MV many times just doesn't seem to get that respect that he uh certainly deserves but the one thing that I would I would just from his forward facing image his public comments and interviews and things like that murv seems to be most at home being a almost a folksy Entertainer always with a joke as opposed to the other guy might be a little more serious well there's a difference between Carson and Griffin Carson was essentially a comedian yep he was the best absolute best at what he did no question MB on the other hand was an all-around entertainer right you know of all the talk shows he was the only one who could carry a decent tune he could sing big singer yeah very every aspect of his shows was under his thumb he knew exactly what was going on whereas Johnny had a tendency to you know to delegate responsibilities to producers and you know Talent coordinators and Stage managers and things like that earlier today you sent me a um you sent me some a clip a thing of clips of David Letterman Don Killer's compilation I believe it's in talk show number five yeah I highly recommend it to everybody out there Don Gill's compilation shows every time that MV ever touched any uh late show or late night um uh um production and it's all in one beautiful compilation I highly recommend it Don Gill's Channel y EXC L done if you look at the first segment that's on that reel of Clips uh you know MV comes out and they played um I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts which was the number two song in the country in 1950 that was his novelty song but the point that's what stood out to me is that he gave David Letterman a little bit of advice he said when you do an interview with somebody you zero inclose and you look them in the eye and Mur had this intensity which he gave and then you look at some of the clips that followed when he when when when Dave got a little bit more familiar with MB he's much much more laidback and relaxed and M got he got older and older and heavier and heavier as as as you know as the years went on also massive massive success that guy enjoyed life right and the other thing is that if you met M Griffin on the street yeah the way I did in 1980 if you bumped into him on the street and he he gave you that intense look he looked you in the eye and he spoke to you and he treated you as though you were a guest on his show he made you feel important you know regardless of who you were or are you know or anything like that so when you walked away from having an encounter with M Griffin you know you met a star oh that's very very cool the other thing about that the reference that you're talking to uh the interview I should say the conversation that he had with Dave that was actually on the morning show and and and MV MV came on there and and really and I mean Dave had trouble with the morning show from from day one that's been well documented we've talked about that on this show uh because you know it's it's it's the right show being played at the wrong time essentially is is is what it was and and and yet at the same time murf comes out there and and not only does he give Dave the props as to how good the show is and it was a great show just at the wrong time but he also gave Dave advice that whether or not he was cognizant that he took it or not uh it was about failure and and and I loved I loved how he talked about how failure is actually the thing that propels him forward and and and you're you know it's that uh personal development addage you're winning or you're learning kind of a thing but he talked about how much he failed and how many of his game shows and how many of his project did fail and yet he moved on to becoming you know probably greater than anybody ever would have thought he would have well you mentioned something that's very poignant Mur had a personal connection to that because his show his NBC show in the daytime was a perfect example of what you said it was the right show at the wrong time yep a tonight's show format doesn't play well at 2 o'clock in the afternoon no so that was a good example of uh that you know being you know the right show but you know in the wrong see Mike douas he was perfect for the lunchtime crowd and the early afternoon crowd his show was perfect for that time slot MV was a little bit more sophisticated you know he got into edgy topics he got into topics that normally were not discussed on daytime TV and a lot of a lot of critics the critics the critics loved that show unfortunately the audience didn't tune in because they were watching password on CBS yes well and that's the same thing I think they even made a I think they even made a game show joke uh when he was on the morning show there and of course when Dave's show was pulled from the morning what did they fill it with it was a block of game shows I mean game shows such a huge a huge thing now now uh correct me if I'm wrong um what's your hunch that was his first player hunch player hunch was that involved was that around when the quiz show Scandal uh happened or was that kind of made in the aftermath it was just after the was early 50s and player hunch came on at 58 interestingly when MB got the idea for Jeopardy which he actually got from his wife Jan she's a she's a great lady I I love her she gave me a very nice interview for my book they were sitting on a plan she in remember on a plane and he was doodling on a on a sketch pad and she said what's that is that an idea for another show another game and he said yeah he said I'm trying to come up with a game and she said why don't you come up with a show where you give people the answers and let them divine the questions and he said are you crazy he said people are going to jail for that give people the answers and she said no no no no do it legitimately yeah tell them the answers and let it be known that this is the answer to a question and that's how Jeopardy was born now that show was an originally turned down that was rejected by Mort Warner who was a big executive in NBC because he thought that that was too smart you know the audience was not smart enough to handle a show like that yep but was it was Grant Tinker the guy who was married to Mary Tyler Moore wow wait a minute let's play around with this you know there there's there there's some possibilities here yeah so ultimately it got green lit and then it went on the air and the the original title was what's the question are you kidding me what's the question it wasn't called Jeopardy from the beginning it was called what's the question and then they changed it to Jeopardy and it went on the air with art Fleming as the host in 1964 exactly uh Grant Tinker also an executive who had uh uh well I wouldn't say running but he was one of the ones who uh was the executive for David Letterman for a time as well so yeah yeah I uh um you know talking about the game show and uh I I I I can talk all day about the connections between personalities on game shows and personalities on talk shows and and it's so funny over the years how how um one has bled into the other but MV is the guy that kind of did kind of both you know he he really I mean Johnny started out with game shows of course but that such a a neat um to me your vacation with that earn your vacation was John's first big game show do you know how got into how he got into talk shows tell me play player hunch was taped in studio 6B at NBC yes and Jack par used to cut through the studio to get to his office and one day he came through the curtain in the middle of a show and the audience went nuts they went oh my God it's Jack par because at that time Jack Parr was the big you know he was the big host the host of The Tonight Show beautiful legendary and he and Mur had an exchange totally ad Li everything off the cuff totally extemporaneous and the audience howled at everything they said and then that's how mer got to guest host for par on The Tonight Show yeah and the first time he did it he froze up he couldn't go on the air he said I can't do this he said I'm leaving and his producer who actually it wasn't Ms produc he became Ms producer this was the guy who worked for Jack par Jack Jack's guy Bob Shanks yep the man who later created Good Morning America in 2020 for ABC he said M you got to do this you can't leave he said if you walk out on this you're gonna ruin your career in television they will never trust you again he said don't be nervous play to me make believe I'm the only person in the studio and he did and he was a smash yeah this would have been April of 62 so when par uh left no excuse me I'm sorry I'm sorry it was January of 62 was part part left night show at the end of March yes in 62 and then from April to October you had those 17 people that we just talking about right because Johnny was fulfilling a commitment with another with another show at another Network and so TR there you go um and that was originally called do you trust your wife did you know that I don't remember that no I had no idea a guy there's a guy I got to get you connected with named Adam uh Neff he's a game show historian he's been on this show and he's pH you two are going to get along as well as you when I get along but I'm always going to be your favorite what I was going to say is here's a little bit of Tonight Show trivia for you who was the first woman to guest host the Tonight Show do you know that it's not Joan oh God Joan probably wasn't even anywhere near the business no this is this goes back to 1956 see because Steve Allen used to alternate with Ernie Kovac yeah for him and one night he couldn't make and the first woman who guest hosted the tonight's show was Betty White oh that's right I did know that yes and then dur during during the par era in 1959 Arlene Francis filled in for Jack Parr in 59 you you're old enough to remember What's My Line I Know What's My Line absolutely your game show your game show guy would know that oh Adam absolutely yeah Adam Adam he knows he he just uh he's got four you've got four books out or you're working on your fourth four three your fourth one you're working on I think he's got four or five um he just uh released the uh The Gong Show book and there's other ones that he has done biographies on on hosts and things like that he is absolutely um enamored with reporting yes sir what do you got there you know you know something I was looking at my Amazon reviews today and at the bottom of the Amazon page my penny Singleton book you know Penny Singleton who played Blondie I did her biography it said people who have bought this book frequently look and buy this book and it was The Gong Show book there you go yeah yeah you and Adam are gonna you you and Adam are going to be become fast friends um absolutely I uh so so Johnny and MV um I want to talk about their Dynamic for a second because uh because again you have these these people um in this very unique I don't know something could be very unique I think unique is just a state of whatever but it's just unique yeah right noif for yeah yeah you don't need the qualifier doesn't strange you should mention that I was looking at a Tomorrow Show interview with Johnny Carson and Tom SNY yep Johnny said very unique and then he corrected and stuff he said oh no he said that's wrong he said there's no qualifier it's not very unique it's just unique because Tom Snider asked him he said did you want to be unique following unique because Jack bar was unique and Johnny said no I didn't want to be unique following unique he said that never works in Show Business yeah he wanted to be his own man which isas what he did yeah absolutely um the dynamic of Carson and Griffin you were saying yeah no no you just you know what we'll come back to what you were just going down yeah the dynamic of Carson and Griffin because I mean um this situation where you have these talk show hosts there aren't very many of them uh it's it's it's it's blazing a trail in many ways extremely profitable for the network if they can make it work um and and many times there have been uh attitudes where there is conflict right now the the the four or five or six uh late night hosts get along very well during the writer strike they released a podcast together you know they're the strike force five but it wasn't like that of course famously Dave and Jay um you know that Behavior Uh which which which fractured their Dynamic you go back and you've heard like Jack and and and or not Jack um you know Johnny and Johnny and and dick cavitt you know for a while there but mvin Johnny never really had they always got along pretty well didn't they well there was a bit of there was a bit of a rivalry at the beginning in 62 yeah because they were buying for the same guests y you see you got to understand M was a was a motion picture actor before he got into television so a lot of the top directors a lot of the big movie stars people like Elizabeth Taylor and Judy Garland they knew more of Griffin Johnny was a game show host who was on the daytime so he didn't have he didn't have the stature in 1962 that he would have a decade later right when he was the biggest star in the world the biggest star in the of the media y so a lot of people would go on with MB and they didn't uh not that they didn't like Johnny they didn't trust him because they you know they were not too familiar with him so there was a time when there was a comedian by the name of um uh I can't remember his name now uh oh shauny Mickey shauny he went on the tonight's show and he mentioned M Griffin they bleeped out the name m Griffin yep even though they were on the same network they were both talk show hosts on the same uh y they thought that this was undo a plug for for for a competitor and this is all the way back in 1962 like what you're describing for people in in in in in my um generation who love this stuff but never got a chance to go back and understand or or haven't read the Carter books or some of the other books that have come out that is UN like you know that's be exact behavior that we saw and it's funny how that is sort of a Timeless thing the idea of when you have the guest in the chair uh and they are a television star but for a show on another Network that's what you're saying you know what this person can be seen in Mash on another Network and that's that's the verbage they would use and the behavior that you're talking about bleeping out you know that person's like it's it's it's astounding right right it's Timeless it's something it's always been there we're not talking about unique uniqueness you got to realize that the talk show genre is something that is unique to television because this is a format that was never done in any form you know you know getting five or six people together and putting them on a stage Y and having them Converse having them interact and having them perform totally adid off the cuff that was something that was never done in radio it was never done in the theater so this is a format that is unique to uh the broad to the television medium yep and the talk shows are important in my view and I'm sure you'll agree because there there are little miniature time capsules yes of of our culture at the time you know you look at some of the Carson Clips there's one Carson clip where he comes out and he's dressed as Shirley Temple yep and he's singing on The Good Ship Lollipop that's because Shirley Temple had announced that she was running for congress this was in the mid-60s yeah so a clip like that speaks volumes of what was happening in the news at that time you know yeah and you know you look at some of the talk shows where certain themes you know certain things that fads the Streaker on The Tonight Show for example when streaking yeah was Pat MCCA came out he stre Across The Tonight Show stage probably gross everybody out but that's F bies of what was you know the fa at that time you know what was happening in in our culture and not just the Time Capsule for just the show itself but you think about it there's three or four many time capsules per episode because you have the monologue of course you know you know which many times of course is taking shots at at leadership or or or events of the day you'd have musical acts who you know of course you know show the the The Taste and and what not never mind the comedy pieces and never mind of course the subjects uh discussed during panel um and and and you're right that it is a unique to television and I would even submit like terrestrial television not streaming ter I don't think it is terrestrial darn it um anyway classic TV as opposed to streaming I mean Netflix has Amazon they've been trying to figure out how to nail a Daily Show and they can't really do it yet and I think it's because um you know they're getting into sports Netflix and streaming is getting into sports I think they're going to do very well at that it's the appointment it's the appointment that needs to be kept no matter if it's on network TV or streaming TV but talk shows at the end of the day have been appointment television like network television not even just Network I guess there's a lot of lot of cities around in North America that have a localized version of one of these talk shows it's penetrated the culture to such a deep level and you're right it's just specific basically the television Television right exactly see these guys like Carson and Griffin they were captivating you tuned you wanted them in your living room you know and you you know and uh they were very very good at what they did and talk about the dynamic between Carson and Griffin aside from being game show hosts and talk show hosts and you know wealthy guys who had these multi-million dollar contracts they had one other thing in common they both love tennis yeah okay yeah M Mur Griffin's Uncle Elmer was one of the preeminent tennis champions and Johnny loved tennis now why is it that they never got on a tennis court and played a few sets I don't know why that never happened I'd pay money to see that I mean yeah you got to wonder how hard that they would go at it would it be leisurely or like I mean you know Johnny was a fierce competitor he was a fierce competitor anybody anybody who came at him um you know probably because he made his bones it wasn't it wasn't a certainty that he would keep the show and and and and you know over the years he learned how to protect himself in ways that are just you know Championship like mentality you know you watch the last dance with Michael Jordan and you think a lot of these these these people they think at that level they compete at that level you got to wonder if those two played each other how hard they would go like you part of me thinks that Johnny would let loose as much as he could well I don't think B was the type of guy who would acques you know who would give in you know who would give in and let Johnny we probably would have given him a run for his money and M really didn't have anything to lose because you know at that point they were not against each other anymore if you look at M's first appearance on the Carson Show which aired the night that murb aired his last episode September 86 the two of them you know now that they didn't have to compete for guests or ratings they were going at it with Libs they were trying to top each other in the joke department they were you know they were you know they were it was sort of like can you top this and it's hilarious is that clip out there it's on YouTube yeah so so MV Griffin's appearance on The Tonight Show simultaneous of to the day of his last show that's see that's the dream match in the talk show world this is this is you know uh a month before uh Dave retired I had a a conversation with him at Q&A one of the questions I asked him is is Leno gonna be on the show in the next month this was a month before he retired and and and you know he brought a producer out Nancy shout out to Nancy um and and and they were talking about it and it was a big deal like everybody was talking about this would Jay appear on Dave's show you know and it never happened but that's kind of one of those one of those moments where you know if Jay when he retired at the LA last night of his Tonight Show if he would have come over and sat down yeah on the Ed Sullivan Theater and talked to Dave that same night that is a very interesting uh Dynamic right was there any special setting up that or was it set up pretty easily there was a difference in the old days when mg went back to syndication in 1972 after he left CBS yeah the first I think within the first month that he was on metr media guess who one of his surprised guests was yeah Johnny Carson yeah and it was a surp it was planned of course I mean they knew he was gonna do but they did they had doc seron on as a guest yeah and Dick Carson was mb's director there we go for a bunch of different projects too right like they they worked together yeah exactly and then who walked out but Johnny and that that show is it's icon it's worth it's white and gold you know it's you know the fact that you have these two great guys if you look at mv's um autobiography there's a he has a photograph in his book where he's got a picture from a still a still photograph from that appearance that he made on uh on on M's show in in 1972 this by the way this is my signed copy that I got from her when I met him the first time and he he put the date on it it's from September 18th 198 50 no 40 44 years ago right little over 44 years if there's a fire is that one of the things you're grabbing there too many too many things around I me too brother me too I got so many of them like a sort of like a museum around here yeah how many how many people have talk how many people collect talk show memorabilia I mean that's kind of you know it's true uh I got I got a lot of great pieces around me and and I feel feel like almost an energy from it like that's one of Dave's Bridges I mean I I I I love that stuff and I know that you've got a bunch of stuff there we'll talk about that but let's talk about let's go to books here for a second actually before we go to books I just to just to kind of add to what you were saying if there was a question that I would like a a meaningless question a talk show nerd question that I would ask Johnny Carson one of the one of the contenders would be you really you really seem to enjoy doing a nice walk- on somewhere he did it on Letterman a couple of times on both incarnations of the show in fact his last time we saw him on TV was um he did A Walk On to Leo when they did a run in California and Johnny just seemed so tickled every time he would come on the screen and surprise people it's like the standing ovation he would get every single night wasn't enough but it was a surprise appearance the standing ovation is going to be even that much bigger like it was a a different energy he loved the walk- on did MV as well that's my question oh sure God M MV was on Ste B syndicated show he was on uh as you mentioned David Letterman yeah he was on um a few others that you know that that that escaped my mind did Oprah ever give MV the did did did Merv ever get the Oprah treatment I don't even know if I I saw that if I was when I was researching you know I really I think Oprah was on mer I don't think MV was on Oprah I'm not really yeah that's probably yeah yeah yeah yeah that's probably right but you know Johnny Johnny was no stranger to other people's programs you know he was on with David Frost he was on with dinos Shore 60 minutes he was on with Phil Donahue yeah Absolut on with MV I mean he was on with David Letterman he Walters and and and 60 minutes too from the news side of things right well those were those those were a different kind of appearances those were you know those were kind of the inp you know the barber Walters things on ABC that was sort of like an in-depth thing I'm talking about the variety format you know where you where you're in front of a live audience and come out and you sit down and it's more relaxed another thing talking about being more relaxed you look at the shows today yeah you know they're very you know they're like chopped up into 10 minute segments you look at a talk show from the 60s they go on and on for like 15 and 20 minutes before they break for a commercial today you know they come somebody comes on they plug whatever book they have or record or movie they have and then they're gone next person comes on wasn't like that back in the old days you know you had four five six people sitting you in on a on a on a set all conversing and it was sort of like a cocktail party you know where people were gathering and you put together people who normally wouldn't be comfortable with each other and then you hope that Sparks Fly because that's what that's what makes you know for for for good television so so here's my question I mean right now you just nailed the formula perfectly it's it's so formulaic um and then you look at what Dave's doing and I mean I I don't know if you've seen very much of my next guest needs no introduction on Netflix it's is it's his long form da this is me I've always said this is him playing Tom Snider um and and doing the long form thing and I think I think that's where the puck is going the biggest show in the world is Joe Rogan the average episode is over three hours long long form deep into conversation no commercials at all and substance rather than you know the steak rather than the sizzle uh did MV do you think mve would have done well in a long form environment or do you think he fed off the audience he was kind of that classic Entertainer you know a bridge from yester year into you know the that that live audience it felt like that was his element to me that was when he was in his element but I think he could have tackled anything I think he would have adapted to whatever medium you know he was thrust into yeah you know uh but you know he you know he was a genius and he certainly did well for himself you know and you don't see guys like they don't like them like that anymore they just don't I mean I like I like coar and I like Jimmy Kimmel I watch them you know I kind of switch back and forth depending upon you know who they have on those are my two as well my two as well yeah but I I think when you look at all the classic you know Steve Allen Jack par Johnny Carson murv Griffin I think David Letterman is really the only one who fits into that classic mold he's cut from he's cut from that same mold and a lot of the guys you know they're they're you know they're doing their own thing of course they're very political yeah you know Johnny got he got political he took he took a pot shot who at whoever was in power but he never really he never really took sides neither did Merv right anything is toxic you know as it is today you know same with m in that regard right that's a similarity yeah absolutely well merb had MB had all the great politicians on his show he had Nixon he had Jimmy Carter he had Gerald Ford uh he had he in fact MB was the first talk show host to do a an appearance with a sitting president in the white house uh in 1981 when Ronald Reagan was in office oh there you go is that clip online I gotta see that clip I haven't seen that one I gotta I gotta find that one that's got to be out there on one of the DVD sets m is very friendly MB is very friendly with Nancy Reagan so I'm sure that that's how that came about how that was orchestrated but he did you know he went to the White House and a very very good interview and of course the Democrats they they kind of um objected to the fact that they were giving a republican a whole hour of air time without any rebuttal but they didn't get too they didn't get too political I mean it wasn't anything they talked about what was happening in the news and they talked about their lives and the direction that the country was going it was a very very nice pleasant generic form of enjoyable interview it wasn't anything were they actors at the same time mvin president uh no no M MB got into Motion Pictures through darus day yeah because he was a big band singer yeah dar's day caught his nightclub act in Vegas right and she recommended him to William who was one of the big heads at Warner Brothers so they got him under contract to Warner Brothers and he did he did a movie with he's in a movie with DAR Day By the Light of the Silvery Moon yes he did a whole school about he didn't like being he didn't like movies you know the idea of sitting around waiting for the director to yell you know right right right right the spontaneity of a live audience right and and and it makes sense that he would have transitioned over just like like Johnny did I mean you know they were they were instinctually moving towards their true calling with some pit stops along the way but but like it's is it the same time frame that Reg like would they have gone to the Oscars together and been in the audience together at the same time like was it a similar because they they would have what I'm point is him going to the White House they would maybe connect with broadcaster and president but also they're also kind of from the same from the same business in a similar time well rean Reagan Reagan was a contract player at Warner Brothers in the 30s yeah 30s and into the 40s gotcha and then in 50s Reagan got into television he was the host of Death Valley days yes yes then you know he got you know he was the president of the Screen Actors Guild and that was his foray into politics into Administration that got into into the political Arena and then he became Governor he served two terms of of um he ter served two terms as governor of California you know I think it was 1966 to 70 4 or something like that and then he began making a a run for the White House which he ultimately got you know in 1980 right I don't think I don't think they were I don't think they were at Warner Brothers at the same time I got you no no no no but but the same business and I mean yeah it's probably more like a an older brother even father Heavens um situ you know but but the same business did murv ever have any political aspirations no I don't think so but you know what he would have been great because being the president is sort of like being the head of a big company a big Corporation one of Mer's producers when I was interviewing people for my book said that if you were uh stranded on an island or you were stranded out in the middle of the ocean in a boat MV Griffin would be the guy that you would want to be stranded with because he would figure out a way to get you to safety you know he was a very very Innovative guy you know he could think out any type of his M his Credo was if something isn't broke fix it anyway he was very very good at solving he liked he likeed to solve problems yeah and he said M Brickman would be the guy you'd want you'd want to be uh a drift with because he'd figure out a way to to save you I was gonna get into this before I'll get into it now because I mean yeah and we'll get into his business acument and and what people just don't realize like like imagine uh an extremely clever genius level performer um combined you know kind and and nice and and and and and the good that you would think with the reputation and the Acumen and the net worth of of of a Donald Trump now you know yeah you know very different personality but but there's some similarities there like he is his Acumen is is top shelf now now the biography you held up before um you know compared to your book and I want to talk about your book so so that book was released in what 1980 you said MB MB wrote three on iies this was his principal volume of the one you held up is the one yeah that's this one yep right okay yeah and he did another one that focused on his favorite guests it was called from where I sit and then his final book was making the good life last and that goes up to an including 2000 okay so that was his years uh uh uh covering his career and his years in retirement and you know traveling around the world you know he had a yacht he had property all over the world now M was on the front page of the business uh papers when he did the deal with with Donald Trump yeah he purchased Resorts International in Atlantic City and some property in the Bahamas which made the front page of um in fact I went down to see him at Resorts twice and we saw my friend and I saw him and he came over to our table and sat with us and talked with us and he picked up our dinner tab oh that is a great story right Dave are you listening picked up his come on he picked up his dinner tab what what are we gonna do here never mind um well I gave him a gift I have to point out that I gave him a gift I had a VHS tape of a rare program that he had been on it was a kinoscope yeah it was to video and he was like a kid in a candy store he was like you know they always say bir went ooh and ah you know how good does that feel how good does that feel is that not the greatest feeling in the world that you can kind of give something back to this person that has affected you so much that you could actually say here and it actually have meaning to them that is an incredible incredible actually the way it happened was kind of funny my friend and I M was appearing at Resorts which he owned at the time and his opening app was Margaret waiting who was a great singer her father was Richard waiting and my friend and I tried to get backstage the see M because my my buddy was a big fan of Margaret Whiting and I was a big fan of M and we couldn't get in they wouldn't let us backstage the same and I said I know they said oh he know of course you know him everybody knows him everybody knows M Griffin but what happened was at 1:00 in the morning when we're sitting sitting in the restaurant this was Fourth of July weekend 1992 yeah who walks in but MV Griffin now I had been on the variety Club ton with him a couple of years earlier so I waved to him and I said John I said wipe your mouth I said here Here Comes Mur he didn't believe me I said he's coming he's coming closer wipe your mouth and M comes over and he slaps us on the back hi guys how you doing and he couldn't have been nicer so that amazing I gave him this gift and we talked we took pictures with him and we chatted you know we talked about the main topic of conversation on that occasion was his um lost episodes on CBS because they didn't save a lot of his CBS shows yep they have a lot of Westinghouse shows but very very few maybe a handful of the CBS shows so we we talked about that and then when it came time to pay the bill the uh the wait said he goes he goes you're taken care of and I said what do you mean what do you mean by that he goes he goes the boss picked up your tab Ah that's fantastic yeah what kind of a show did he put on you went and saw him live it was it was a musical show he sang yeah sort of like a coconut Ballroom type format thing and and you know he was a big band singer and he sang a lot of his hits and he sang a couple of songs that he had written himself one was um I'm a big band singer it was a song that murv had had composed himself he performed that and there were other people on the program as well but it was a nice it was a nice night we didn't get home until like 4:30 in the morning you know what I what I think about sometimes is the idea of um I think about some of these guys um or gals as the case maybe doing a run of some sort on Broadway yeah and I just it compels me like crazy like it just it like as opposed to a residency in Las Vegas which I guess has its own you know as well of course but like a run on Broadway I could see a MF Griffin be doing some sort of a run on Broadway a variety show in 1955 he was in Finian's Rainbow okay so he did it before I'm I'm talking about as as MF Griffin as the personality that he kind of became after all of this stuff this is this is before he became yeah Johnny Carson here's another similarity between Carson and Griffin Carson was also on Broadway he was in Tunnel of Love which was a Broadway show and then Johnny was in a film with Connie Frank is called looking for love and Johnny said and he said this many many times on the year he said it was a film that was so bad that they transferred it to flammable NRA stock you know normally you know normally films to preserve them they transfer to the Safety stock yeah he said this was so bad they transferred transferred it to nitrate stock so it would disintegrate that's such a that's such a clever joke right m m was on Broadway though he was again you know that wasn't his thing he had a radio show the first MB Griffin show was actually a musical radio show on ABC yeah that was 57 and then the following year is when he got and you know there was a time when he was around the dials you know you you you turn on the station the various channels at any time of the day and MV Griffin he was on keep talking he was on player hunch he was on the show he was on uh oh God I'm probably leaving out a whole lot of shows where he was either pitching for somebody who was sick or he was you know buying for a you know a job but ultimately he got um player hunch and that was a good sadman game show there's there's there's an episode of to tell the truth which is one of the classic Goodson toddman game shows it's from 1961 and Merv is under contract to them because he was doing player hunch well MV was filling in for the vacation in Bud ker who was the original hosted to tell the truth and on the panel is a young Johnny Carson oh my gosh 1961 before they started their respective talk shows the game show channel runs that from time to time if you ever get a chance to see it watch it because it's yeah interesting to see Johnny he looks like he's a 12-y old kid and MV is All Bright and bubbly and they everybody has dark hair and you know they're skinny and young and full of energy and you know very enthusiastic Johnny was just a step away from being the great Carson at that point I mean that's that's that's early on well he was he was doing he was still doing uh um do you trust your wife right right this is 61 yeah yeah yeah man um so talk about where your book fits into all of this well my book let's see your book and and and when did it come out this came out uh about six years ago six or seven years ago this is called M Griffin show the inside story this is a comprehensive review of the show it's not a biography of Mur Griffin yeah there's a big difference there yeah it's a deep dive I wanted to do I thought that the show was interesting enough to Warrant a book of this size and it's it's like 428 Pages it's not a it's not a slend it's not a slender volume how did you write it was it clinical or did you write it like a thriller no I got the my original concept was to do a book of all the talk show hosts sort of like a um an encyclopedia of everybody no no no Steve Steve if we can figure that out I will be part of that however necessary I will gather forces that is a great idea and then somebody I discovered that somebody had already done it somebody had already beat me to it there's a book called let's talk by Robert Parish yes yes and D David Letterman is in there and Griffin and Johnny Carson and Mike Douglas and Phil Winfrey and WBY Goldberg and talk about a time capsule what a perfect time capsule that book is yeah so I I met I met a guy who um we later became good friends and that was Albert fiser who was Mer's publicist during the Westinghouse period from 65 to 69 yeah and I was at his house one day and I was looking through his archives and he you know he's had this tremendous collection of hundreds and hundreds of fantastic still photographs because he photographed every guest that was on that show yes so on the plane ride home I said you know something I said I just thought I just got a tremendous idea why not do the whole book since the M Griffin show is my number one passion in this whole thing why not do the whole book about uh Griffin yeah make it all about make it all about the M Griffin Show y I started that that and then as they were doing the uh the DVD set I wrote the booklet notes for the uh the mer Griffin show the the 12 dis set of DVDs that came out in 2014 and I wrote the booklet notes for that so a lot of the people that I interviewed I was able to incorporate that into the notes into the liner for that and then and then you know then the book the book came along but uh I got to meet and befriend a lot of people who worked for MV and his producer said to me one day he said you love murf so much he said why the hell didn't you work for him he said you would have been a great pre-show interviewer or a great researcher or somebody you know working in in in that capacity which I would have loved but you know uh you know what this is where this is something Steve Steve this is something that you and I are like really similar in I've been told the same thing recently you know by multiple Letterman staffers and and and uh for me there's no there's absolutely no greater uh compliment you know and that's how I certainly feel I can't imagine it's any different for you and that's something that you know kind of we share and that's that's why you write that book that's why we do this show I say that almost every single week this is why we do the show you are 100% showing why we do the show through your own beautiful story that is fantastic man well thank you appreciate it yeah it was it was fun to do it and it was sort of like a journey and it was a journey that I enjoyed very much because I got to meet a lot of Fascinating People yeah and um you know having I got to interview mv's ex-wife who was very very nice to talk to was very friendly Divorce by the way you know they remained good friends by the way uh Johnny Carson also married to a girl named Joanne who had a very similar Dynamic just yeah well Johnny it used to be a joke in Show Business that Johnny conjugated the name Jo you know Jody Jo Joan Joanna and he broke he broke he broke he conjugated it right exactly okay we had to uh cut it there we're it's a two-parter folks yeah um I don't know if the two-parter is a good idea or if we should just do one last one huge hunk but I'll tell you this a lot of the guests prospective guests are saying oh maybe we do after the holidays or whatever so you know what I'll take it to barter I'll take it takes the pressure off a little bit but we do have some good things coming up uh but anyway um so just as you can see a brother from another mother Steve is just amazing uh snag his book uh MV Griffin the Inside Story Steve Randi um yeah just fantastic stuff fantastic stuff this has been um another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum coincidentally I'm Mike Chism thanks and good night thank you and good night overcoat and Underpants