Carson The Magnificent

hey it's me John Beckerman and you are watching the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum and coincidentally I am Mike Chisum that's your bit right that's your bit that's my bit doing your bit welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum before uh we get going on this episode today Happy Thanksgiving to it's mostly an American audience that listen to or watch or at least are are are are brave enough to admit that they listen to or watch this show uh and it's Thanksgiving down there of course I'm Canadian uh as as Paul would be uh fond of saying early Harvest we celebrated our Thanksgiving last month uh by the way happy birthday to Paul Schaefer um on uh Thanksgiving itself Thanksgiving Thursday is Paul's birthday so happy birthday to him um I really enjoy this episode a lot because we are focusing on Carson the Magnificent Bill Z's book now I I want to be very very clear about something here uh not a Carson expert by any stretch of the imagination uh Mark maloff is Mark maloff hosted the Carson podcast uh for years uh hundreds of episodes a beautiful definitive body of work in itself um this episode is not uh it's more anecdotal it's it's it's it's a couple of people who have come on here uh We Have Allison lips television historian uh friend of our show uh and and and she has come on to talk about her perspective when it comes to Johnny we she read the book uh as well recently and then Rob Kates Rob Kates runs as the admin of a bunch of Facebook groups that have tens of thousands of members um um the letter the David Letterman fans uh Facebook group that's Rob Kat's group uh he's also got one about late night Johnny Carson he's got one about um um you know the rat pack as well again tens of thousands of members and and and and just it's it's three people getting together who just read uh Bill Z's book Carson the Magnificent and are just want to talk about it and now this book here I want to be very very clear um a lot of people might not know the history of this book you'll get that in the forward uh Bill zi uh writer for all sorts of Publications back in the day unabashed fan um admirer of Johnny Carson and the fact that he signed this book deal so many years ago um around the time of Carson's retirement you know he uh he had uh the one interview with Johnny after Johnny retired and and and and so a lot of folks my age who have been looking forward to this book to come out for a long time everyone was talking about when's the zi book gonna come out when's the zi book coming coming out I think Bill Carter and I talked about that uh when on one of his appearances on this show so it finally came out unfortunately bill passed away and and and one of his collaborators Mike Thomas uh finished the book and released it so the book is out and it's interesting hearing the reaction from folks about this book here's the thing that I'll say about it are there other definitive more definitive um volumes about Johnny Carson that have been released yeah there I I think it's safe to say that there are a couple of different biographies um but for those who don't know Johnny the way that say my dad's generation knew Johnny um I think this is this book is a fantastic entry point because it is written from the perspective of a fan um there's a lot of very cool tidbits in this book and I enjoy them uh I enjoyed it immensely and so Allison and Rob and I got together and we said let's have an episode where we talk about yes so there's lots of Letterman in this episode because we talk about comparisons between the two we talk about because I mean you know if you're if you if you do enjoy uh David Letterman you will know that he absolutely was inspired by and and in many respects his career um the responsibility of his career can fall back to Johnny Carson Johnny Carson um you know really at the end of the day was the inspiration for Dave to move from Indianapolis to California um and then not only that in that uh building of his career he built built a relationship with Johnny Carson to the point where more than a mentor somebody who who gave Dave uh his shots Dave spent a lot of Time guest hosting the Tonight Show um with Johnny Carson and and I mean so so this is a fun episode where we just get a chance to talk about this book um I highly recommend it for anybody who loves this stuff or enjoys this stuff certainly anybody who watches or listens to this show I think that you will enjoy Carson the Magnificent uh by Bill zi um it's a it's it's a really neat book and I just really enjoy the conversation that we have here with Allison and Rob so um without further Ado please enjoy uh the conversation about Carson the Magnificent and more with myself and Rob and Allison Allison and Rob it is great to have you here um I you know we were talking just before IIT record here about how we all have our different little perspectives on this thing that we love um you know of course this is the Letterman podcast but with the Letterman podcast it spreads out to all sorts of all sorts of different things Dave has never ever shied away uh with his gratitude you know it's funny we're recording this on Thanksgiving he has never shied away with his gratitude um and reverence of course um for for for the mentorship both afar and then directly uh with Johnny Carson and uh Carson the Magnificent came out a few weeks ago um Bill's book finally finally after all that time came out in andison when when when we I knew we wanted to do a show on this and I wanted to talk to both of you specifically on it Allison um you know I haven't ever shied away from the fact that you are uh a television historian um but in a in in a generation that's looking at it now whereas Rob and I are more it's in the rearview mirror and we like to focus on the things uh of the past and whatnot and you like to take some of these things I mean Johnny Carson he retired in '92 93 yes um and and and you know Rob and I remember that very very very well Rob of course uh you know you've you know you're in television yourself a director for for for news in Michigan things like that but but at the end of the day and give us the call sign Rob what station are you uh are you affiliated with it's wlns it's the CBS affiliate in laning Michigan so I direct their newscasts right on very cool and um and and then also of course the admin of uh Facebook pages that have tens of thousands of members to do with late night television to do with David Letterman the David Letterman fans uh of course uh you know being a chief one but also Frank Sinatra and this the the you know these um amazing Main Stays of yester year uh all of us have this um you know this love for for culturally significant um impactful uh broadcasters of the past we have this reverence we want to talk about it car the Magnificent came out all of us had an interest in it all of us have read the book already and uh and and we're excited for the book Allison one of the things that you said to me um was you know as you read the book because I mean you've read I mean the volumes of text that you have read in becoming a historian uh for this thing one of the things that you said to me was the making of the book was almost more interesting than the book itself and I loved I loved how you said that um maybe we can into it right here what did you two think of Carson the Magnificent let's start with you Allison it's a great book if you just want to walk down memory lane or if you haven't read anything on Carson before I felt like it Focus I have it right next to me I felt like it focused mostly on his marriages more than on the show so that like we we know he wasn't the best husband in the world so I didn't find that to be Illuminating anything new and a lot of the book is about the story of the book how Bill zema was writing this book it's was going to be his life's work and then he passed away before he could complete it so his friend Mike Thomas came in and finished it I haven't read any of Bill's books before but I have read Mike's book on Phil Hartman yep I like his writing style but the two of them have different writing styles so Mike had to come clean at the beginning MB fourth right about listen we have two different writing styles like 90% of this is Bill but I'm writing it in my style the remaining 10% mhm which I mean it's fine we know the story but again the books partially enjoyable because of that story like this is the culmination of a man's life yes I wanted to get your perspective first because Rob and I have a very different perspective on this book Rob okay so Rob who has so much reverence for this uh for this thing that we love Johnny Carson in particular a lot of reverence here how long have we been waiting for the for the zi book to come out I was waiting five years for this book okay and that's you from your perspective I mean years ago this book was announced years and years and years ago yes and it finally finally came out and again um you know it's one of those things Rob yeah let's get your perspective on that Rob well yeah it has definitely been a long wait um to be frank I thought thought it would be a longer book um I think it's about 300 Pages yeah so you know I I kind of thought it might be more um indepth um it it's very good I I haven't finished it completely I'm about halfway through it but I'm uh but I I really I'm enjoying it and it does have a lot of information that I didn't know about but if you want to know about Johnny there are so many other books and I kind of it's nice because I think that there's been kind of a Renaissance in an interest in Johnny in the past probably 10 years or so because there was the Henry bushin book that came out the guy they called bombastic bushkin and that is a different perspective because he actually I mean he actually worked for Johnny as his lawyer he was his tennis partner he was his best friend he was his Confidant so for 18 years Bush can work directly for Johnny and so that was kind of a kind of a warts and all book and then this one by zi is more of a people have said it's more of a fanboy book yeah so that's that's a big difference there yeah I mean I I've read the bush book and I feel like they kind of complement each other but they also cover a lot of the same events from different perspectives yeah and I mean the the reason that I um connect so well with this book and I think it's it's probably obvious you know I I I um as as the host of this show uh unabashedly excitedly I talk about how we are a celebration of the greatest body of broadcast work in history that of David Letterman and Company you can't you can't do that without being an Enthusiast of this stuff and and and Z yes you took the show back from Darren yeah I took the show back sorry Darren does this make you Jay Leno oh no oh no how long have you been waiting to say that oh you've been sitting in the bush with that one you've been waiting no it was five seconds ago the last time Allison was on uh Darren guest guest hosted um you know at the end of the day I I look at zi who who you know a writer in his own um you know would write for Rolling Stone and I think Esquire and and and other major publications of of the day uh but had this I believe he represented a lot of people in the sense that he worshiped Johnny Carson that Johnny Carson was a Mainstay in his DNA um you know and and and Dave would talk about this and I feel the way that Dave talks about Johnny that's how I feel towards Dave you know he was the constant he was the guy at the end of the day um who who who would tuck you in and and and basically kind of lead you off uh to end the day uh talking about the headlines of the day talking to people uh within entertainment or show business of the day day and and and and really created the blueprint for uh for for for late night talk shows in in in how we even view them now it was Johnny Carson who did it but he also did it in a way that is so much bigger than I think Allison people of your generation people who watch television now um you know think about that like you think about appointment television and it almost doesn't exist anymore Johnny was a guy that would get tens of Millions of people watching every single night communal moments where the next morning when you go to work it's one of the things that you would talk about he would create that every single day it was such a big big thing and and and Bill who was a a writer worshiped Johnny he was a huge fan of of Johnny and and to be able to and I I just I could relate to his writing because he would talk about these meetings that he would have with Johnny and uh one of the things that I did appreciate about the book that I do find different than any of the other materials that I've read is the fact that he got a chance to talk to Johnny after retirement and that is a very rare occurrence Johnny kind of um disappeared from public and you didn't hear very much about him afterwards uh that's the stuff in the book that I found most compelling I don't know about either of you two but that's the stuff that I was I was I was ravenous for I wanted to know uh some of these stories about Johnny after retirement how he viewed things how he viewed life uh that was some of the stuff that really really impacted me how about you to but that was also like the first 50 pages and then it veers off into other things that's why like Rob said I thought this was going to be a much bigger book than it is I'm was thinking it was going to be more like the upcoming Lauren book yep which is a 600 page to uh so that was fascinating but that was not the focus of the book that was the intro to the book the book does jump around from time period to time period I also think part of the challenge in writing the book was Johnny was not an open book all we really know is his appearances on The Tonight Show and his marriages because those was made tabloid headlines that's what we're working with and then one of his sons I think it was Chris mentioned like yeah he wasn't a great father I still loved him but he was giving his all to the nation and there wasn't much left for the kids and his wives uh Rob the uh I I think you're probably the same as me when it comes to the idea of of of the the fact that Johnny did have a life after the show but it was not a public life at all and it was something that we all wanted even when he signed off he said you know I hopefully will be able to find something that uh where I can come back and see you and whatnot and it never really happened I mean the only time it ever happened was on Dave show yeah definitely yeah he was he was on Dave show he had the um I think it was 1993 he had the uh the Kennedy Center Honors and so that was that was televised and Doc was on there they had the University of Nebraska marching band on there that came out that and played Johnny's theme song so he enjoyed that but Johnny went out on top and that's what he wanted to do he he knew that nothing else could compare to his body of work and he had many many opportunities I heard that uh somebody pitched him an idea to do a show about animals because he loved having Joan Embry on the show and loved having Jim Fowler on the show and after retirement it was said that he went to Africa on a safari with Jim Fowler and but he he said no to that obviously but he had many different things that were pitched to him but yeah just like you I'm I'm curious about what he did after retirement uh we hear a little bit about his his yacht he had a yacht called saren Getti that was 130 feet long and so he spent a lot of time on that yacht Sharon Getty named after that part in Africa which he loved and and another thing when he went to Africa this shows his intelligence he learned Swahili when he went to Africa so he could he could communicate with the people there and he took a trip to Russia and he learned some Russian so it people sometimes don't realize the depth of intelligence that Johnny had yes he was a great Entertainer he was a very funny guy he's a great comedian but he was an also a very intelligent guy and very well-rounded I mean he loved astronomy so he loved having Carl Sean on the show he loved he was an avid drummer he just loved jazz music and he loved drumming and so so many times he had uh Buddy Rich on the show and and there are just like endless YouTube videos of Buddy Rich on the show that are that are just Priceless so uh he loved tennis he had a tennis court across the street from his house he he had a tunnel underneath his house and then you'd come up and you'd be at the tennis court so uh yeah when he was when he was living in uh Malibu at Point Doom up on the up on the uh Bluff overlooking the Pacific Ocean so yes like you I was very curious about his what he did in retirement it mentioned in the book that a couple of his writers um M Holland and Barry they got a chance to go on his yacht they they got to see the serengetti and and so did David Letterman Letterman has talked about that a couple times about what a Monumental experience that was for him especially for Letterman being in being able to uh be on that yacht with Johnny yeah yeah I uh I also actually I wrote down here in my in my notes Here the mahand mahand and Barry on the yacht with an exclamation point was the note note I put on there and and the idea like um you know after retirement and and Peter Lali talks about this if you watch the uh the tribute show that uh the tribute late show that that that that David Letterman and Company put on um in 05 uh about a week after the passing of of Johnny Carson and I highly recommend it if you go to uh you can find it online and um you know it's in pieces from different places the definitive place to see the tribute show uh that uh the tribute Late Show to Johnny Carson um is on Don Giller Channel now Don Giller has a compilation uh series I believe it's seven parts and it's um it's it's talk show it's the talk show compilation and basically the it's every talk show host you could think of um and their history with David Letterman's Productions from late night all the way to the end of of late show and there's one that um focuses on all of Johnny's appearances um and and uh and and I think it's the last one that uh um that with Johnny that focuses on Johnny that has um everything to do with late show so it's as soon as Dave left CBS or NBC went to CBS and Johnny's last real appearance on TV was on Late Show with David Letterman and uh when Dave went up to California he came out uh on stage was going to read the top 10 list now now here's where I I get conflicting stories I've talked to people who were there and there were some people who say Johnny had no voice he had lren gittis that night and then there are some people who said uh yeah no you can even hear Johnny talk a little bit in that exchange just a little teeny tiny bit you can hear him talk it had nothing to do with lren J he was overcome with emotion he came out Dave got him to sit at the desk he sat at the desk the Ovation went on and on and on and on it's been you know years or 18 months whatever it was since Johnny has signed off and um he was so overcome that he couldn't talk so I've heard both stories um about about that and I don't know which is true which isn't but yeah the idea of of going on that yacht uh Baran mahand and and and uh and other people too as well Rory Ros Garden was on here last week and he talked about how romano and and Phil Rosenthal got a chance to go and hang out I think that's who it was um got to hang out on the yacht and that's one of the things that he envies in life is that you know he's had some Johnny Carson moments but the fact that they got to go and have lunch with him on the yacht was a was a huge thing um Rob talk about like I mean because I again with Facebook you see with your Facebook groups you see the activity that are going on in this there's still a contingent of people after all of these years it's astounding YouTube didn't exist back then um you know really at the end of the day I talks about the very first Tonight Show and and years worth of Carson's material doesn't exist anymore they were literally videotaped over uh or lost or thrown away first 10 years the first 10 years you know and and and I mean doesn't exist but yet there is still this love for Johnny that this reverence for Johnny because that's how big of a star he was actually this is a good one for maybe for both of you I have been trying I've been racking my brain to try and find you know uh I'm Canadian but I understand the SAT comparison questions you know this is to that what this is to that I'm trying to figure out who we can to the modern audience compare Johnny Carson to I don't know if there is anybody I mean he was the biggest star on the planet literally tens of millions of people would watch him every night who is a comparison in today's standards for Johnny Carson we're too Fred you don't know we're too fractured like what do you mean by we're too fractured Allison we all have found the niches of things we watch so there aren't any events where we get together together watch them communally Grant we're all in our houses but we know water cooler talk we talk about in my classes that doesn't exist anymore because it used to be like oh I watched Friends last night or I watch All in the Family depending on what decade you're in and you would talk about that at the water cooler and now it's more oh did you watch that no you should and we're recommending things to each other and we all have watch lists where it's like yeah let's be honest not watching what you just told me to head to my watch list there's so much content out there incredible how much things are fractured definitely so the closest that we get at least in the United States is the Super Bowl mhm but that's not even in the category it's like apples and tables like yeah they're both objects or they're both TV shows but they're not category like what they both have carbon like yeah yeah it's not the same thing I mean you know the uh the Academy Awards they say you know which Johnny hosted a few times I mean that's a that's a communal thing where a lot of people get together and watch it but I I'm a little num of that even still I don't know I don't I don't know if that's the cas but I'm trying to think of a star like like back then I mean Frank Sinatra Taylor Swift I mean is that is that would that be a would that be a comparison I don't know like like people see how ter I think I think it's safe to say most people can understand how big Taylor Swift is now I mean the ecosystem that she has is just is astounding that's an interesting comparison I think that might be a good one Again Taylor Swift is a musical artist so it probably more appropriate to compare that to Beetle Mania than it would be to um like get curling under the blankets and watching Johnny Carson before you go to bed oh yeah no I said I said Frank Sinatra and I I said Frank on purpose because because Rob I mean you know you've also got the the Frank Sinatra Facebook group that has tens of thousands of people who who who who still have this reverence for Frank because at the time I mean Frank and Johnny it might be safe to say that Frank and Johnny were the two biggest stars on Earth is that would you would you say that that would be oh yeah oh yeah and and it said um I think it was in bushkin's book that it talked about how very seldom was Johnny overwhelmed or Star Struck but he was by Frank Sinatra Johnny had such reverence for for Frank and and it's a generational thing yeah when Johnny was growing up he he loved Frank's music and he um yeah so that he was very rarely just blown away by people but he was kind of intimidated and Frank had asked him to he asked Johnny to uh give a speech at Ronald Reagan's inauguration and Johnny knew he he couldn't really say no to Frank Sinatra but it's uh and and Frank hosted Johnny show but it was only once and he didn't do a monologue he came out and sang but uh you know there have been so many incredible guest host of Johnny's show since he had so much time off but yeah definitely as you said Mike it's just it was so different with Johnny Carson it was appointment television people would talk about it around the water cooler and back then I mean if you're talking about like the 1970s which was really his Peak he I mean there were three networks and that was it and he ruled and there were so many people that came in and tried to topple him off of that throne but but he was number one and it's when you look at his 1980 contract they NBC knew that he was just a cash cow for that Network they knew that they had to throw everything at him tons of vacation time tons of money they trimmed the show from 90 minutes down to 60 minutes which I think was kind of too bad because when you when you watch the 90 minute shows oh those were spectacular some of those 90minut shows they just they were so act with entertainment as long as you had good guests and he really he did have outstanding guests but if it was a 90minut show he could have a musical guest that would do a couple songs Plus have time to talk with Johnny for Segment he'd have like four or five guests on there he had plenty of time for the monologue for a comedy piece at the desk um those 90minut shows were really something special and and I think if people like Johnny they need to look at the at the shows from the 1970s especially when you first moved to Burbank like 1972 73 74 and there are some full episodes of those on YouTube and they're just they're fantastic there even there are some full episodes from New York on there too and and yes most of them from the New York era 1962 to 72 most of them were recorded over because videotape was was expensive and they didn't really think about archiving things back then but um it's not 100% of the shows that were recorded over but I don't know what the percentage is 95% but it's yeah there's not many from that F the first 10 years no you know go ahead we're lucky we even have audio from the very first sure show starring video it was just audio yeah and he was introduced by Groucho marks yeah yeah and and I mean um again different time Peri period at the time but uh but back then uh one of the things that I was fascinated about was even back then when the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson started of course Johnny took over for for for Jack par we'll get to Jack par here in a minute here in a minute because I mean Jack par is a legend in his own uh right and it's interesting you know they both died within a year of each other uh par died in 04 Johnny Carson died in 05 and and um you know another interesting thing out of the book I don't know if this is mentioned in in Bush's book I I kind of don't think so Jack paron and and uh Johnny Carson enjoyed an email relationship after the fact you know in the near near the end during the yacht years he and and Jack had a had a had a um a relationship uh via email and they would go back and forth with each other but but the idea that that wild to me because yes I know when they both died but these are people who I'm used to seeing on black and white television and the fact they were communicating through email in the early 2000s yeah it's like oh okay that's what I thought too I thought that was totally Charming I was tickled I was tickled by that um but but at the end of the day to go back to to to Rob's point you know grou show marks the first 15 minutes of The Tonight Show um because it was more than 90 minutes for a for for for an extended period of time at the beginning because the first 15 minutes would only be broadcast to New York and so they would have a kind of a mini show an intro show and you had at first Groucho marks or Ed mcmah or people would would would come in and do things to kind of introduce the show just for those people and then the rest of the country would see kind of when the the show started 15 minutes later but even into and I forget what year it was uh I might have it written down here but the idea that it wasn't until yeah 1967 so he started the show in what 62 right 62 yes and it wasn't until 1967 that the entire country got to see The Tonight Show the same night west of West of Michigan I think it was or or or whatever they saw the show the next day they got to see you know the previous nights the next day it was the East Coast that got to see you know the the first run of it but then after that they didn't have the technology available to show the show to to to to broadcast the show that same night until 1967 like you think about it and that's not that long ago I was born in 76 okay so that's less than a decade before what we're talking about here technology and I mean Rob I mean well gosh Rob you you're television directly the the the technical uh Evolution that you have seen in your career is astounding and you think about that but yet at the same time Johnny was still that big of a star in that commun we talk about this communal stuff um I I found that astounding as well that it was 1967 when that happened yeah yeah a lot of people don't realize ized that that The Tonight Show for a while it was 1 hour and 45 minutes and then got trimmed down to an hour 30 and then in 1980 it got trimmed down to 60 minutes but uh yeah and um so for those first 15 minutes oftentimes Johnny would not participate a lot of times it was just Ed and Skitch Henderson the music director and just kind of killing time and just bsing and talking about whatever and and uh yeah so back then and this is a weird thing to think about too back then a lot of the local TV stations they would have 15minute newscasts and that was it and so then they did they expanded to 30 minute newscast a lot of them and then uh yeah so as you said 1967 finally the the show became 90 minutes and and 90 minute shows were were more popular back then I was thinking about it how many 90 minute shows are there today I mean I know that there's Saturday Night Live I know that there's CBS Sunday morning but there are very few and far between but uh yeah there all 12 hours of The Today Show The Today Show yeah that's right a lot a lot of time yeah yeah um and I mean yeah programs that brought that have news attached to them but you think about actual entertainment shows uh yeah not not very many at all like um my wife and I enjoy Survivor I understand why CBS would uh extend that show out because when you're doing a reality show you have so much footage that is it it just you know that never sees the light of day and it's pretty easy to cut um you know a reality show into a 90-minute deal and if you've got one that's getting ratings these days uh you know why not I can I can kind of see that but it it that's kind of the reason that they did that is it it's it's a cost-saving measure um in in many respects to do that you don't see you you see very few shows that go beyond an hour these days and um and this is something that dominated you know a 90minut deal dominated for um what was it 20 out of 30 20 out of Johnny's 30 years were were 90-minute show something like that or close to that something like that oh yeah 18 years yeah yeah first 18 years yeah so it is amazing that the technology you think about and then if you go back even further than Johnny when you look at the really early TV shows like like your show of shows or Texaco Star Theater shows like that they were live because they didn't have videotape so Sid Caesar and and uh and Carl Riner and people like that they had to get used to working live without a net because they were not going to videotape things and then show it the next day so when you think of the of the talent of people like that and and their writing staffs were incredible I mean Woody Allen wrote for some of those early TV shows Mel Brooks so um it's incredible when you think about the technology with that how it changed like from 1950 to 1970 huge changes yeah Alison what were you gonna say I don't remember what I say I was listening to Rob uh yeah I just um the book that's one of the things and and to capture the spirit of the book here to go back um that was one of the things that I think I appreciated the most it reminded me um of of of what television used to be and and and I think um and I'm I'm not lamented I'm not necessarily saying it's oh go ahead what were you gonna say I remember what I was going to say based you so you said what television used to be we also didn't address that yes there were 90 minute shows but even the 60-minute shows then are longer than what an hour show would be now because of commercials if you're watching an hour long show there's 20 minutes of commercial if you're watching an extended version of Survivor or the voice there's 40 minutes of commercials and yes there were commercials then but there were fewer commercials a lot of the commercials depending on how far back you go were part of the show I'm sure most of us have seen the Johnny and the Alpo yeah which was part of of the show it was Ed McMahon doing a commercial the dog wouldn't behave so Johnny became the dog yeah that was common that was just part of Ed's job to do those commercials and yeah things have changed so much and yeah you look at the commercial time in TV now one thing I think of is the TV shows used to have these elaborate opening credit sequences and now they don't have those you look at like for instance Happy Days from back in the 70s they're opening credits sequence was great it showed all the different actors and they supered their names on there and it's you just don't have that anymore and they don't have time for that because they have to pack in so many commercials yeah um and I mean anybody who watches uh you know some of the old go to Don Gill's Channel or or or um you know it's funny because the official Letterman YouTube channel doesn't incapsulate this as much because when they'll show a clip on there many times it's it's one segment uh you know and the beginning middle end of the video is is is is is the segment of of say an actor who might be in the news right now or or you know somebody who passed away they'll show a segment of Dave talking to that um you know to that to that subject um even if they put both segments on there they'll put one segment on then a quick flash uh you know where the commercial would be and then they put the other one on and it seems like a full clip well if you go back to late night with David Letterman so if you go to Don Gill's Channel and you watch these things unedited even the interview segments were there was time to actually have a conversation you know and and and even with late night it was starting to become more truncated compared to Johnny and Rob to your point earlier I totally totally agree I mean listening Johnny was the ultimate conversationalist he was and he would make every conversation entertaining and like the book said all he had to do was a was was a look to the camera he would look into the camera like a knowing look where he would slightly break the fourth wall That's thing but but he would converse with these people Jack Benny that's a Jack Benny influence okay go into that a little bit because again we're talking about Johnny Carson to a generation of people who are like okay yeah yeah yeah talk about Jack Benny for a second there Alison they've pretty sure Johnny has acknowledged that at some point where it's he would look into the camera and like Jack Benny would do Jack Benny was a huge influence on Johny John absolutely yeah um so I'm not really sure where you want me to go with this Mike well no I don't know you know you're the historian in the fact that you know like Jack Benny again was gigantic as well like he was a a iconic at that point in television he's the guy you know you know again let's go back to the SAT thing um Jack Benny was to Johnny Carson what Johnny Carson was to David Letterman I think that's a fair fair fair Fair assessment yes also when we're going back to Jack Benny and George Burns and all of those people were also going back to Vaudeville in the early instances of Television that were heavily Vaudeville they were alive and that's why when I was reading the book I did not realize that the Tonight Show with starring Johnny Carson wasn't live for most of its run because I'm used to um television at that point in time being live or being recorded on film like I Love Lucy because well I love and respect Johnny when it comes to the tonight's show I'm more of a Steve Allen person yeah which his show was live we got 90 minutes we've talked about this before the things he was doing Steve was doing to kill time Letterman was doing because look at what we're doing on NBC's dime we're wasting air time so but getting back to Jack Benny I think it's like the early Vaudeville influence Jack Benny Johnny Carson because Johnny Carson also is partially because he was on television for 30 years but he well The Tonight Show for 30 years but he's the bridge between the two eras I don't think there's anyone else who lasted that long on television sure Steve Allen popped up on PBS in the 90s with meeting of the minds but that was hardly relevant to the majority of people yeah definitely I mean Je Benny was really Johnny Carson's hero I do know that and then it as Mike was saying it's like each generation a lot of times they admired the generation that came before them David Letterman looked up so much to Johnny Carson and we know how Jimmy Kimmel idolizes David Letterman he really ever since he was a little kid he just idolized David Letterman and uh I mean when Johnny was in college he wrote a a term paper that was all about how to write comedy and he referenced Jack Benny a lot in there and also Fred Allen who is another um well-known Radio Star back in the day my my Dad loved Fred Allen he my dad was born in 1931 so he would talk to me about the 1940s when when Jack Benny and Fred Allen were very very popular on the radio so uh yeah and then people like that people like Fred Allen or or Jack Benny they were influ infuenced by vaudville and you yeah it's like every generation kind of Builds on it and yes they do borrow some things uh Johnny borrowed some of his things from people who came before him but uh it's it's fascinating to look at the history of all that and and definitely How Far We've Come yeah I'm really glad you brought up the uh the idea of these Bridges and they are all like like these long standing hosts are all bridges for between eras um you know you you you you look at what and I love that Alex thank you for thank you for noting that the the idea of bridging from live to as technology increases um you know the shows change and and and and The Tonight Show uh went through Monumental changes and and and and then of course Letterman did the same thing and then you know he omage Johnny and then uh to to Rob that's exactly right um I was astounded listening to um uh the Strike Force 5 podcast and I highly highly recommend that it's still I I I I popped it in when I was making a drive uh a long drive uh recently I listened to a couple of the episodes again the Strike Force 5 uh podcast was uh the the five main hosts of of today during the writer strike the recent last year's writer strike it was uh you know John Oliver uh Cole bear Fallon Seth Meyers and Jimmy Kimmel and they did a podcast together the benefits went to um you know to the writers who were who were striking at the time and David Letterman was on one of those episodes and it astounded me that none of the current stars of of late night today um had had any encounters with Johnny Carson on his show and um what astounded Me by that was Dave was kind of surprised by that like you could almost you could almost hear the surprise in Dave's voice it felt you know because he was like okay well you you all met Johnny right or any of you on Johnny show and all of them were like no none of us were I mean oldest one is what Steven coar who's what like 60 yeah something like that so he wouldn't have been on Carson Show unless he was one of those precocious children yeah I mean I mean like I think I was trying to think about this because Rory was talking about that with Ray Romano Ray Romano was on Carson you know Ellen degenerous was on Carson um there are still people who are in the main state today who are who are in the in the Lexicon that that that were there but none of them were our late night hosts currently and it's but the reverence is there you know Conan has this reverence that was another thing that was surprising in the book to me um was that uh one of the things that I loved was reading and man I would love Conan to talk about this and I don't know like I mean I've I've listened to and followed Conan quite quite closely I mean you can't you can't uh see it all or hear it all these days there's too much content as somebody said earlier but uh the idea that you know this Infamous time where NBC promised him The Tonight Show in five years when that announcement was made in ' 04 or whatever it was Conan had a call with Johnny Carson about that yeah and and and uh you know it talks about in the book how how how um you know Conan probably earnestly in my mind it's earnestly because of the reverence that he had for Johnny and The Tonight Show in the institution and he said I'll take care of the franchise for for you and Carson had some sort of a sarcastic quit back oh yeah some franchise or something like it was something yes and also I think would be a remiss for me with mentioning con O'Brien and Johnny Carson without the Simpsons story of when Johnny Carson was on The Simpsons Johnny asked Conan for directions out of the parking lot and he gave the wrong directions yeah I love that story that's a great story but have you either of you heard that story before about Conan talking to Johnny when it was announced that he was going to get The Tonight Show was that in any of the other I that was the first I had ever heard of that I probably heard it about that at one point but then also I know that Conan did he never did Johnny's show but he did get a chance to meet Johnny in 1993 right around the time when Conan was uh doing his late night show when he was filling uh uh Letterman shoes so so he he has it was at some kind of an event and birthday I think I think it was Bob R's birthday party yeah yeah it was yeah so so yeah Conan had to give a bit of a speech and they basically said you're opening up for Johnny so Conan just go out and say a few words and then Johnny will go after you and Conan's like hey no pressure there um you know what go ahead Alison yeah I think Conan may have mentioned it at the time when he got The Tonight Show on Late Night that was the time when I was first discovering it but I don't think he would have gone into details out of respect for Johnny just like oh I spoke to him yeah no way there's no way uh and and and I mean I I listen to his podcast now um Johnny or Conan I should say if you want to hear the there's a really great story that he tells about uh about The Simpsons about the time on The Simpsons when Johnny Carson showed up um because the thing is Johnny loved writer rooms and there's a there's there's a there's something I want to get to when it comes to the writer room don't don't let me forget the writer room comment that came out of the book uh that I wanted to wanted to throw out there but Johnny loved writers rooms and he hadn't he hadn't been on TV for x amount of time uh he shows up to The Simpsons to uh to to to to record the piece that he did there and and he hung out in the writer room and I think Conan tells the story on Conan BR needs a friend I believe it's on the episode that David Letterman appeared on and he tells the story about how Johnny shows up and this is before he leaves and and and con gives him the wrong directions you know he shows up and he was so happy to be there and I think he said he had a carton of cigarettes and he just sat there and talked to the writers and they talked and they had a fantastic time talking with Johnny Carson and I just I found that extremely um extremely endearing but yeah the idea that uh I would love to that that that the idea that um you know when this Infamous time was happening late shift 2 you know late shift late shift one the original Late Shift obviously Johnny very much involved in that the idea of late shift 2 that Johnny was even even had an inkling of of that before it happened you know that five-year deal uh I'm so curious what Johnny would have thought of the idea of oh yeah you're getting the Tonight Show in five years and and uh I know Dave talked about it he made fun of that on the air at the time and and certainly the chicken came home to roost where where where um in 2010 when all the stuff went down 29 2009 2010 I mean but the idea that Johnny actually had an inkling of that before he passed uh I found that I don't know I found that an interesting part of the story that hasn't been told before I had either of you heard that before I i' had never heard it you said maybe he talked about on late night um maybe might have talked about having a conversation he wouldn't have mentioned like it would have been something like I spoke to Johnny and he was very supportive about this and I appreciate him reaching out or something like that it wouldn't have been even the little bit of detail we got here yeah well and also we need to mention as far as Conan I'm sure you guys have heard he's going to be the host of the Oscars next year so he's going to be following in the footsteps of other late night hosts like David Letterman and like Johnny Carson and so he's going to do an outstanding job I mean he's hosted award shows before I I think he did the Emmys but but yeah he's going to be great as an Oscar host I I thought the same thing and I immediately went back to the Emmys um it's funny because the Emmys was an example of when Conan became White hot and NBC was like we cannot lose him we cannot repeat history uh you know and and and and Johnny in my opinion Johnny was was was kind of pushed out of his job uh with a bunch of the circumstances that were around there and and and as Peter Lali said you know um you know Johnny was fond of saying he didn't want to stay too long at the fair um and and and so um I believe he was kind of pushed out and NBC was basically doing the same thing to Jay Leno but saying in five years we're going to do it the reason being Conan was hosting the emys and absolutely you know Grand Slam home run performances uh becoming white hot having this and this is before team KOCO Team Coco didn't show up until he was ousted like he was he was just white hot and and we a whole go ahead we can have a whole conversation on how Team Coco fans are different from original Conan O'Brien fans because there is a difference we'll talk about that like like yeah talk about that so I started watching Conan when I was 10 which was well before Team Coco even was on anyone's mind MH so I remember I would be she was recording Conan on VHS because we didn't have a DVR yet Y and watching it before I go to school while I was eating breakfast and there are Conan sketches from that time period that I can reference whereas people who became fans from either Team Coco or the podcast have no idea I remember being in college at the time and people were rallying around Conan O'Brien like he got screwed over by NBC and Jay Leno this that the other thing and they were making it like a generational issue and I'm like they're both Boomers like this is not a generational issue this is how the entertainment business works and NBC miscalculated and Jay has yet to figure out that he is not making cars and treats the entertainment business like he going to work at a factory and will do what the boss says because it's what's best for the company and people were making it something that it wasn't and I'm also finding that if you discovered Conan through the podcast a lot of them have those people may have never seen even the TBS show mhm and there's also a lack of curiosity on going to explore things from the past like I do I think we all do but there's a lot more past for me because I did not grow up watching David Letterman in the 80s I was born in 91 um so there are people who are fans who maybe Die Hard fans who are missing half the story yeah I I you know what I love that you you were the first person to kind of point that out to me Allison and I I'd never it never even occurred to me because like Rob and I we saw Conan's entire run all the way you know all the way up um you know to to to the current day but I love the fact that you know again there's all these little echos um in this show here constantly I mean even I just I just even saw uh zenman Jason zenman who who uh you know New York Times comedy critic uh wrote a letterman the last giant of late night I just even saw it the other day it was to do with uh with with the new pants store oh by the way worldwide pants there it is represent right there right one of the new one of the new David Letterman shirts um that you can get at the worldwide Pants Store and I mean while we're mentioning that because we also just mentioned how old I was the letter the um jacket I'm wearing is from ' 09 that's the year I graduated High School oh there you go yeah you got your worldwide pants jacket that's awesome it's been a few people who uh who since the the Incarnation of this show have ended up now with with with pants jackets and I celebrate every single time that you get one it's a it's a it's a great feeling Rob we got to figure out a way you're we for a CBS affiliate you should get a pants jacket we should figure out a way to get you one yeah definitely that' be cool but but to go back to the point um you know with Letterman I mean in this show here it's so funny how people will rea reach out to me I have people who will reach out and not they specifically will take time out of their day to reach out to me and say uh I'm not watching this week's show because it doesn't have to do with late night with David Letterman the only shows and they and they will they will like lambas me for saying you don't spend enough time focusing on Late Night with David Letterman and I mean well it's like you know hey we'll talk about Late Night with David letter as much as we possibly can but you know the the the the people who worked for Late Show are a lot younger than the people who worked for late night in many respects it's it's but but of course I mean you've got people letter people within the the the Letterman Enthusiast Camp who are like oh I am late night or die and they plant their flag or you know some people who' feel the same way about Late Show like again zinaman the other day he was talking about uh the the merch in in in the worldwide pants official store uh which I highly recommend by the way anybody go get yourself a David Letterman uh piece of merchandise whether it's at rert at hello- deli.com or the worldwide Pants Store go for it get some something but he was Zinman was like hey I'll buy get something something pardon me did you say get something something I don't know maybe we'll have to go back and check the tape uh but but he uh I might have used it as a filler word I don't know if I said something something maybe maybe I did something glet different yeah yeah I gu I guess it does a little something something um get yourself a little something something at the worldwide Pants Store but you won't be able to find any late night with David Letterman stuff there yet and Zinman said hey I if it's if there's a late night with David Letterman and stuff I'll buy it all and it was so funny like just there are people who plant their Flags when it comes to this stuff and um so weird fact appr propo of not much when I first describ this show by the way you just described this show appropo of not much that should be our new slogan yeah yeah yeah go ahead when I first arrived at Rowan they had late night at the wreck which is the rec center and I don't remember what it was like some Fitness Rave or whatever they do to make college students feel welcome and I noticed immediately that the late night that was on it was the old David Letterman logo ah so it had the late night logo and in the bottom the tail yep that had out the wreck I may still have it but it's worn because I would use it as like I would sleep in it so yeah and it's also not real late show late night merch no but it's again was kind of fun it shows how it's aaked into the fabric of of of our of our culture it's right but I may have been the only one who realized what they did I'm sure the design new um as well but yeah I love I love all these Echoes the idea that there are divisions within the Conan uh world and stuff I don't know if Carson had that or not I don't know if there are people uh back in the day who were you know YouTube didn't exist right so there weren't trust that's it yeah yeah VHS and it's like oh yeah I love the New York years versus I love the Burbank years this is a good question for Rob um did the show in your opinion did the tone of the show change between the New York years and the Burbank years Rob I don't really know because I I I haven't seen a whole lot of the New York shows um it definitely was uh it was a much bigger theater I mean Studio One in Burbank seated 500 people as opposed to the studio in 30 Rock was about 250 people so I mean you can also I guess you could compare that to uh you can look at Letterman I mean Letterman going from 30 Rock to the edell theater and it was just a much bigger setting and of course out on the west coast uh Johnny was going to get more of the movie stars and I think when he was out east it was probably more the Broadway people um but no I I don't know if the tone of the show well of course they they did change uh band leaders too there was a a Skitch Henderson and then there was a Milton delug who was band leader for very very briefly and then doc senson was was 25 out of the 30 years doc senson was was the band leader so that could have been some changes too but but yeah I I understand what you're saying as far as there may be people that are yeah they may may they like the the New York years better or going back even further like Allison said he was he was very successful before The Tonight Show he had who do you trust which was an ABC Afternoon game show and so Johnny was successful with that and he was wasn't sure if he could fill Jack par shoes and there were all of the uh the headlines for saying is Johnny up to par yes or no and and Johnny's wife uh Joanne was was really his biggest cheerleader and so she believed in him and but but yeah he he had success with um with who do you trust and so he was making good money doing that and had some recognition but also I think that people may think that oh Johnny Carson he was always Rich he was always famous no he had to pay his dues like everyone else I mean he had the Johnny Carson show which was uh Prime Time on CBS that was not successful he had a show called earn your vacation that was not successful he had Carson Celler which was local on uh uh kxt in Los Angeles and that was in the infancy of his career and his first marriage to Jody they had they had a lot of issues but they had Financial struggles and Johnny was not always rich and famous so he had to pay his dues like everyone else and uh yeah who you trust was a good fit and obviously The Tonight Show was a very good fit for him too but uh but yeah people may not realize that that that he had his ups and downs in in his career just like anyone else yeah I I really enjoyed that in the book uh there's a there's a there's a story about um Johnny and Jack Lemon that has been retold a couple of different times uh throughout John's career um but but but they they they take a different standpoint again bill is is is very much a fan and and I I I I appreciate this book very much because it's almost like and I mean don't I would never ever in a million years uh compare myself to Bill zi in in in any way shape or form but it's like a guy like me writing a book about David Letterman where there's this just massive reverence from a fan perspective and unabashedly shows it you know there are times where I can talk about Dave very clinically but but he doesn't do that in this book this book is like unabashed reverence and and I and I appreciate that about it compared to other volumes that have been talked about but he you know so so his retelling of that Jack Lemon story um is is is is very interesting because it was at a time where you know the two guys were not stars and they and they and they were uh you know they they closed down a bar together basically just just talking and talking and talking and talking and and and the the the the the the culmination of the story is that Jack you know left that meeting going oh my God that's going to be one of the biggest stars in the world you know and it's it's funny how so many people saw it um I want to finish this show here today this episode today talking with a few comparisons between Johnny and Dave uh because there are a lot of similarities one of the similarities I had written down is exactly what you just said Rob Johnny had a failed show and and and and and it's funny because just like the morning show with Dave um many people uh you know talk about how oh yeah the right driver the wrong vehicle you know it's just it's it's yeah okay this show didn't necessarily work for you but that is not indicative of Who You Are Johnny Carson is still a star on the rise but uh that's just the wrong show don't worry your time is coming and a lot of people felt that way but at the time Johnny didn't feel that way at the time when Dave lost the morning show he didn't feel that way massive massive uncertainty massive scarcity massive um you know confidence issues that kind of a thing I only knew Johnny Carson growing up as powerful Johnny he was the one of the most powerful people in show in Show Business he he he like you said earlier Rob he could kick a network around and and say no you know what I am gonna work some weeks three nights a week I am gonna have ownership over this show and again F you know we talk about this on the show all the time how when Dave moved over to CBS he basically took the Carson deal and just continued it for him you know because of you talk about this power that he had back in the day I love kiml now I love how Kimmel will have guest hosts the way that Johnny used to have guest hosts on The Tonight Show um but he is basically say dictating to the network what his terms are if they want to keep them um it's not the same thing that Johnny had back then because these shows aren't as you said Rob aren't nearly as profitable anymore unfortunately as as they were back then which is why we're seeing you know the decline and we're watching you know we're watching change happen right in front of us where this thing that has been around for generations and we've talked about these hosts that have bridged the generations together and now we're watching it where it actually is in Peril where the medium itself is actually in Peril and changing and and and uh um you know it's it's it's fascinating to watch and and for those of us who enjoy Nostalgia um or make it a profession or make it you know part of our of our daily lives it is it's fascinating times but it's also sad times a little bit yeah things are changing a lot I mean just look at uh yeah like you said I mean when you look at the 1993 contract that Letterman had you compare it to the 1980 contract yeah Letterman had ownership of The Late Late Show well The Late Late Show is gone now we have after midnight with Taylor Tomlinson which which is fine but it it's different it's not the mold of the old late night shows and yeah things are changing so much they really are and it's it's kind of it's kind of sad to see is it sad for you Allison or are you are you more looking at it from the perspective of you know like when I think of a historian um you know think of the Academia of it and they and they're just just almost like a reporter is that how you see it or do you have uh do you have some emotional skin in the game as well the world that we're talking about ended pretty much when I was 1819 so I do miss that however I was young when we stopped having these monolithic t host that we all watched before we go to bed mhm um so I'm not as I guess nostalgic for it maybe like I miss it I enjoyed it but I don't feel the need to go back to it or I don't want it or I'm not like oh I need to have this back it's so sad that it died it's all so I'm looking at it from the e media ecosystem has changed everything on broadcast TV is now competing with cable premium cable random things on the internet actual legitimate streaming services your phone I mean you can watch TV on three four different screens at the same time and you don't need multiple TVs next to each other yeah so I do find it sad because it is the end of the era but I also don't watch any of the current late night shows The Only Exception has been John Stewart Monday nights on The Daily Show and that's the only episode of The Daily Show I will watch yeah and that's probably because I grew up watching John Stewart so that's my connection and it's because it's new content and it was always a show meant for adult it's not the same as if I go watch an episode of double there where it's like yeah this is clearly for kids oh yeah yeah I see it's like okay I'm an adult I'm watching a show for an adult I was watching like I was watching Conan at 10: so I was already watching shows that were more of a part of a more Adult World from a very young age similar to how people who would watch Johnny like stay up late the monologue but you can watch the monologue but then you have to go to bed yep I mean I was with VHS tapes because I had to get up early and I do not function well in like four hours of sleep but I did have some Taste of the world but like I of that world but it ended when I was young yeah no I I get that um yeah it's it's just it's uh it's so it is very it to me it is still fascinating to watch the through line of this stuff all connecting to where we are right now uh I want to talk a little bit about um you know to finish things up here and and I mean obviously if there's any other thoughts about the book uh Carson I highly recommend Carson the Magnificent obviously if if if you are watching this show here or listening to it first off what's wrong with you second um this is a book that will probably uh it probably will entertain you because again it is I I the one thing that um you know Rob I and Allison both I agree I thought it was going to be a much thicker book because there was a lot of fanfare for a long time about this book you know Bill signed this deal years and years and years ago that this book was going to come out everyone say oh when's the zi book coming out when's the zi book coming out took 20 years to get it out there you go and so um you know and and part of that too was just his perfectionism in the fact that he just it was too big for him and it became overwhelming and I and I I can certainly relate to that just because of the reverence that he had but it finally did come out and the fact that it isn't um you know a definitive 700 page textbook essentially it's not it's a good read in the sense that if you do want an entry point into who Johnny Carson is I think it's a wonderful entry point um I do think it touches on all of the things that we've talked about here uh including some of the asides uh but I uh obviously this is the Letterman podcast and I you know many times I'm reading this book and I am just blown away by the comparisons and some of the similarities that Johnny and Dave uh shared uh through the through their career it's a lot more than I thought it was a lot more I always used to think that okay yeah um you know Carson started out as a magician and oh by the way oh yeah I mean talking about that there's a couple really cool things in the book about about that I love the idea that a lot of The Magicians of the day uh would would would would would be summoned to Johnny's home in Malibu they would come out there and they would have basically Jam sessions where where Johnny who who started out as a magician and always had a re a reverence for that art and they would come out and do this together I found that insanely Charming it's more it's a more exclusive Club than the Magic Castle there you go that's exact yes that's exactly right and Donnie would spend time at the Magic Castle and and uh uh yeah I loved that obviously that's not something that Dave and Johnny share although it made me think about like Dave would have magician week and many times it would be close-up magicians uh you know Dave good friends with Jeff Alman Jeff alman's a closeup magician as well as a an insane talented comedian and performer uh but there quite a few people who are in in entertainment are have a background in Magic um you look at dick Cavit you know uh I mean dick Cavit has a lot in common with Johnny Carson both are from Nebraska both dabbled in Magic as well as comedy both ended up as a late night talk show host dick kavit wrote for Jack par and then he wrote for Johnny Carson and then he got his own show and of course I mean I know dick havit has been on the Letterman podcast before and I put something on the uh the Carson Facebook page about Orson Wells maybe people didn't know that the great Orson Wells he was a magician and so you look at the title of the book Carson the Magnificent that's a nod to his days as a magician and you think about okay maybe Johnny's best magic Act was what he did on TV because he transformed himself into a much different person and and any book about Johnny talks about that Johnny was much different off camera than he was on camera on camera he was very Charming very witty a great conversationalist a great listener really showed off his intelligence and all that stuff but off camera he he was quite shy he was quite awkward um Ed McMahon said Johnny was great with 10 people or no right great with 10 million people not so great with 10 people so if he was at a at a party Johnny would be in the corner doing card tricks or doing tricks with a coin or you know he loved the closeup magic but he was he knew that he had to transform himself and he said that he was not comfortable in those small social situations but when he was performing he was in control it was all about being in control so if you're in front of an audience everybody's eyes are on you you're in control you're calling the shots so Johnny was a magician in in more ways than one oh very very well said um and it's funny you know they they have a quote from one of the and I forget the name of the of the textbook but it's one of The Magicians Bibles that are out there and and they they they they have uh four or five uh direct uh directions for an aspiring magician and it's Z makes a comparison of how a comedian or or a talk show host in this case here can take those same uh things and apply them and and and and the you know when you read them you're like oh that is that's Johnny Carson to a and he took a lot of this training as a magician and transferred it over to being a performer or uh you know a comedian talking about these comparisons with he and Dave um you know that's not one of them obviously but uh they're both drummers okay so both both enjoy enjoy drumming you know that's that's something and you got to wonder and i' I've I've wanted to ask Dave uh did your love of drumming come from the idea that that that Johnny was a drummer you know and you wanted to emulate that emulate your and the book is Hoff's book of magic thank you I appreciate that thank you so much um you know at one point little little facts Carson owned a bank at one time I thought that was interesting I just thought that was was a failed business venture he owned a bank I thought that was well his joke he went I mean bombastic bushkin was his lawyer and his his uh financial adviser and a lot of times Johnny would say in his monologue my lawyer bombastic bushkin he has some very shrewd business ideas for me and then there'd be a joke but but yeah Johnny dabbled in in different thing he had his own restaurant chain for a while it was just called I think it was just called here's Johnny's uh he wanted to buy a casino in Las Vegas and he got into a bidding war with Wayne new and so there's the whole story behind that Wayne Newton shows up at Johnny's office and was not very happy with him and because of some other issues too that things that Johnny was saying on the air but Wayne Newton basically wanted he wanted to get in a fist fight with Johnny but but yeah there there were other uh business ventures that Johnny did um he played Vegas for many years I mean he did Stand Up in Vegas uh if you watch the just go to YouTube go to the uh uh 60 Minutes interview that Mike Wallace did he he has a clip of Johnny in Vegas uh the sah Sahara Hotel there so um up until about 1980 that's uh how he would augment his his income uh doing stand up in Vegas too yeah absolutely um you know famously uh Johnny Carson had a DeLorean because he had a Stak in DeLorean as well and things like that um great great great Point um so I've got a whole bunch of uh I've got a whole bunch comparisons with with with with Dave and Johnny um both you talk about his standup really at the end of the day early in his career he uh in between in between gigs he kind of created sort of a makeshift act but it wasn't his deal he did not want to be a standup and I mean Dave same thing I mean very very very much not a standup you know Dave had an act he had a hunk he had he had material and he was everyone who saw him thought he was fantastic at it but it wasn't the love of his life standup was not the love of his life which is interesting because Johnny what is he most famous for like you say a lot of people they just watch the monologue which many people do consider to be standup it's a little bit different of a deal uh you know than than than say a traditional standup but stand up's not his thing and I mean he had an act but it wasn't the center point of his career just like Dave um you know both had shows that were canceled we talked about that earlier um uh oh both had the Temptation thrust in front of them to make a nice career in game shows you know both Dave and Johnny could have gone down the game show path but realized I don't know about Dave no you've seen the Riddlers yes but there was I mean we had Adam neiff on here and he uh and and he talked about this the idea that Dave was starting to get traction and and and there's a there's a a theory out there that when he had um you know the uh he had a game show opportunity to to be a host he threw he threw it he threw it because it's like no this is not where I want to go and there was a decision made going this is not what I want to do yes this could be a career but this is not what I want to do and I'm going to be focusing on moving in that direction there Johnny Carson same thing um which I thought was really interesting as well well let's face it I mean in the 1970s there were times when I mean Letterman needed money he needed something to do he did the Mary Tyler more variety show he uh he was on Mor and Mindy because his buddy uh Robin Williams from The Comedy Store got him on there he had a very small part on there he he auditioned for movie Airplane so he um he just wanted to take different jobs because there were times when he just needed the money but there as far as Johnny and Dave I mean back then in the 70s there was obviously there was the way to make it in Showbiz and that was to go out to California play at the and do stand up at The Comedy Store The Improv or wherever and their goal was to have somebody notice them with Johnny it was Jim mccaulay his uh his segment producer um you wanted somebody from Carson Show to notice you and to get on Johnny's show and that was why Dave moved from indianap out to LA it was like a clear path for him and you look at somebody like Freddy Prince I mean he did one one uh episode of Johnny the next day he gets the call from NBC and they say we want to give you your own show and that was Chico and the Man so I Johnny had so much power then as a star maker especially with comedians yeah and I mean uh you know Rory Rory rosearden was on here last week he talked about holding deals um you know David lman got a holding deal with NBC even after a show failed he had a holding deal and and and I mean those don't even really exist anymore um and again all of that from the power of and I mean Dave at that point was guest hosting um you know the Tonight Show that's obviously a stark difference between the two uh uh you know Kimmel and Conan yeah there and Letterman hosted the Oscars too I mean you know once Kimmel's done it a bunch of times I feel like if Conan does does what I think he could do at this thing this might be another thing Johnny host did I think five times I think Johnny hosted the Oscars it was it was uh I think so something like that when late 7s early 80s yeah late 70s early 80s see when I was growing up Billy Crystal was kind of considered sort of the main stay of the Oscars you know the the reliable host whatever Johnny was that for the Academy Awards um during that time and I think it's worth noting that Rob you noted that again the Pary thing that was thing I had written down as well but you know David Letterman I mean insane conversationalist able to Captivate millions of people but at a party he has gone on record talking about how he hates doing that it's it's just interesting all of the comparisons between the two um I just uh I I'm so grateful that you two have taken time out of your Thanksgiving to come here and talk about this stuff any other thoughts on Carson the Magnificent or anything else that you wanted to uh we've had a few days to prep for this so so any other thoughts that that had gone through both of your minds before we uh before we button this episode up I think I really wanted to mention Wizzle Falls because while it would never have worked on NBC to me it sounds like a great Adult Swim show so what's what's whistle Falls for for those that was the show where it was a newspaper reporter who flew his own helicopter and got stranded on a desert island that had that was inhabited by puppets that's an adult Sim show that's not an NBC show and that's that's Johnny that was Johnny like they made a pilot or they read the pilot script I don't remember exactly but I'm like if someone pitched that to Adult Swim now yep that would get at least a one episode pickup and they would throw it in paid programming and see how it goes absolutely it it ahead of its time um you and I Alison in a paper that you just wrote talked about you know Dave's um the HBO offering that he had early on that was way ahead of its time yes and you know same same same sort of a thing um both both men and this is a nice comparison you know again between the two both men dabbled a little bit outside uh in in other projects but no didn't really take did not really take uh they they they were comfortable uh doing what they were by far the best at better than anybody else at uh and that was of course hosting um hosting this show um yeah was a great great call what else anything else that we that that's uh left on the table any other scraps that we should talk about before we button this thing up Rob what do you got well I I was looking at my notes I think I pretty much covered everything on there but I I do have a prop here I don't know if it was talk if this was talked about in the book very much but this I found it really fascinating Newsweek magazine from 1969 there was there was a three-way competition in late night back back then which is common place now but back then it was was very unusual but you had murv Griffin on CBS versus Joey Bishop who is a rat pack member he was on on ABC and then Johnny on NBC yeah so you had the three of them and of course Johnny won but uh it's it's fascinating to think about that time in history and I mean back in 1962 if Johnny didn't make it as Tonight Show host murf Griffin was going to step in MF Griffin was right there he started his daytime show on the same day that Johnny did so murv would have been more than happy to take that job but things worked out fine for Johnny but but yeah when you think the three-way race and you think of Joey Bishop and and uh the fact that his sidekick was Regis filbin who was not very well known back then people were like Regis who's this guys so and yeah Joy Bishop was a rat pack member so he was hanging out with Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr and Dean Martin and and then when Joey went off we mentioned dick Cavit earlier that slot went to Dick cavat Joey Bishop got cancelled by ABC and so then dick Cavit stepped in and and did his show for a few years and Johnnie said he was he was concerned about Dick Cavit because he knew that dick cavat is very WI wty very smart a very good talk show host so Johnny had said that that if somebody was going to beat him in late night it may have been dick CIT it it wasn't you know Johnny still won but he recognized dick cit's uh array of talents a Rob yeah I'm so glad that you just uh said and did what you what you did um you know I I think about when Craig Ferguson went off the air this is something that maybe people can access in their in their lifetime in their memory banks I remember when Craig Ferguson went off the air and for I forget how long it was it might have just been the summer it might have just been the summer but they had the the The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson set and they had a whole bunch of people come in and do uh late late shows in the time of preparing for James Cordon to come in and and and take over Late Late Show when Jack par retired from The Tonight Show there was I think it was nine months uh I think it was like between February and October when Johnny was going to take over where everyone knew Johnny was going to take over and they had guest hosts for The Tonight Show at the time you just mentioned two of them Joey Bishop was one of them he hosted The Tonight Show in that inter term and um you know interesting like you said Rat Pack me like like this is a guy who who who there was a lot of there was a lot of juice behind him and the other one of course who built uh who built an entertainment Empire and has his own um you know stamp on on on this thing that we love both with this daytime show but also like with the things that he and that's MV Griffin and and and the idea that um again going back to I only knew powerful Johnny but back in the day it wasn't that in 93 the same thing happened when Letterman went over from NBC to CBS and then Chevy Chase was on and there were all these other Areno was still around in syndication jeno of course um and and and you didn't know where the cards were going to lay when they fell and and Johnny had one of those Mo and that's another comparison as well he had to um he had to to to to make his bones while there was competition out there and um I think that that is a wonderful wonderful um you know observance as well that many people may not understand or know um Carson the Magnificent is certainly worth the read for those of us who enjoy this stuff here I just want to say thank you thank you very much and Happy Thanksgiving to both of you um I appreciate the fact that uh we have this thing two and a half years in we have this community that's growing um I appreciate both of you being part of the Letterman podcast Community thank you so much for everything that you both do um both in your perspectives in this world what you're giving back and and I just I I appreciate both your friendship thank you both for coming on here today thank you very much for having us on I uh talking about the parallels between Dave and Johnny there was one one other thing I want to mention please do uh you know Johnny and Dave were very very successful financially and they both find it important to give back both of them have been very generous with their money and you look at uh uh Johnny Carson what he did he gave millions and millions of dollars to his alma mater which is the University of Nebraska at Lincoln so then the um the the media school there at Nebraska is the Johnny Carson School of television and film or whatever it is and so Dave probably uh because Johnny did it he did the same at his Alma M Ball State so the media building at Ball State University is the David Letterman media building so I think that's that's pretty interesting those two uh those two parallels there so their stamp is on media for generations to come oh again great Point um Rob I I I'm I'm going to just say a thank you to you uh because I know what it's like to be admin of a Facebook group that has you know a few hundred people and I understand you know there there's there's all sorts of stuff that comes with this and whatnot well you are admin on some groups that have tens of thousands of people and and I just want to say um you know you don't do it for anything else like I know you love being in broadcasting you love your job in television you just you're you're you're one of these guys and we've talked about how many of the guys and gals who are in broadcast casting they have this Affinity towards David Letterman and some of these other things that we love I think that's a Common Thread with many of them Darren Cox is a good example of that uh there's another good Shameless Darren Cox reference that we can throw into the episode excellent he'll love that um but but I just want to say thank you very much for being the admin of of these things because Facebook and groups like uh like platforms like Facebook that have these groups where we can get together and and talk about these things that we find in common I I think many times uh the echo the idea of the echo chamber gets a bad rap these days and I understand why I get that it's it's but but but at the same time also being part of a fan club growing up was one of the only ways that I would ever connect with other fans and and uh Facebook has made it that much easier to do that well you've been um you put in hours and hours and hours doing this I'm certain just like with my family with all the things that I do with the things that I love many times they kind Mike you got to go and do this yeah yeah I do I got I got to do this is important to me right I'm certain the same thing happens with you and I just wanted to say publicly Rob thank you so much for administering these these Pages you're you're you're uh connecting a lot of people by doing this it's a labor of love so thank you very much for doing that Rob well yeah you're welcome I I enjoy it and it's just good to be with like-minded people um not everybody is a late night geek and not everybody really likes to delve deep into to this stuff and but i' I really do I mean that's that's why I like your podcast I love the the Carson podcast that Mark used to do I love uh you know Conan's podcast uh fly on thewall the Saturday Night Live guys those are outstanding so uh yeah I I really like doing it and it's just really uh and it's a way to meet people that you normally wouldn't have met I mean I I met you know meeting both of you through this and I don't know anyone else in Canada I don't I don't know any any other Canadians so uh it's it's great to uh to establish friendships through those groups with people that uh are really passionate about that stuff uh like I am well and when you as as you know now when you become friends with a Canadian that friendship has a distinct maple syrup flavor uh seriously Rob I I I I am really grateful like early on when I started this you immediately attached yourself as as as somebody who would support this thing um it's been far too long since we've had you on so again thank you so much for for for for that support I really really appreciate it a lot and I I whenever I get a message from you where you've watched an episode or listen to an episode or or you throw something publicly out there and you talk about how much you love what we're doing here again I can't thank you enough for that that means a lot to me and Allison um you know I I love our friendship I love when you share you know some of the papers you're working on with me and stuff and and and uh I just love that you're somebody of your generation is grabbing the torch uh that that Rob and I have and we've been carrying and we enjoy and I just I'm so grateful that you're around here thank you for being you and uh for peering on the show again thank you for having me yeah it's fantastic all right it's three times for both of us so I I isn't that right Allison this your third time no it's my fourth that's right okay so you're one ahead of yeah it's three for me but uh I know how SNL has that five timers Club where they have their robes with a five on it so I'm I'm in the three timers club and you're in the four timr Club yes you need like Letterman podcast mugs for people who hit that Mark oh you know what the thing I got I got plans if we can get this thing to a place where um I'm able to spend a little bit more time and effort uh doing it's not just it's not I hate to say it's about money but at the end of the day you know you got to keep you got to keep the lights on you got to keep doing that I'm a financial planner by trade but plans that I have or the ideas that I have uh for this thing and it all comes down to community if we can build a a community as things get bigger things like this can happen but regardless I've said I said this to somebody else the other day in the Letterman world I I've already won you know people are like oh you know what if it became this what if it became that yes that would be great if it did but at the end of the day I've already won uh because I have developed all of these friendships and relationships and connection points uh with not just people in the in the you know who worked for the show or what not that's great great I love that but also because of people like you because of the people who do reach out uh you know people who have who have stomached this episode up to this point I appreciate you uh there those are the ones who reach out to me and and and I mean I get a kick out of that in the middle of my day if I'm at my office uh you know a client just leaves or something and I need a pallet cleanser I might look at my emails I might look into into into some of the things here and I always get messages from people who appreciate the stuff that we're taught even if they don't appreciate me necessarily they appreciate the stuff we're talking about and they stomach me because they have that same the the need for connectivity when it comes to these things and I think it's important um you're both very positive people and I just appreciate the beacons of light that you both are in our world so thank you both for being part of the Letterman podcast Community um I just want to say thank you to everybody else out there I hope uh you have had a Happy Thanksgiving this episode is coming out real time uh some of them are in the can when they do come out not this one here it's coming out right at uh the American Thanksgiving of course we in Canada celebrated last month early Harvest as we like to say oh also today it's Paul schaer's birthday so let's say a happy birthday to uh to Paul Schaefer um this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum uh coincidentally I am Mike Chisum thank you and good night over coat and Underpants