Chris DeLuca Worked For The Best Conan, Craig and Craig of Late Night

hi this is Chris Harris and you are watching the Letterman podcast welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum as I try and get a rid of look at look at the extra light that's sunlight that's actual sunlight you think it's a dark and dingy dungeon in here U and in many respects it is but sunlight does come in I'm like a prisoner that moves with the sunlight trying to get oh just please please let the sunlight you know just a few minutes of it um I don't even know why I started it this way you know what I'm going to start this podcast the way that I end a lot of them this is why we do the show the conversation I have with Chris DeLuca today uh writer been in television forever worked for SNL he was an SNL page you know so he's in that lineage um Conan worked for uh you know a a variety of other projects as well but then also uh kilborne and Craig Ferguson and I mean this guy has been around for a while guy was actually writing jokes for Craig kilborn while he was working for con obrien how crazy is that we get into it uh he was working for Conan he was there the night that Dave came back and guested it on Conan Late Night with Conan O'Brien for the first time some say that that is one of the the things that turned a corner for that franchise and for Conan he was there for that he's actually the guy that walked David Litman up uh crazy crazy uh life experiences that Chris Duca has had um also has a podcast right now that is absolutely as far as I'm concerned a genius premise it's called talking Trump the American Emperor after show and the premise of the podcast is that basically um some of the things that are going down to my good friends brothers and sisters uh south of the Canadian border um is is actually a show and they talk about it kind of like uh kind of like talking dead or you know talking bad or or some of these these show it is a really clever premise and I highly recommend it talking Trump the American Emperor after show of available on your uh favorite podcast platform and YouTube for that matter as well but chrisa has given time uh he's got a lot of tangental connections to the Letterman world and just hearing him talking about his time at 30 Rock and telling some of the stories that he told uh just really brings a lot of richness to this thing that that that that folks like myself and uh and other people who love to talk and pontificate about um about comedy specifically late night specifically these genres these hosts uh these Productions that we love so much this is a phenomenal example of that this is why we do the show um you know what I'm going to stop here with that uh I hope that you enjoy the conversation that I had even a fraction as much if you enjoy this conversation even a fraction of how much I enjoyed uh having it with Chris Duca you're actually going to enjoy this episode and it won't be just killing time um please without further Ado enjoy our conversation today on the Letterman podcast podcast with Chris DeLuca Chris I am so stoked that you've taken time um to come here today I want to talk about your podcast that you're doing right now uh but we'll get to that we're gonna get to the after show we're GNA get you know it's such a genius the premise of your podcast is amazing um okay worked at Conan worked at kilborne worked at Ferguson good Lord You've uh you've you you've had your experience you've put in your time in late night uh figuratively you know as a genre and as a show um well I I I uh I wasn't there from the beginning in late night but I'm certainly there as as it comes crumbling down at the end so yeah no kidding boy have we seen some changes in this genre that we love so much over the years I just thank you so much for taking time to come on the Letterman podcast I uh I'm I'm such a pleasure thank you for having meate man it's going to be a great show it's going to be a great conversation um it's funny when I reached out to you uh it's as a result your name has actually come up a couple of times on this show um we most recently had uh Ben zansky on and uh you hired him cool his internship at Conan I'm glad my name is coming up uh under the premise of someone like Ben and not uh because this is a podcast about people who owe money to credit cards that's the other show that's the other show and it's good to know that we can cross pollinate both shows um yeah no and and I mean um you know you you worked with you worked uh with a lot of folks there's a lot of tangental connections to you in the Letterman universe but at the end of the day you also worked for Late Night with Conan O'Brien you know the air uh to the franchise that was that really blew the doors open for there to be other talk shows that could compete and have their own life cycle because it really didn't happen I mean you had The Tonight Show um you know of course with Johnny with the strangle hold and you had people come along Cav of course was able to put in um you know his uh his two cents into the late night Mythos um but really at the end of the day there weren't a lot of shows Late Night with David Letterman does its thing uh they take their dog and pony show across the street to CBS and it's like well we want to keep this thing going so we're gonna hire this comedy writer named Conan O'Brien and um and at what point did you jump on the train well the thing about it is I mean I I I I don't know if this is going to you know I certainly didn't know this then but you know when Letterman first of all when Letterman was doing his NBC show um I was kind of um I kind of was come you know going through I guess I first discovered it when I was in high school Y and um I've always been you know a comedy you know this is a phrase that's overused but I've always been like a super comedy nerd but also you know like almost a little bit of a comedy snob in the sense that I that was a huge you know part of my identity when I was a kid um you know and I watch Letterman uh every single day I would tape it on one of those old VCS that had the freaking Channel Changers like the physical channel the dial the dial on the VCR we had one too we had one too absolutely I remember for a while when VCRs were just coming out man and my my mom rented one cuz they were constantly like moving you know up in technology it look like a big tape recorder you would literally press play and anyway um I would set the I would set the the the tape to to tape Letterman every single night and when I got home from school I would immediately watch it and I mean it was every everything i i l that show y so much not only did I love the like I didn't even know I was like what is going on here you know i' love the the way he would kind of come out just the the che the the the purposeful you know the way that they would put their logo on you know in their bumpers you know on a on a on a do not walk sign or on a hot dog stand that late night you know was the the picture was taken with like very little you know very little light in it it wasn't you know purposely I loved everything about it I loved how they had that opening announcement and then they zoomed in on that that that window and and 30 Rock that made it look like that was the window the one place something's going on at New York at that time yep yeah it was amazing and then just the the comedy bits and the and Chris Elliott and and the extras and then also um you know just the like I just I took I took his Cadence upon you know myself you know just like things that he would say would uh would you know he did a bit a long time ago I'll always remember but he was doing like all these these record these records that these celebrities put out like that should never have been put out one of them was Leonard nemoy he did a musical album but he would call him Leonard neoy not the way you pronounced his name but used just the fact that he would say that was supplied the punchline he's like and this this one by Leonard de Mo you know I was in on it 110% he played the Shatner albums that's a dog barking I don't know if you can hear it no dogs dogs add to the demo this is good now we've got dogs in the show this is great so Letterman was amazing and then I'll tell you one more quick thing before you go no you tell me anything you want this is jazz let's just have some fun this is great yeah it it also uh formed the uh so the standup comedians that he would book and bring on the show that's also was a big entry point for me in comedy because before they were super famous you know he would have Dennis Miller on he would have I believe and I'm almost positive and I'm gonna say this I believe he that Gary Shandling did stand up on the show abut I believe that Seinfield definitely did Leno himself he was hilarious on that show I used to like when Leno he was on like twice a month I think y I would love to watch the Leno uh episodes Leno would do panel but really it was just standup on the set and then um you know other guys that were George Miller was on all the time and then Dave's friends but I was gonna say it's the combination of The Cutting Edge which is great the guys and gals who can't get on to Carson you know and there's a few people who who who were tweeners they could do both shows Jerry Seinfeld probably being the most famous of them but um there's only a few that uh don Giller and I were actually going through this a few months ago as to how many comedians actually got to do both shows and it's small number uh comparatively and and so what you're talking about I love because there's an appreciation for The Cutting Edge that can't get on Carson but then you've got you know Mort Saul or or or you know and then his friends of course you know Tom dreon and Jeff Alman both have been guests on this show like like like his friends you know yeah absolutely and us who are in our formative years are now getting this crazy mashup of the old School show business that Dave loved and would have conversations with some of these older you know people or whatever but then also The Cutting Edge and it's a really cool j jux toos like you know having Hal gurny as his director who worked for par you know yeah but then you have that's so true there was such a rich uh like you felt it even though you didn't know it at the time there was like and Letterman if you read about him obviously I'm sure you have he he he was he was very much um he had respect for that for the tradition you know of of what broadcasters do you know yes and um clearly that came through uh when I just will come back you know I don't want to jump around too much but like jump around all you like Chris I'm just having fun this great when I was working for Conan for for many years on the set uh I don't know if you saw this on camera certainly not all the time but he Conan himself had pictures um so here's Conan's desk y here's the Eisenhower mug here's his where's his uh guest that on a wall you couldn't really see all the time he had head shots of Johnny Carson Jack par Letterman you know and I think Steve Allen or you know they they always and that was in studio 6A they always you know there was always this homage and then the guys who worked the cameras uh you know they some of those guys were left over from Letterman's Reign so like you know uh they they had seen it all you know and uh the sound guys the camera dudes who worked on the in the set and you know the some the stage hands had been there you know from back when Letterman was doing it so where' you grow up um well I don't like to answer this question publicly because but I'll share it with you uh I did grow up in uh in Staten Island New York uh I have a LoveHate relationship with with that island so does Colin Joe so does Pete Davidson but boy is it fun to see hear the punch lines these days about Staten Island it's it's it's becoming Infamous in a different way just like uh all of the other Burrows which is great you grew up in Staten Island you col had a much Colin had a much better experience I think than I did so I mine is a little more aligned with Pete uh you know but um yeah Staten Island is where I grew up and uh definitely uh has you know put a you know I believe that the center of gravity in all the universe is underneath sattin Island that is why you know this is a land that's built on a garbage a giant garbage uh you know pit it's a Vortex of garbage and lot of lot of weird energy there let's just put it that way um so so you're a comedy nerd growing up a super nerd like you love this stuff like I I'm the same way by the way uh like I mean I you know who I envy and it's not because of his career right now I envy Jud appal and and and it's because back then you know he's working for a for for for a working he's got a racket as a high school reporter and he uses that to springboard his way to all these conversations with people who end up becoming Giants in the land of comedy and I I I I identify with that guy like crazy um boy did he ever know where the puck was going back then and he just you know jum that's right exactly Long Island which is a very I wouldn't say Long Island is similar to Staten Island I would say that they are related on the on on the on the weird um metaphoric plane of existence I'm not exactly sure I'm not a scientist I don't know the exact relationship but there's definitely when something happens in Island a worst version of it happens at Staten Island well we got to get the anthropology department of every of every they may not know this for centuries but you there's definitely a weird connection there um so so that being said I imagine because you know I'm a western Canada guy and and and the Allure of New York has called to me since a young boy and and and this stuff it was always it just felt like the world and what was really going on that mattered was happening at 30 Rock and and I mean I can imagine you're growing up in Staten Island you're you're feeling this way I can imagine there must have been times where it's like I'm going to Manhattan I'm going in front of that building I'm going to see and and then you end up becoming a page there I I I I want to know the connection as to how that happened how did you worm your way in there and did that place and does it still have kind of that Majesty uh that magnetic pull um that that that I think it does well uh there's you're absolutely right like there was a mythology about that building especially when I was younger yep um I don't you know um there was absolutely a mythology about the building you know being from New York you would you would well at least I would we would journey to go see the tree you know uh once a year and uh obviously that's like tourist central but um you know we would do we would do the uh the sax with that Avenue and the tra there was always a a Majesty to a majestic you know uh uh you know element to that building for sure um walking for locals and tourists alike everybody kind of felt it it was a communal it was a communal thing for people from near and far walking into that building absolutely uh especially when I was younger was like a special event you know sometimes if I would happen you know you I you weren't in the city you know when I was in high school I wasn't in the city every day but when we you know you would make a point of going in there and for me for sure uh you know my brain would go into like dream mode and I would just be like I want to be a part of something that's going on in this building it was so cool uh and this is also it's a little bit different now because like now they have like this big NBC store and it's like it's such a tourist trap now but back then it was so weird I'm telling you dude this wasn't that long ago you would go into the the the you know the ground floor level now there like a J crew in some NBC store but there used to be like this borderline shitty Diner that was that occupied the first floor and this is some of probably some of the most expensive real estate you know in New York yep imagine what the rent was and I think it was called it wasn't called Blake Steiner but it was something there was a blak's diner there it's come up on the show before and I forget the name of it cuz I'm D and the interior the interior of that Diner was like this pink weird you know 80s or late 80s like design and and you know you could sit in there and have a [ __ ] uh you I'm sorry it's going to curse no let's curse let's do it yeah you could have like an egg scrambled egg omelet or something you know and you know and and and and have a coffee like served in a mug like this you know it wasn't like it was weird dude and then underneath there was all these stores there and it wasn't like you know now it's like Starbucks and all these corporate places but it was like some mom and popop like uh you know Coffee Joint or like a guy who made you know falafal or whatever so it was a very different VI but yes there was a justy that build walking in there I I constantly was like um this I want to be a part of something when I then I um you know I was a huge fan of SNL growing up you know um my dad you I remember like my dad used to let me watch uh you know when I was way young you know used to let me watch SNL up until uh update and then I had to go to bed you know so like um you know I I kind of grew up doing that and and um yeah and then uh when I went to I went to college in the Bronx at a the College of Mount St Vincent which is right by Manhattan College it's right on 242 if you take the one and the nine all the way up there y um I was able to uh get an internship at SNL SNL and I was the only person from my college to to get that internship at that point and um I was just like I couldn't believe like back in those days I I sang in a college band had like long hair and nice what was the band name uh it was called the influence that's fantastic it's just pretentious enough yeah exactly just pretentious yeah uh but before I started the internship like I cut my hair you know I got a haircut I you know I went I bought you I remember I bought like I had to buy like clothes that were like you know cool enough to like at least make me look not not look like I was like a homeless person you know walking around those but uh going to [ __ ] seriously though you took this [ __ ] seriously like okay nervous yeah yeah yeah yeah there is no more athetic college student at this point this is like oh [ __ ] this is I'm going for my dream here I couldn't believe it dude I couldn't believe I was going on that 17th Floor you know and um I remember too like the first first of all I remember the guys that I was working for my supervisors there they were you know I I mostly kept my mouth shut as much as possible but um you know uh they were they were very you know looking back they were very kind you know cuz I didn't know what the hell I was doing you know I was just walking around up there just and they were I was working in the research department on Mondays and Saturdays and Fridays uh which meant that back in those days they needed an exterior of a airport you know to start off a sketch so they would send me to a video store and I would have to rent like you know 14 movies that I thought would have an exper you know the exterior of an airport you know bring them in there and uh you know they would have to go through and mark off you know this is how this sketch at the airport's going to start a plane's going to land here's the footage and then they go to to the sketch um you know so I did that for photos and I did that for um uh video uh working in this department but these two well I'll just say like Karen Nathanson was my boss and she was so nice and then um St and then like one of my heroes even though I haven't talked to this guy in forever and I don't even know where he's at but this guy Steve Corin was my other boss and he couldn't have been H that guy was so what a what a mench he was he was just like very cool and I caught him at the right time in his life cuz he had a well he had a very big interest obviously he had an interest in comedy and he was like writing things on the getting on the show while I was kind of there and I just kind of like sat back and just kept my mouth shut never bothered him and if he needed something I I jumped up and did it but he was kind enough to actually uh after I got out of school which was like a year later I wrote him and he was kind enough to write a letter or forward a letter on my behalf to the Pig program because I think because he was a paig also yep just a h such a cool guy by the way incredibly funny my entire ill-informed career was based on him because he he he was a page and I believe he kind of worked his way up to the research job but he was a writer and he was writing these great jokes for update and I think he was again I'm going to talk out of school here because I don't know exactly but I think he was submitting jokes to Dennis Miller and to Kevin nean getting stuff on and then and this never happens I mean I thought it happened all the time but it very rarely happens he actually got ended up getting promoted eventually to be a writer on the show wow and he was the guy who wrote uh among other things he wrote uh the um the legs up sketches with Molly Shannon and and Phil Hartman and and uh you know he did and he did a Litany of sketches I'm I'm forgetting some of them but then of course he wrote Bruce Almighty and uh you know he wrote you know he's written films and I don't know where now he's probably hopefully he's on some yacht somewhere enjoying life but he was uh he wrote he wrote a letter for me to um to get to be a page so I got an interview through that and then like from there um you know you basically you know back in those days it was a little I don't know what it's like now but you you went on three or four interviews to get that job and it was a oh my God it was such a great job because you're sitting there you're in the now I'm in the building you know and it's like now now I'm walking I remember I said this thing in the in the in the interview in the group interview I was like you know CBS has a page program but no one goes to that building for toys because they don't care they care about this building you know and um yes I was in the building and you're and now you're giving toyss but but more than that like you're exposed to everything and also you're in the building you're you're working as a page with other people like you who are you know they're all they all dream about you're getting the best of college PE col just out of colle College age people who are ambitious who are smart who are hustling and it's like going to college again except there's no you know tests so it's really like just the good parts of college and uh I I enjoyed my time as a Paige I worked there for back in those days you're only there allowed to work a year yeah I was going to say they had very tight uh well and and it's funny because um we've talked a little bit about the page program because there's a gal by the name of Janice Panino who ended up doing um running the HR for worldwide pan right up to the end and she used to be in charge of the page program for NBC and and she started uh she started you know you know working for stern um and and and all that and then she ended up running that program and I mean you talk about a program with Majesty uh we just actually had a guy on um name was John Moran John was at the uh uh he was a page and then he became a utility worked for Late Show for the whole run but um I think he's in his 70s Now 60 late 60s early 70s and he talked about how he went to the 80th anniversary page party I'm still friends with I'm still friends with many as a matter of fact I'm uh I'm friends with many people who I paged with uh during my time and then SL then slightly after being a page is definitely something you connect to I I meet people in my professional life now who were Pages years after I was and you know oh you were page you kind of look out for them um yeah so uh yeah it was great and then I'll say this real quick like when you're your page you're very resourceful and um I'll tell you some fun stories but you know one of them is that uh we uh we again like I was saying was going to college except you didn't have any classes or any any any tests to study for so after work you just kind of go out but you had no money because we all broke we're all living in you know New York city so uh I shout out to anybody who was a page with me who might be listening uh we would go after work this is so funny we'd go to for so we're working at 30 Rock at 50th 50th and and 6 Avenue you go down to 48th Street which is like uh if you've ever been around there like 49th and 50th is beautiful and Majestic it's all you know Art Deco 48th Street is like Kolkata it's like it's like open air markets and everything so we would take I would take the pages we would go to this place called Pronto Pizza and only for it was the worst Pizza in the world but only because you could buy bottled beer in there that was put on ice for like $2.50 they would sell like a so we would go there we would basically just it was this horrible like lit with like a you know what do you call the the fluorescent lighting above you the tables were like you know gross but you're drinking beer for like $2.50 because if you go to a bar it's going to be like $7 you don't have any money so like you're just dropping down beers and I'm buying you know first round's on me because I'm just dropping a 10 and buying five I'm gonna get the beer bought back when it's like expensive and you're there at Pronto Pizza drinking a couple of beers because you know doing your pregame and the place uh we always say they would close and and as they close they would clean they would clean the area they would break out this giant bleach bucket with this old mop and just start like wiping the FL we were like they're breaking out the bleach it's time to go you know so everybody all these young people would get in you know get on the street and we' figure out where we were going next were you still wearing your blue blazers um that's funny too we had to wear those horrible blue blazers no we I kept that [ __ ] in the uh in our lock we had lock and everything yeah yep uh well and it's funny because like like you I I love that you uh made this distinction Chris I really do yeah CBS had the broadcast Center yes they had a page program and yes these people worked with kronite amazing but you don't see it on 30 Rock where they actually have a character with the with the Blazer you know you don't see uh kronite going out and talking to the page outside of the studio the way you did for late night like like there is there said Kennedy was just shot uh can I get a two coffees I gotta go I gotta go break this to America right that's right so so it is it has flash yeah the coffee over here please for the man on the moon um you know and it is it's it's it's this is the stuff that guys of I'm a 76 baby are you you got to be close to that right you're in that area okay so yeah you and I have it seared in our brain Dave going out and and and talking to that or SNL or what like it's seared in our brain there's Majesty to it there's there's there's something there um and you got to actually experience it and you are grateful enough and present to know holy smokes this is something that was W hardwired into me from the dream come true perspective and then you actually got to live it and it feels like during the time you were actually present and knew it which is also something that doesn't necessarily uh stick this is one of those things sometimes years later you can look back on it going I can't wait wait a second I actually kind of manifested that maybe or whatever but it feels like you were present and you knew what you had I've been very fortunate in in in one thing in my career which is like uh in such a horrendously stagnant area at at the moment Crea right now uh I was very fortunate because I was around a lot of cool things that were happening and I did understand what was happening um I'll tell you this quick story when I was at Conan this is a true story 100% this is crazy uh so I lived in we hawk in New Jersey which is very close uh it's right above Hoboken and it was very affordable like if you you know I I paid like I had an apartment with a couple of college buddies and I think I paid like 550 for my share of it I had a room you know and uh everybody who was I was living with they we all worked in TV or or in uh you know um media so my roommate who's still a friend of mine to this day my one of my roommates uh he worked at um New York 1 and um he was working overnights uh and he was like a he was in the world of news and um anyway so one this is absolutely true story Conan was Conan used to do this uh back especially back when I was like a page and I was like a receptionist Conan used to do these um very involved uh post Show Bits and uh one time they were taping this like what was like a Dallas type um you know um uh you know drama that Conan and Andy starred in you know that was the that was the premise of it and they would bring in people to uh to you know they would bring in these I'm going to say seist uh celebrities to kind of have cameos in it all the time and uh you know the the town Department would book them and they would come in and they would perform their role and they would go the a goas of the world avodas of the world yeah one time um they brought one time for some reason I was at my 68 desk it's a true [ __ ] story and uh I think it was like after the show or you know no was anyway um Mickey Rooney was the six like for some reason Mickey Rooney was on our sixth floor and in a he was there all day all day so he was there to tape something with Conan but something happened and his Handler which was his son just just had him in a in an office uh all all day long so Mickey reenie kind of would come out of his office cuz he he was a creat of show business in this point I don't know how old he was I'm going to say he was definitely late in life like he's at the point where Dana carvey's doing imitations of him on Saturday Night Live I was the biggest star in the world yeah you know you he's definitely in his 80s L I think he lived I think it was a few years before he died anyway he can came in and he was like this man it was amazing like like he was everything you would think like it was like a weird small version a terrible version of my favorite year like he was just kind of he was sitting with me at the at the 6A desk and he would pick up the phone he' be like Micky Ry here or what you know he was just like acting insane and his Handler who later by the way was accused of elder abuse uh you know just leave him there and he took off you know so I'm sitting there babysitting Mickey Rooney all day [ __ ] long so finally and this like like picking up the phone he's like what's this for you know he I'm like put that down you basically saying Mickey Rudy can you please behave yourself and you know and people are the stage managers are walking in and out they're looking they don't want to be anywhere near me because like they don't want to deal with Mickey Rooney anyway so the day finally ends I go home I think I went out and got like hammered I go home and my roommate who worked at New York one he was working the L chips and he and he came home and um he was just like you'll never [ __ ] believe what happened today I was like what happened and he was like uh we had uh interview segments and [ __ ] uh at at at like 8:00 or 8:30 at night Mickey Rooney comes in and he's there all night I was like are you kidding me we just had to deal with Mickey Rooney all day too so one of the odds that two people who lived in the same apartment and we Hawking had to spend between them 12 hours 12 to 18 hours with Mickey Rooney in the same was insane and that's like I was just like wow that's this is crazy that's fantastic and I I I want I want to mind this a little bit more because that you the the years that you were at SNL or the year that you were at SNL and and and and at paig my you know they say that you're your um uh that that that the the fraternity uh at SNL that attaches to you the most deeply is the one that you had when you were in high school so for me Phil Hartman um I like I I worship Phil Hartman I love him so so so much but the day Carvey Phil Hartman Kevin nean John Lovitz all those guys and then we got to see we got to see the evolution like where kind of Mike Myers showed up and then you had Sandler and Spade and Farley and Schneider and all these guys show up and you almost had my my my years almost basically had two casts um those were my years that's the time that you're there you're there for some iconic moments like my word you got to see some crazy stuff there I was so stupid uh like I didn't know like I I I I literally got in the building and I was like I was like I didn't know what you know I had to learn literally like by my eyes how these things worked and what my job was I didn't know what to do so I most of a lot of time I was just kind of sitting like waiting and watching to see if anybody needed me or whatever but on Wednesday nights I would be assigned to work with the script uh department and that was the big readr day so we'd get in early I was constantly just taking scripts down to the repo room coming back up with them and then at the end of that day and I was so poor as a college student um they would do their readr and then the script Department would get to order dinner and if I hung out long enough they would order me food so I was like that was a what I was going to eat that night you know I have like this tiny little literally like a chair like that I was allowed to sit in that it was almost like an airplane chair like I I could that was my space like I couldn't occupy any other space there if I walked around and sat on a couch like they're like who is this guy uh get the [ __ ] out of this couch you know I you know so I would have just this space to sit in and I would get my uh so they would order food and they be like what would you like and I would say give me this chili uh chili burger Deluxe cuz I was just going to eat that that's what I was going to eat the whole day so I would be like H going to town on this thing I remember sitting in the chair and uh the chair was positioned directly in front of Mike Myers office Mike Myers was in there and he was wearing um like a like a hockey jersey yep and um I was so happy to to take this this uh this burger in a big tin thing and just hold it on my lap and eat and I was eating like just ravenously hungry I remember looking up and Mike Myers is in his office across the hall with the door open and he looks at me and I'm just like I got probably have chill covering my entire like a baby covered my face with chili and he's like staring at me and he slowly gets up and I'm like [ __ ] this is like my and he just comes and shuts his door so watch me um but again okay Mike Myers guess what you were there during Wayne's World like like there are times with SNL has had es and flows and things like that at this point here you know half the half the reoccurring characters are getting movies made about them that sort of a thing um were there any moments during that time other than the chili burger which sounds delicious at this point um were there any times that that that that are seared in where you're like wow I got to see that that musical guest that uh you know I got to be this oh yeah I was there for the uh for the Nirvana performance oh my God that was amazing I was there I was there for it was and again I was so stupid like I was there on a Saturday and I didn't know where to go you know I was like what do I do you know so I'm kind of like hey do you need anything no and then I'm kind of like hiding or so I was there for U for um the band when they did uh the weight uh on the show uh with uh I think Chevy Chase was was hosting so I was in the uh The Green Room area watching this performance of the band and then chery Chase came out musician that was phenomenal um I always admired so you were talking about cast I was lucky like I I admired the first I I you know Bill Murray and and I read all books you know read the live from book and wired by B Woodward I read all those books and for a long time I was like I was enamored of John balushi you know uh you know back in those days when nobody really talks about him anymore and I would go to like um I had all those Lemmings albums and I was doing standup at the time and I would do open mics and and perform at something called The Village Gate Theater which is now a CVS but and there's a big plaque in it but that's where guys kind of came up in New York it was this beautiful cool theater with three different levels and back in those days Comedy Central was just starting off and they would run these special they would run this program called standup stand up and they would just show clips basically it looked like it was taped by somebody's phone but there were no phones back then they run clip after clip and so many of them were at the um the Village Gate Theater that's actually the first place I ever did standup was oh my God that's amazing yeah so um anyway um I yeah so oh so you were talking about cast so yeah I always loved you know Bill M everything Bill Murray did and he was one of my favorites and and then um you know every C you know the the Martin Short cast with Billy Crystal even though they were free air watched that religiously and then when um when I was working as an intern you know Rob Schneider was there and and and I remember like we would sit in that large Bullpen area sometimes and if a writer came in or if a cast member came in like you would kind of have to like you know sit towards the side or whatever but I was there for many cool conversations Al Frank and and uh and Snider was there and I remember Sandler was around Sandler was very cool and even though you know he was just friendly he would make you know he would say hi and he was friendly with the people in the corner that I sat with Steve and and and Karen and um and then uh Chris Rock was like very young and he was there and then um uh there was you know there was just that was that cast but then the cast that I really was attached to was when I was a paig because they were making a transition to the will Ferell Daryl Hammond uh cast that that kind of came in subsequent to the Phil Hartman and the Dana cart well they had both left but um I always thought Chris Parnell took over for Phil Hartman in some ways I always thought he was my guy he he's kind of became my Phil Hartman in my mind I like that cast too um and then of course our boy nor McDonald of course yeah I mean you must have crazy nor McDonald memories because of because of that but also because of Conan of course um I mean you know Norm was um so one of the things I did when I was a Paige was uh by that time I had wanted you know I wanted to be a writer when I was an intern but I didn't you know I was just doing stupid [ __ ] at College I was just doing standup you know and doing standup at bars that had standup contests and stuff and losing losing to the ra the ra on my floor it was humiliating uh [ __ ] you guys have funny uh anyway uh so by the time I was a page like I definitely knew I wanted to be a writer and um I was like I had been working in comedy by the way I was working in comedy in New York City with a lot of people who tend you know who would go on to work for Letterman you know I was in a sketch group with the stangle brothers um working with those guys and and and we were in this phenomenally unbelievable sketch group because every so many people from the sketch group went on to do cool things in TV so I was working with uh the stangle brothers who obviously went on to be the head writers at Co at um Letterman dou Gables was in that group he was an award-winning SNL writer who among other things um who else was Chris rean multiple uh Emmy nominee uh Emmy Award winner from The Daily Show and you know we Works Family Guy every almost everybody not almost everybody but so many people from that group went on to stuff and what was the name of the what was the name of the group it was called Uncle Zeno's chuckle patch so maybe that's why we weren't so discovered but uh Andy Daly was an actor in it and Beth Littleford was an actor in it and uh you know there it was just a very formative experience we used to do shows at West Beth theater so I was always writing sketches and I was like you know I'm going to be a writer I'm a writer blah blah blah was making my way through that that that Arena uh this is before UCB hit you know Chicago city limits was like the big thing um so when I got to SNL as a page I was ready to go you know I was I was I was like I'm I'm absolutely 100% in I'm gonna this I'm GNA be Steve Corin I'm gonna go I'm gonna be a page I'm gonna submit to update and then I'm going to submit to a show and I'm gon to be a writer just like him a hero a little delusional but great the that delusion is what got Dave you know guest spotting on The Tonight Show like that that delusion is what makes these things happen many times it's literally looking up at the ball of lightning going I wonder can I grab the ball of lightning and then suddenly you get the superpowers um I gotta ask you this one question before you move to Conan though I gotta I gotta get to this because you mentioned Sandler and one of the things about that cast is many of them are on record as card carrying uh worshippers of what David Letterman and Company did and they would talk about how they would go to the floor and they would like sit and they would just kind of be on Letterman's floor just kind of looking around to see what might happen um there's an amazing picture uh of Conan O'Brien at Dave's desk you know while he's a staff writer for SNL um there's times where he would go and the lore is he Conan would actually go and write sketches at Dave's desk um for SNL to me that just that's so it's beyond Charming um it's it's just delightful to me did you have any um time um or or or you know inclination or even like the confidence to go and try anything like that at that point or did you really try and stay in your lane because you didn't want to mess it up I have to say this though um especially when I was a page at SNL excuse me um I have to say this um I would work all I would work at the desk and do everything I possibly could to to to to not [ __ ] up I would be like you know fastidious about everything that I did like somebody asked for something I would jump up and and do it and then I got an opportunity they somebody said to me why don't you go upstairs after you're done here uh and and help work on update which was really just kind of stacking newspapers and making sure that newspapers were in a were in piles essentially and then um they uh they said well you know by the way if you ever want to submit jokes to update uh you know you can so I was like what what you know so uh I started to submit jokes to update when Norm was there and I have to say two a couple of things there were a lot of people a lot and I'm certainly happy to name them uh who were unbelievably gracious to me like doing this like uh Frank Sebastiano who was a legendary writer at update for norm and Ross abrash were two of them I couldn't effing believe it like I would submit a joke or a couple of jokes and I would just like be sweating this like you would not like my whole life is about jokes and uh you know by the way when you're starting to write those update jokes they're like they're like eight lines long you know and you have you know that's way too [ __ ] you know they have to I'm constantly trying the economy of words is extremely important teaching myself had to write these jokes spending like all day doing it so I would like submit jokes and um uh I remember one time I had submitted jokes and I didn't get anything on and um Ross so I was walking in the hallway and Ross was like hey I saw those jokes that you gave keep it up you know just little things like that and then Frank would would say something nice and it was just like I couldn't believe how gracious they were and to this day you know you know I ended up working with Ross like years later um but also other people were incredibly gracious like Hammond was so gracious to me like so nice I used to go up and when I would work for the update thing I would go up and work with him on update pieces where he would just in his mind he would be like I want to do Lee I remember this a true story I want I want to do Lee J Cobb as a um as a you know an update feature I was like okay and then he would did this voice it was just the fact whatever he would say was so [ __ ] funny I'd be crying be like he did this whole thing about when I was a kid they put me in the hole you know and he would just like do this like you know and I would be writing with him he was just he was such a he was so positive and so nice I remember one day he came up to me and he was like he knew I wanted to be a writer and he was like well let me see some of your sketches and I was like this is it I'm going to be a writer next week so I gave him the three best sketches these are three of the best sketches I've ever done in my life and they had been performed and everything and I was like that's it I'm cool I'm and Daryl took them and he brought them upstairs and then like a couple days later he came down and he was like um he was he was giving notes on the sketches and I was like what in my mind I was like what are you g these sketches are perfect they've been Prov they've been performed and then he was like he stopped he saw this look on my face and he was like this isn't the best you're ever going to do right because just like forget it like this so I was like oh there's perspective there one thing I learned from that experience that I really hold as as a tenant is um talented people are never intimidated by other talented people they welcome talented people and and they look at them as if like I can get something from your your talent can enhance me and I'm going to enhance your talent so I had like Jim Brewer coming up to me and uh Daryl adding stuff to my sketches that like made them better you know and I remember I was able to submit a couple of sketches through Daryl to the show excuse me that never got on but um you know that was like such a thrill and the I wrote this one sketch about this guy who has these two people uh held captive but he's like super stupid so like he's about to kill them he's like the serial kill is about to kill them stab them and then the people are like uh you know they're trying to like and they go ring ring from their mouth they make it sound like he's like a the phone throughout my career I've had like you know Andy Daly perform that character of the stupid captor and then I've had like you know guys who are super successful I've had uh Julia sharp performed and then at one point I had Jim Carrey read it in a read through and uh so it's like the guys in my career have been have run the gamut from like me when it was writing it to Julius sharp played the character Andy daily played the character I think uh Alan Arkin son played the character wow and then Jim Carrey read the character at a read through that's an L so I was like well this this sketch has served me well yeah and that's the stuff that's the kind of stuff that I remember like you you love those little moments um that end up being you know Trails breadcrumb trails that you're going to follow towards the thing that you want to do um at what point remember when um remember when I sold my fir I'm sorry I remember when I sold my first joke to Norm um I was I was watching at home and he he did my joke I was so crazy excited that uh I jumped up you know I I basically I took my girlfriend at time to uh we went to a bar and we and then we bought those little mini like this size bottles of champagne and we just drank I was like I couldn't believe it I was so happy that is exactly what I'm talking about like like like you and all these years later you being able to say nor McDonald read one of my jokes on like I and I get it like you say that to me and I'm just like oh I'd be drinking the champagne with you right now like that is such a cool it's such a cool thing um at what point did you transition from SNL to Conan and there must have been a lot of familiarity because I mean again you guys were all on one team again that 30 Rock thing even though again those who love Letterman you know moved over to CBS and whatnot but at the same time there's still that magnetic pull um and I want to get to the night that Dave came back I definitely want to talk to that I I literally was talking to Robert Morton about this yesterday um you know the night that Dave actually came back and as far as I'm concerned christened Conan but you were there during the like Were You There When the dark times were dark and then they got lighter were you there during that transition I was there towards the end of that um what so I'm going to tell you this story The 13we commitments you were still there for that well towards the end yeah oh my gosh towards the very end of that um but um because I was I did I did some PA work on Conan yeah um and that's and and that was like a scramble because those back I remember it being a very weird um environment when when when I was doing the PA stuff because it was so fly by your seat uh the seat of your pants thing but um when I was at SNL doing the page stuff I I I made sure that I was just like as good as I possibly could be at the 8 at the 8 desk and then um I I became that for the next season I became like the key page up on upstairs so I was in charge of like seating people and making sure that VIPs got where they needed to do and I was working with somebody on the SNL staff who was super super smart and Incredibly organized her name was AEL Cohen and uh I was just when she said to do something I was like I did it you know she said jump I was like how hi you know she was like it was her job is to coordinate all that stuff and she was like very very you know Savvy and smart and I just did whatever she did and it came time where they they were going to hire uh receptionist for the next season and I believe I was going to get a chance to get that job but I had to wait the whole summer to you know and not work so I took the Conan receptionist job because it was literally like 40 weeks out of the year as composed to like you know SNL which was which was different you know not that they ever offered me that receptionist job but like I believe I could have had a shot at that um and maybe it would have changed things I don't know but um I worked at Conan and that was different when when I went there it was a different vibe SNL obviously had been established it was like you know for a lack of a better term they was like they they never spared any expenses you know they would like you know you'd come in oh they would have these famous Thursday night you know writing sessions and they would bring in food from these restaurants it's like they make you know your picture in your mind oh they went out to KFC no they went out to the best restaurants in freaking New York City and I would go up there at TH you know on Thursday nights late after everybody had like basically went into their offices and I would be eating scraps but it would be like you know freaking SC I'm the best food of my life anyway and me it was an abundant too but um so what would you I'm sorry I I di no no no just the idea of going to going to Conan from SNL and you went there the the the like yeah SNL did re tool after after you know when when Norm's company came and and whatnot they had to kind of the es and flows right but Conan was a completely different Beast because I mean he took over for late for for for David Letterman he took over late night and in my opinion kept the spirit if late night had a had a was a franchise that Dave built the spirit of the show late night certainly transitioned over the tone was different the host was different yeah of course it was different but the tone was certainly there was a through line I think that's a huge part of his legacy is that he honored Letterman by uh by doing that and I don't know honestly I don't know and I was spoiled because I I worked for SNL you know my limited experience at time I worked went from SNL to Conan absolutely positively con and even as a stupid you know whatever 20-some year old I was able to see like the comedy and the signature of the show was was abs absolutely such a priority to Conan and and and and his close staff that was without question I I I've worked at number of shows uh like like like like like 20 shows you know who who were pale imitations of that where the commitment to that tone and to that um that signature just never measured up to what Conan did you know they it was like everything revolved around that like you know they they had to be fun you know they were funny in that way and and if you read about this and if you look at the documentaries and you know you hear the podcast interviews you know Conan was like okay Dave did found humor we're not doing found humor because that's Dave's thing yep so right way Dave did found humor like he revolutionized found I don't even know they didn't even exist before I mean I'm sure it did but like but not like that yeah that that was amazing the [ __ ] that he did absolutely and Conan was like we're not doing found humor we're going to do written sketch type [ __ ] weird [ __ ] like that but zy still with a still zany 100% authentic to him and that is what I think when people look back at at his Reign um it more you know that'll be a huge part of his legacy and deservedly so he was um you know again take it for what this is worth but I always found that he was an incredibly a smart editor like on the floor he would edit things like in real time maybe maybe it was just maybe I was just impressed because his brain is like three times the size of mine but he would everyone talks about how smart Conan is incredible editor boom boom boom boom he would make you know uh in rehearsals rehearsals were um I'm going to say this and maybe I'm not remembering 100% rehearsals were generally fun and funny yeah um uh when I've worked on shows sometimes rehearsals are very unpleasant you know but rehearsals were fun with him and here's the thing too like and this is something I tried to bring on and I think I do with every other job I've ever had in my life was they the the guys who worked on that show on Conan the writers they they were all kind of like my heroes like they were so funny and and cool and cool to me that um I you know they hardly ever did anyone ever almost without exception was not was dealing with the writer is always a pleasure like they would come in they would make a joke you know I I looked up to those guys and still do in many cas um and have you know they shap the way that I approach the people that I work with you know because I saw them do that so that was it was more than that's what we're fighting for you know we're fighting to when you're trying to get those jobs you're fighting to be in that environment you're not fighting to be in [ __ ] to people like no go be a go work in [ __ ] insurance you know what I mean like I would work you know some of the recent jobs I would have you know I would I'm always you know you're trying to be fun have fun all the time you know and I'm a Believer Chris that uh collaboration kicks the [ __ ] out of competition I just that that's always been a thing to me um and not just because competition don't get me wrong I'm a sports fan and I love I love I love hardfought competition but I also love team sports and I love watching my team come together and collaborate to compete and and and to me uh there is no feeling like when you have the Synergy of so I'm working on a project right now um and and and and and there's a group of people that are there that all have this reverence for show business in this time of Show Business and and it's it's it's sort of Dave related and and there's no better feeling than when we crack a code of some sort whether it's a tagline here or just a little edit of the of the of the pitch deck here or just a little and and you all feel the same thing and it was so and so's idea and you're celebrating this is so and so's idea and this is a and it's going to take us to that next level it makes us feel that way collaboration there's something about it and when you have it in that creative Spirit at the highest level I mean my God what a feeling that is I can agree with you anymore you know uh that is a something that I you know that I learned and uh I took such pride and enjoy in I I was like after ID left Conan you know and started to to be a writer and a producer in the in the world of entertainment I had the opportunity to be a headwriter for a number of different like award shows and the staff that I would bring in I I'm still to this day I talk about you know the people that I worked with and how we kind of work together to build something and I don't know if you want to I feel like I'm I'm just have a diarrhea of the mouth right now but like you know this great what a podcast is I I remember one time um I was working with you know when I was writing for the Video Game Awards at Spike TV I was I brought in Kurt Meer who was a insane person but a tremendous writer John gabas who is also insane and and hilarious just literally his presence is funny uh D dius was one of my writers he's gone on to do great things and he was he's just talk about a crazy comedy nerd he's like the depths of his mind are insane Nate bergi was my [ __ ] writer my God all these guys in one room and I remember we were working I Nate Bazi was a writer for you on the video was it the Video Game Awards or was it for a different that was for that man that's cool yeah and he was you know he God he's a funny guy and I just saw him and Dave I just saw Dave interview him um in La a couple of months ago and it was very interesting to see it and and actually uh one of the uh the premise of the back and forth interview and they didn't I can't believe they didn't record this thing which makes it even more precious uh that I got to see it live but as Dave and Nate were going back and forth one of the things was uh Nate didn't quite make it on to late show and but he did make it on to Conan and and so they actually showed a clip of him on Conan and Dave of course takes the opportunity to say how much of an idiot he was that they didn't book him and all this sort of stuff but I mean you talk about a guy whose trajectory uh you know and and to to to realize the Echoes of this thing that one at one point he's in a comedy he's in a room a writer's room with you trying to come up with jokes about I don't know Halo or something like that at that point you know um he was uh even though he was like green at writing for TV he was definitely he was so like and Kurt brought him to me and Kurt is like the most insane cynical comedy person but he was like this guy's we're bringing him in so I was like of course you know know and um I remember like Kurt and I were working on this piece for Sam Jackson we we wanted to do and this is back in the day I was like um we were doing a piece about the lack of black characters in video games and every time you see a black character he usually plays as a thug you know in Vice City or whatever and uh we're pitching this to Sam Jackson who's the most intimidating person in the world and he's he's on it could be the blackest man on the planet could be and Kurt wrote this line that I'm so proud of to this day we were talking about Sam Jackson was gonna make classic video games black and one of them was uh was Frogger and we changed the character from Frogger to l frog frogged Hameed it was like this Muslim Frogger character and then the line that Kurt wrote for Sam was uh now people cross the street to get away from him and Sam [ __ ] no notes he took it and he [ __ ] nailed it and I have it on I have it on my YouTube page but like that was like our room coming together and and Julia was another writer for like a couple of uh couple of years and they Curt and him would write monologues warm-up jokes you know basically the opening monologue for uh for Sam we would all write it and Sam would do it and um his you know Sam Jackson is a tremendous voice it's like literally uh his his Cadence is just can do anything so working in and just to build on you the collaboration thing was was is an enormous part of all this stuff and it's the it's the the cream it's it's what you you know you can get get to a place where that's working that's where that's it I mean that's that's like the boss level you know yeah the boss level that's a perfect perfect uh analogy to use especially considering the previous example uh uh B it's it's funny um Ben zansky who was on here who just absolutely is so to this day grateful to you and and and uh um you know others have told me about that as well you have obviously taken that spirit that was given to you um and it's so cool because there's so many stories of this you have some stories of holes at this point you know to give color into this world of of of of the people who who worked at these shows but they're few and far between they actually do add color to the story because most of the story is like like Steve O'Donnell the legendary Steve O'Donnell um you know I've had literally over a dozen people tell me oh if it wasn't for Steve O'Donnell just seeing me and saying oh and and and putting a hand out and and and pulling me up I wouldn't be where I am and and and uh and he was exactly like that when I when I met him and you have that you obviously had that Spirit from some of these people who uh were entrenched in these places that you wanted to be that did the same thing to you and you took that spirit and have done the same thing Letterman's um you the culture of his in his company it's the same thing that that happened a lot Ben said the same thing about you and um and and and he talked about when he came into Conan and it was when he came in it was after the dark years it was after the um you know the storm had sort of passed and now it's like okay we're going with this guy and Tom Shell's revers his position and all that sort of stuff and he's like it was amazing like because he's working with this big crew of grateful people like he's just like the pressure is suddenly off a little bit um can you talk to that a little bit and I want to do I I do want to talk about when Dave came back because I believe if there was a keystone to that Avalanche of of that I think Dave coming back might have been sort the Keystone to that uh Dave christened you guys so three quick things about that um I got my job as the receptionist at at uh Conan I had come from the sixa page desk where I was just like you know again I was just doing everything I possibly could to make a positive impression I was trying to be as dependable and and just you know you tell me once respectable to every single person and then I got myself lined up where where there was an opening so a few people helped me get in there Kim Simon was one she was the previous reception that moved on to a research position and Mike hamaki who's a legendary figure I call him the hammer but he was hammy for everybody else he he was a you know he was like the guy who was like my conduit up and down so I I when I got in there um I I kind of entered at that point and so the show I came in really at the very tail end of that uncertainty and I'll say this like the show may have been more certain while when I physically started working there but um the remnant of the trauma that the staff had had to go through were definitely still there like I dealt I I dealt with I'm say this I don't know this is like a weird thing to kind of say like I think that my like when I went in there even though I was a [ __ ] up and I was not a really good receptionist and I was a terrible research person um I might have been an unmitigated dis I might be the worst research person in the history of that show I have to be uh but when I was there it was very traumatizing because um there was a lot lot of darkness in the production area of the show not I'm not talking about the writers who probably you know they I'm not talking about them at all they were always you know they had a creative job and it was but on the production side the people that I reported to there was a lot of trauma there and it was a lot of darkness and it was a lot of like you're on your own you're I'm dropping you in this [ __ ] water and you know I was clueless and there were not very um uh sympathetic to my position also at the same time I had to grow as a person to get in there so I was and I was like I felt bad about like asking interns to do stupid things like send them down to these video houses I was like okay hey can you please you know I I had to learn the ropes myself but um the I'll definitely say this though the the vibe of that that survival Vibe was was still very much present and I feel like I uh kind of came in and and that's when I'm going to say this and people will probably laugh who worked on Conan but like I feel like my like I began to turn the tide on that a little bit because the people that followed me the people that I helped get in there uh whether it was hiring you know Ben is a phenomenal dude and oh I love that guy from the beginning you know we were friends and our friends you know Ben was like you know but Ben's class of interns were like the first interns that I had and we you know I brought in you know I hired Jason chelmi to be an intern and we got we became friends and I was friends I shouldn't have been necessarily friends with interns I should but what was I know I was just coming I was almost an intern myself like but like you said though you're a fresh arm you're a fresh Arm coming in to this to this team that's played you know 15 games in a row and suddenly you're coming in as a fresh arm to kind of help change the vibe as the vibe has already started to change you know and they were doing things a certain way and they weren't necessarily happy that I my my way was different so it took a little bit of time to kind of get in there and then people kind of left and I kind of like you know the people that came in from me were were a little like Jason and and and Ben you know and and and you know the pages that followed me you know Kim Kim was the person who helped me get in there and hammock he helped me get in there but then we started to bring in like people like Christina Welden and and Sharon Hardy and uh these were all people that were either interns or pages that came in and I'm forgetting some but like Nicole sabini came in and she replaced me I think Ron M was so the the so the vibe and the energy kind of started to change and it became the the I'm sure it was traumatic to go to work every day and literally not know if you're going to be working next week especially back in those days um because like there was not the internet there was no internet it was literally you know it was all analog so like that I think that traumatized a lot of people especially in the lower level like I'm sure the executives were okay and they were going to be fine eventually but everybody else was hustling and break you know it was like a real palatable feeling so like for that to change and for you know and again when I when we worked on the nth floor that's where the offices were the place was falling apart and it was never repaired like so there's a remote that that Conan did during the first strike where he's going around he's showing the holes in the ceiling and I think he shows like a couple of rat traps and like holes in the wall and yeah that's what it looked like like nobody nobody would come up and fix that stuff because they were like these [ __ ] guys aren't going to be here in six months [ __ ] you you know it wasn't until like after I left that they remodeled and and and basically put money into literally into the office but the office you know they would be like someone would spill spill a pizza the in the drink room and that would would be there for a while you know so and then there were papers stacked all over the place you know it was not it was like it would looked like a it looked like a a moving company you know yeah so um did you ever see the pickle by the way what do you mean the pickle okay so there was a pickle that a big stuffed pickle that has uh translated from Late Night with David Letterman it was there at the very beginning and it's still to this day in the writer's room of Seth Meyer's office did you ever see the big giant pickle sure I did I probably proba did you just didn't necessarily know the the thing um um what was your favorite part working for Conan um so I will say this just to tie up that little thing sorry I apologize yeah yeah yeah no I remember when the show started to make the turn around the corner is because um they used to have uh SNL does this too they have pictures of like great guests and in Great Moments they capture from these amazing professional photographers and they put them up on the wall well when I started at Conan there were uh pictures of Conan at the desk with guests and the guests were like uh either you know people like dick kavitt who was not you know an A-list guest at the time or an SNL person who Conan was friends with but when we got I think it was um I think it was Robin Williams was like the guest that kind of made us turn the corner yeah because he was somebody who Conan didn't really have a relationship with and we kind of got him on the show then you started to get guests and those pictures on the wall that had Al there was like two Al roer pictures or one picture with Conan and Dr Joyce Brothers uh you know then it started to get replaced it was like Conan and Robin Williams Conan and Tom Hanks Conan and Angelina Jolie you know then you started to see like a transition to okay now the show is clearly um accepted and and now we're like you know now we've kind of turned the corner because of the quality of guests that we're that we're getting on the show so that's kind of like a way that we found out that that you trying to tell which by the way is perfectly in line with the lineage of late night you look at Dave's first couple years and I mean on the very first show Mr Wizard you know and and and you look at you look at Late Night with David Letterman's first few years were um they was so scathing towards uh show business in Hollywood right many of the people that they they would have on uh were far removed from that world and you had more performance artists and things like that but then you get to 85 is you know you're three or four years in and every cool celebrity wants to come on the show at that point because it had turned that corner the exact same thing happened to Conan the exact same thing and Dave's experience was a little bit different because like Dave often had um at least uh you know at least a visual you know just on a on a telegenic uh you know you know element He sometimes would have those um those conversations with g that were not you know sympatico you know he had to share conversations you never kind of knew like when something was going of you know be a real tension filled moment and that kind of like was a good thing for for because because you Conan was a little bit different he didn't really have a you know disagreement with guests necessarily he just kind of like would empower the guests to to kind of take off and you know the Norms of Dana carvey's you know that that would just kind of like own the segment and just kind of blow it up on their own but yeah he'd wind them up and let watch them and let them do their thing yeah whereas Dave very rarely did that but again this is the part that I you know uh we we celebrate the this this this one fact on this show a lot and we can do the same thing with Conan in a different way Dave okay he stand up yeah but it's a discipline he learned because it was a means to an end he was a broadcaster Conan yeah performer you know legendary you know in the in the hallways will do a show with a mug and a pencil and do something you know he'll make up a show and what not he is a performer but he's not a performer he's a writer but then thrust into the that chair you know it's and so there's a little bit of The Stranger In The Strange Land kind of a thing for both both of these Titans where they kind of came at it from a different place whereas you've got other people like Leno you know fullon standup and now I'm going to do this this job and I think that there's a sensibility that's different in that regard uh Conan the writer Dave the broadcast and then they come in here to do this to do this show I think that I think that that has has something to do with the Alchemy of their success as well yeah 100% And they have these prior you know uh again I was lucky I got to see you know Conan was I didn't know it at the time but Conan was extremely accessible too like I remember like every year he would invite the staff to his place for uh like for Christmas drinks or something you know and then we would I would go to Conan's apartment uh once once a year and uh you know they would you know make you know I would get frisked before I get in there but um you know he would have people over for drinks you know and and you in his beautiful apartment I remember he was living in 72nd Street at the time and you know uh I'm drinking a free beer in Conan's apartment and he's walking around being social and shaking everyone's hand I'm like hello Conan you and I are friends you know uh it was just like you don't find that in other jobs so that was like one of my first jobs so really it was my first job and uh you know I thought like oh this is probably something that happens all over doesn't ever you know so he was he was accessible I would be in an elevator with him he would ask me question you know we weren't friends or anything but like you know I remember like talking to him uh we used to play basketball he tells this or this story's been told a few times but like uh people on Conan's staff would rent out um basketball City and we would all kind of go down there and play basketball on Mondays because there was no show y taping on Monday and um uh I would go and play and sometimes it would be uh like a few people on a court but you know at a time it grew into like you know 12 people on the court you know we had like five on five full court games and Conan would come and um I remember one one day Conan was you know as soon as you got the ball like if I was playing anywhere near him I would like take seven steps back I'm not gonna injure the freaking boss of the show but some dude like I think it was a writer gave him an elbow to the face once's lip started to bleeding I was like what is going on here whole game stopped and there was a lot of [ __ ] we did as a step oh and here's you ask me like the best parts there's not really one best part but like I would say that the thing I took from the job most is like this idea of of how to how to be a how to produce your own things as a writer because they all did that I didn't do that there but I saw them do that and then the other thing I would take was we did a lot of [ __ ] as a community team that I didn't realize you know that that makes that show definitely unique for sure and um one of the things that bill was a you know was a guy that everyone talks about he was the prop master and he was he's a legend and he was a you know as a as a man he was like so he was very nice to me and he was nice to the people that I worked with he was nice to Jason they had a great relationship and Jason ching and Bill would bring out uh every once in a while and and now that I think about is probably was a system to this but he would bring out this cooler this enormous cooler that was the size of a [ __ ] car it was huge it was so long and he would fill it would be filled with ice and beers and it was like every so often maybe every quarter he would we would all have beers in The Prop Room I'm talking the entire show like The Writers Conan that's from that day we would all just kind of drink beers and when I was in my 20s I was just like yeah I'll drink a freaking beer yeah let's go you know so I would be just drinking beers and you know we'd be you know there and people from SNL would kind of come down sometimes or like we like one time Bruce Springsteen was on the show and he came in and he had a drink and everything so like it was just that that kind of a thing where he would they would just even you know today you get a lot of like money counters and you know your budgets are strict and you don't have EPS like doing that at Conan maybe it was a they would just say okay we're going to do beers today or whatever and it would just happen you know and and um you know it was awesome you know those types of like moments uh and I didn't know again at the time I thought it was like something that happened all the time but when I went to other jobs I was like yeah no let's do this and they're like huh what um and then like the weird things that you would see that have always scarred me comedically like Bill T for example they did this the the bits that I Lov the most were the ones where they would say like here's a mascots for colleges that never made it and would be like from the University of Clemson or whatever uh it's the Panama of horses riding real horses so it's like dressed as a horse and he's on an actual horse or like you know they would bring in this is another thing like they would bring in a lot of actors comedic actors from the uh from the community in New York a lot of UCB people and uh by the way um the US be people themselves before they got big were always on the show like Amy polar used to do little sister Amy poer was such a great she was so good in that bit and obviously she's a [ __ ] comedy Powerhouse and oh she's an alien I swear to God Amy P's an alien like she just the perfect comedy alien like I I adore her she was such a nice person too she you know she was totally cool all the time but she did Andy's little sister and she got they crushed that and those writers like you know the Brian Stacks the all those writers were so good they were like my hero you know and they all kind of brought something different to the table and I just kind of like you know you know I I take that you know even the segment producers like the Frank Smiley and the Dan Ferguson and and you know those guys that kind of worked it there uh I kind of take that experience uh with me everywhere and even to this day um I will look back at something that um was done at Conan as as like a you know the way that um I communicate with my graphic designers and jobs that I have now is how I communicated to them or how I learn to communicate to them when I was working at Conan I worked closely with the graphic people for a while because I was a graphic coordinator and I was terrible at it but um you know um that that was like a you know and I suffered in that job in a sense because I may I remember I lost my paycheck once and um I I I I misplaced it I was like oh my God and I went to the the people in charge of the money the unit manager like I I lost my check I lost my check and they were like don't worry we'll print you another one we'll void the other one and we'll print you another one so they got me another check and you know and then I found that check like years later it was like in my drawer somewhere and I was making like it was something like for a whole week's work of where I did like you know 80 hours or easy 60 hours I was making something like $232 I was like in New York City like it was crazy I think one check was like $216 I was like how the [ __ ] did I make that money you know I think I was getting paid $ 350 a week for for a while yeah but um but I was doing it you know and I was doing a ton of standup and I was doing standup with the writers you know I would see them out doing standups so it was like um it was interesting so anyway I'm I'm taking up so much of your time with these [ __ ] stories but U it's not both this is why we do the show like again uh I love long form I'm I'm a fan of long form uh you know everyone who's telling me giving me advice helpful advice by the way and thank you for the people who are giving advice you know telling me how to strategically whatever I'm just enjoying the organic experience and part of the reason why the organic experience is doing what it's doing is because it's long form versus what everybody wants now which is the short form stuff I'm going to get to some pants stuff but it just feels like the right time to start talking about your podcast because it is a genius premise to me um well that's very kind of you I appreciate that oh when I saw okay so yeah when I first saw it I'm like oh this is this is great because I have I'm a Canadian right and so I have referred to um you know lovingly the dumpster fire that is the polarization of my poor poor brothers and sisters to the south of what is going on uh over this last decade or so from a cultural but political I think is what's really driving it the polarization is absolutely Bonkers and how many times have we up down there on certain I know up here we're like it is a reality show down south right now it's a reality show what's going on I know I wish I could laugh in a in a in a in a way that doesn't have that doesn't drown in worry but yes yes yes 100% know it's and so and so the idea of it being a reality show and you decide to take uh that extra step and and throw your creative muscle into it um you know talking Trump the American Emperor after show and with the premise that it is it is a reality show and you're going to come in and do the Talking Dead thing or do the whatever and it's it's it's G to be talking about the show and and that's the point of view you're coming from and I heard it I saw it and I heard it I'm like that [ __ ] is a genius that is a very smart premise is that just you or is it a collaboration that uh that that that came up with this well first of all such kind words I really appreciate that um it's an idea that I had uh that I thought was going to be a segment on a show that I was working for at one point okay and then um I thought a perfect late night bit isn't it isn't that a perfect late night Jo yes it is yeah but then I never got it never got past like the the initial pitch of it but I always it always bothered me you know that I wanted to do that because I'm look I'm so I'm I'm gonna use the word sick of but you know it's a little dramatic I'm I'm a little sick of trump is such a a Malignant Force you know I'm sick of this idea though of the comedy about him of explaining a position and then you know having a lecture part of it and then kind of like kind of coming in with a punchline yeah you shortcut that completely with this here don't you so that is you look that's there are incredibly talented people who do that and they do that extremely well and The Daily Show does it and Seth Myers does it and everybody kind of does it but this is like I feel like there's a way like our approach is like when you you when you see a movie with your friend or when you see like you know let's say you go see a Marvel movie or you go see what you know some movie and you talk about it afterwards uh there's such an easy way like when you're making fun of the movie uh you're you're kind of like you're you're you're you're kind of doing it from a place of agreement like that was outrageous I can't believe Hugh Jackman who's like 57 has to wear take you know take his shirt off a hundred times in the latest Deadpool movie and then you talk about like how that was oh can you believe they did this and and it's even better when you see a crappy movie you know back in the day when we would see a Steven Seagal movie half the fun was like tearing it apart you would watch it over and over again to see you know he pull up in a car and and behind it you would he supposed to be in New York City behind it would say like welcome to Canada you know all those things so like that's the approach that we kind of take to this so um it's like a Prestige drama that we're seeing and it takes away like when Trump does something horrendous like um for example you know fill in the blank but like when he sure his stance on abortion or whatever uh you or without getting so political let's just say like he's eating the dogs and cats he's eating the dogs eating the cat instead of instead of having to present to you as an audience like why that's insane when it's clearly insane we just say like you know we've already we're just taking it at face value was saying so why would a character say that well clearly he's he's battling Madness you know and and you're able to talk about what he's doing on its face and and fill in the background to it it just gives you it's just a new way to make fun of trump and and not just Trump but also the political uh the political cycle that we're in I was gonna I was gonna say that it's because it's not purely like it it feels like you guys will take a shot at anything that is insane out there that is like wait a second like this is ridiculous that this is our reality the funnest part is if you believe that Trump would say that they're eating cats and dogs you would also in the context of a TV show well you'd also have to say well when they decided to go with that line they also they P you know they turned down other lines what about the other line oh they said uh White Tres drinking from spatoon oh yeah that Trump could have easily been on the stage saying that but he chose to go with this line about eating cats so like we've done you know we like there you know and then there's also things that happened in real life like uh when we were trying this idea out we would talk about like plot lines that were abandoned and I don't remember if you remember this but like like when Trump was president the first time time around he there was a report that he wanted to build a moat outside of on the border and fill it with alligators yeah yeah yeah yeah you know that would have been great TV how come they never did that well there was too much expense involved yeah the budget the budget on that we we wanted to do it but you know you couldn't C the alligator right it's like the writers and producers are and then we we do this backstory this fictional backstory of the actor who plays Trump and his name is Sir Lawrence Davies he's a he's a crazy British actor uh whose contemporaries are Sir Anthony Hopkins and and McKellen you know and he came from this he's just had this wild he's like a a combination of what's his name uh you know the famous writer who um I'm blanking on his name I'm seeing his face he's like a Ernest Hemingway type you know writer who's just lived this wild and crazy like a Peter UL life where he just years he just drank he doesn't remember Oliver re you know all these like legendary British actors that's where the school that this guy came from so he has all he's he's insane and and playing the Trump character makes him insane so our latest episode we're talking about his upcoming contract is coming up and he has all these demands and the producers and the show writers uh made a point they told everybody not to tell the Trump character you know Lawrence Davies that that the friends actors made a million dollars per episode because you'll be in but it somehow got back now he wants a billion dollars per episode and also contract demands he wants the uh he wants the buff the buffalo population of United States to be restored to its original you know uh you know number pre-industrial so we we're having fun creating the story behind these these these actors that come on and then I think um our next goal is to bring in an actual person from the Trump orbit and talk to them like they're an actor so I'm trying to get somebody in luckily for me these people are like so hungry for like attention that I could probably get somebody in but it would be like you know Michael Cohen would come I was gonna say Michael Cohen would be perfect for something be like I'm sitting here I'm sitting here with uh Rich you know Richard greens Beth who plays Michael Cohen on the show like what and all I need is like six minutes to talk to the guy when you when you get your pages uh is there anything that's left that shocks you he's like I know what you're talking about you know so like um yeah it's a lot of fun to do and we're going to do it until the election uh once once a week and then we're going to try to I guess you know I don't think Trump's going to go quietly if he loses so we'll probably get you know to the end of the year oh they'll be aftershocks I'm certain I'm certain they'll be aftershocks so so um to me like I look at I look at a guy like Donald Trump and he to me he is literally a method actor like I I I see that or or a standup or a combination of the two like to me that guy is a lot smarter than than he passes himself than that character passes himself off to be to me he's he's 100% I I I want him to hear about this so badly Chris like you have no idea how bad I want for you there to be some sort of trump her about this show and CU I think he would get I honest I think he would get it like I honestly I think he would get it I really really do um he's definitely insane enough to think that oh wait is this a TV show that I'm on he probably would think that um we we do you know we talk about his uh background as an actor and how he studied with uh he studied with the Masters like you know uh UDA haogen and uh uh straussberg and me there but he did it all literally at the same time so all these guys are in the same room yelling at him to do different that's you know so we have fun going into like the you know how mad he is like how insane he is and then you see like the evidence whenever he's on TV you know I have this clip I play where he's like I hate flies and it's just like okay he's like Brian Cox in a succession but like you know completely out of his mind like insane you know I uh I I okay so who okay you say we who's the team who's who's doing when I worked at kilborne I shared an office with this very this very funny man named Ted Jessup who um who I didn't know before I got to kilborn we became office mates and writing partners and then um Ted has gone on he's written for kilborn and Ferguson and then he wrote for Family Guy for many years and he wrote for Roseanne Bar uh he's written for I'm I'm forgetting I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of his uh credits but he's a one of the funniest people you'll ever ever in your life have a conversation with he's just absolutely hilarious and when I met him you know we kind of became friends because we were sharing office but we would also like kind of watch you know Law and Orders and and Hill and um U NYPD Blues sometimes during the afternoon before and he would just like improvise these hilarious you know off the TV he's just such a funny guy like he'll make you cry you'll be I remember I went out to dinner with him and my wife and another friend like another woman and him and he just spent like 40 minutes at this beautiful dinner in Los Angeles at this beautiful restaurant uh and he was just talking about how he wanted to order it was an Italian restaurant he wanted to order a fajita because when when you get a fajita you get so much attention because people see it and they hear it and it's like a big [ __ ] and he just like 40 minutes on ordering a f and I was just like oh my God people were like I was my sides were hurting he's just a very very funny dude and when he's on the show I write an outline for the show what we're cover I don't think he even knows how to access a Google Google account so he's just like he's just like ripping the time yeah and he's just like oh and I'll bring up something like oh yeah Davies as we know studying oh of course and he's with and you he just he just have the ability to kind of like riff and make these stories up and you know he's a he's a very he's just a very funny dude who thinks in a certain way and you know he talks different than I do because he's he's much more um eloquent in how he how he speaks so he sounds like a Critic and and you know he's just he's is a very funny dude so yeah um I'm very happy to to do it with him and we're uh we're having fun it just uh you know it's a it's it's cool you know and we make sure that we get our premise because the premise is hard to sell a little bit so we we make sure that we always kind of have to lay it out you know so we make up some story that's like you know kind of Rift off it's the Stan Lee thing about comic books right you go to you would say this to people all the time um you got to remember every comic book is somebody's first comic book and so whether it's at the very beginning of a Batman where it t where there's a onepage whatever you know revenging uh you know Justice on his parents being killed Bruce Wayne is the Batman like like you know you have to have a little bit of especially with this premise but that being said this is why I want you to get an audience as fast as humanly possible because if that's the case and you're able to go down this path with people accepting it and what not I just feel like it could turn into something like I I you know listening to it's just on the podcast platforms right it's just on uh Apple it's on YouTube is also it is on YouTube okay I accessed it through uh through the podcast platforms but but um I see animation that uh you know when you think about some of these the things some of the things that Co bear is doing with the the animation stuff that they're doing over there that kind of I like I see this being something that really really really has legs uh talking Trump the American Emperor after show right thank you so much and and the American Emperor is the name of the prestige HBO drama that we're talking about so that's the Sopranos that's the breaking bed that's the succession show that you know and we this is talking dead of the American the American Emperor yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the Weekly News The Weekly News cycle is that week's episode so like you know next week's episode Trump is going to be whatever the [ __ ] he's talking about now that hurricane [ __ ] that he's doing or you know it's just like it's F and then they bring in new characters it's like oh we get a new character so um let's talk about this JD Vance character what are they trying to do with that he's different than Mike Pence oh yes you know so um you know we analyze it like that and it's just a fun way I think it's a little bit easier to to digest way to make fun of trump and we made fun of Biden you know we called him a basically our take on him was just like he's clearly this man is is a CGI invention there's no way that a man could be this old you know humans humans live to 105 Max I have pictures of him like in the 1800s or he's an adult you know what I'm saying so it's like we just like you know we find a take on somebody and and in the context of the show and we have some fun with it but thank you so much no are you kidding me no no and my mind's been spinning like ever since I've seen it uh uh uh I mentioned Jud Appel earlier he just did a spot on Kimmel and and and during the uh it was only a one segment deal which is too bad to me I love Jud um but he was talking about how like and this is gonna come back around to your show he was talking about how Stormy Daniels was in The 40-Year-Old Virgin and and and and and also knocked up as well but in the 40-year old virgin she was like uh featured and and and how lovely she is and nice and all this sort of stuff and she he told some anecdotes about she talked about Trump back in the day way before any of this sort of stuff started that to me is somebody who could guest on your show very very very easily and I think that she would do it so hopefully somehow some way yeah I I just i' I've had four or five of them about your show since like it's literally by way so beautiful our mutual friend Jo Joanna Jordan if you're listening I'm calling you soon to to get some advice on how to bring one of these people in isn't Joanna Jordan just amazing yeah when you and Ben were talking about her u i I was like oh that's that's so great that she you know and I forgot that she you know she has this she blazs this incredible career and you know I worked with her recently in a couple of shows um you know back when TV was an industry that people were hired in yeah right yeah so yeah so it's amazing like it is crazy and that's another thing it's like so many different you know you're you're cross path with so many different people and um you know it's it's it always and and I've been fortunate maybe I'm you know maybe it doesn't work this way with everybody but so many people uh their experience have informed mine and made me smarter you know I'm smarter for knowing all that these people I'm smarter for understanding why Joan I would pitch a certain guest or why you know an EP would act a certain way or you know what the interest is of this headwriter and or this host you know so it is a it is a very interesting thing I just wish that um the industry was still alive yeah you know what you're you're preaching to the choir uh on a whole bunch of levels there I for for sure um I have literally created whatever it is that I've created by hanging my hat on um the talent and generosity of others you know and and and uh that's what I love about doing this show I love that collaborative process and I'm a nostalgic guy U Morty and I were talking about this yesterday you know when I was asking about hey do you remember were you there the night came back Conan came back or Dave came back uh to Conan and he made that a crazy joke you know how how did you get this show and Conan like he served up a volleyball and you can tell it was not a segment producer volleyball I swear to God it wasn't that's one of the the questions that I get in my head the nostalgic kick you know is there a chance that a segment producer helped set that moment up I feel like it didn't how did you get this show you know it was a show rting contest I came in third it was the perfect response that there ever could have been and used on every uh every clip package that we ever had and right when Dave came on the set that day there was it was absolutely there was an electricity to it I was told I was there I was told to normally we get our guests from the main entrance of you know part of my job as a page was to go down and get the guest and I have a plenty of fun stories about doing that but Dave came in on Sixth Avenue which means you're walking a you're walking basically the length of a city block to go get him so like they didn't I didn't know he was coming no one you know and I was told go get the guest go get Dave you know like so I go down there grab him and Dave like normally I welcome the guests and you know I give them like a 15-second preamble Dave knew exactly the drill so he was like hey he was super friendly super cool didn't need me to tell him if you need anything upstairs you know all that stuff he's just like let's go he was he shook my hand he was cool in the elevator he was wearing his khakis wearing like that long sleeve t-shirt I I brought him into his room I was like if you need he's like thanks Ben to you he wasn't dismissive but he was like he didn't need to know that I could get him anything he just knew you know and I dropped him in there and everybody in the hallway was electric you know and then when he came out it was electric you know and it was like one of those great moments that um you know just had like a like a total energy to it you don't really I can't remember the last time like you get those incredible moments like that and um I met Letterman like for 15 seconds or whatever it was in that walk and I was just like wow this is so cool I can't believe it you know and and again if he had been in any way like a jerk I would have been like don't meet your Heroes but he was like so cool he was just like 100% like make you know totally cool like he didn't have to be as you know nice and yeah but he was and and it was just like I couldn't and I was just like afterwards I was like I went home that day and I was just like wow man that was that was pretty [ __ ] awesome and I worked at Conan and all a lot of the peers that I or colleagues that I work with you know throughout you know there was another group of people that worked they went through MTV and they worked at TRL so there's a very tight-knit group of people who worked at TRL but I was working at Conan so I would walk home to the port authority and pass the TRL Studios all the time and I would subsequently when I worked at MTV afterwards meet a lot of those guys and they're very tight-knit and they're you know I went to a wedding of a dude and two of his men in his in his uh you know were were were in his groomsmen you know who would their connection was from TRL so like that was like another route to go but uh you know I had been I remember that day I was walking past and there was all these kids outside of the TRL studio and I was just like walk you know walking around them saying wow night Letterman was on the show today or like the night that Norm did that crazy thing about a Carrot Top you know you know I was just walking home you know having experienced those moments you know and and even like funnier things where the writers would do like crazy bits in the audience or like you know mccan would come down as the you know as Preparation H Raymond or Tommy balacha who's like another [ __ ] hilarious hero of mine would be the gashes wiener or they would do the hot you know all that stuff was just like masturbating bear that was just like you know you talked about this in one of your podcasts that idea of like being in the hallway and a guy dressed as a llama walks by you that was very a lot of [ __ ] like that happened and that was the funnest times because like I said with that panamine horse and a real horse thing they would line people up you know I remember one point one of the weirdest things I've ever saw was they were doing the staring contest that was some of my favorite bit the Conan staring contest and um with Chris alers was a writer on the show and they put him in a a moon you know a Spaceman outfit you know so he had a helmet on like Neil uh you know as man on the moon type of thing yeah yeah so he would come out and uh you know the idea is like Conan and Andy are having a staring contest but Andy is seeing all these [ __ ] up things behind Conan that Conan doesn't see and it's supposed to distract him and then The Joke Box in that by the way is you could do anything that's the writing technique of that that satellite TV could be anything that's why those bits were so great y so anyway um so the astronaut comes out he plants the American flag the K goes yay and then Chris alers was the writer who did this takes the helmet off and it's Hitler and the audience goes boo it's like completely organic the audience like Che I remember the moment I had forgotten the moment and you just reminded me of the moment and like that is one thing that I loved about Conan like I remember uh hanging out with my friends uh we would watch Letterman we would watch Conan that was our thing back then you know and and I mean we're early 20s like I mean I don't even know if we were early 19 years old and and you know the first friend that gets an apartment right and you're always over there playing video games and stuff like that because it's like they've cracked the code of Independence let's do this and and you watch uh you watch late or you watch Late Show then you watch late night and you know there there's a there's a bit going on there's confusion on the stage and then suddenly maror MC cheese shows up and he walks in and you're like why did for no reason whatsoever you know no relation whatso just there's Mary McCheese and he walks in and you're just like this is you want to be there you want to be in the rooms creating that um you have done a phenomenal job today Chris talking about the spirit of that and the and and the the chemistry that builds exactly those moments that we're talking about here uh I this is a weird thing because I have so much Arcane knowledge in my head about all of the worldwide pants Productions and all of those things so this is where you're at now then you end up going to Late Late Show eventually you know you know there's there's a bit of a break in between um from everything that I've heard and now don't get me wrong Craig Ferguson is probably he might be my third all time like he's I The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson I have such a special place in my heart for that my other golden age of watching these things is late show Conan on TBS Ferguson um you know because we have the DVR by this point and now I'm able to watch all of three of those usually in the evening because I'm West Coast and so if I started at 9 o' I could with fast forward I could watch all three of those shows and there was a two-year period where that habit was there that being said everything that I know about Late Late Show and the transition with kilborn to Ferguson and all that sort of stuff it wasn't the environment that you're talking about at Conan and I'm being as respectful as humanly possible because of course I worship at the ground at worldwide pants walks but at the same time it was a different deal and I'm super curious the ju position for you between the two the two uh careers working for late late and then working for Conan well I had written uh I was writing monologue jokes for Craig kilborn while I was working at Conan as a research and I was getting a lot on um and also I had friends who were working at uh kilborne who were were probably helping me in that um so I had a so I had this experience where I was like basically supplementing my income by selling jokes to uh to Craig kilborne and I would like write these and I would write you know I mean I was a you're essentially you're a faxer yeah but then it's email at that time so I was like getting stuff on like almost you know almost daily and then I would like kind of take a TW T and make a make a different type of joke you know uh instead of a traditional news joke or traditional Weekend Update type joke I would kind of say now it's time for Craig to you know blow your you know Craig ruins your buzz and then there would be an art card that comes up and Craig would be like oh yeah enjoying your marijuana there oh who who who's behind you oh a cop you know and kind of like he would do like these little vignettes within the in the news thing so I kind of ask question about that can I ask a quick question about that did you write in the kilborn character voice yeah um but at the time I didn't really know that so much so uh you that's something like I just kind of thought like he he had a so kilborne here's the under under under reported story like kilborn is like a very kilborne is a great guy like he's a great guy to work for and he's once you understand his entire presence he's a he's a pleasure he's hilarious to be around because I don't want to say this you know in know you know it's not like he's playing a character it's just like that's the way he is like he's I got he is that kind of person like I be walking I remember when I first started like the second or third day I was walking in the hallway and um I was kind of like had my head down and kilborne was coming up the hallway and uh I didn't see him I was like looking down and uh we almost bumped into each other but he knew that I was a writer and it was like my third day and he just kind of looks up he like hey what's up man gu like know I was like oh [ __ ] you know this is my boss but um you know so I I also have to say this that may be a little bit disappointing to you is that um I I don't have the same opinion of Ferguson Ferguson was not a um was not the experience was different and uh Ferguson was um definitely it wasn't a it was a different experience say I'm saying you were there in the early years though right was there from the start with Ferguson yeah and he was very um we found him to be uh so there was just a lot of there was a number of red flags that appeared to me uh you know uh and I'm not the only person who worked for Ferguson in that era who who did not have a positive experience with him oh no yeah no no no uh there there there was a lot of eggs broken to make that omelette and and I mean I'm talking about The Omelette years is the years that I thought were fantastic it took a while to get to that place and unfortunately the eggs cracked you know it's the reality of life it just I mean I almost never would say anything like like this but you know um and I'm I'm going to speak from my experience but like you know he was like very um competitive uh so like uh for example we were looking for his voice you know the other thing is like when you get a late night show when you're the named the host of The Late Night show you know you as a as a professional I would imagine that you're going to bring in people with you that have your back like so I'm just making this up but John is on this Netflix thing he's going to bring in five or six of his people at least that he knows that he could trust that that are going to help him form his voice fuson didn't bring anybody in literally nobody so we were there trying to to to form his voice for him and then we found that he would get very competitive in sketches so we would I remember this super talented woman uh have lost touch with her but her name is Lori naso she used to work at SNL as a writer and she was a comedic actress and we would bring her on to be Craig stalk uh who who would to be this comedic element where someone who's just like stalking Craig Ferguson everywhere he looked and she the whole idea is like she loved him and she was trying to get she was constantly getting through security and and asking him all these silly questions and she would do well because he's like a very comedic actor so the first time we did it it killed it was like Gang Busters and Craig did you know he he did the sketch and it was great the second time we did it we noticed that Craig would like mess up he he lost a couple of lines and Lori was trying to do our best to kind of like make the best of the taping part of it and it would work okay but it was like not as good as the first time and then the third time we did it Craig would like not he would totally miss a bunch of cues and we were like this guy feeling competitive with Lori because Lor's getting laughs and service of him on the show so like we started to realize that he would do that every once in a while so this is terrible I mean are you kidding me like how many of these people that we love had the wrinkles that needed to be kind of ironed out especially at the beginning you know you think about you think about and the thing way he got that job too like I mean the competitive well it was kind of thrown thrown into it there was like five people and then it went down to two like him and Michael Ian Black and and and I mean the way that he got that show was almost exactly what you're what you're talking about like like and again Conan his first few years I mean he handled it uh very very well um very opposite of how I was going to say they all you know the internal pressure must have been Bonkers but that being said yeah I mean at the beginning you got these massive massive Growing Pains that that everyone feels it's not just the host that's feeling it everybody's feeling these growing pains so yeah because if you're a writer on that show you need to get stuff you know when you're a writer on a show you need to get stuff on the air especially on a show like like that when you don't have a relationship with the host you don't you know 13 we commitments are you kidding me yeah you have to get stuff on and and and the other thing is like we would we would we were comedy writers who were forming comedy pieces and one of the things that I used to enjoy a lot were creating desk pieces and I created this desk piece called Craigs news stand review where we took a news like if something big happened in the news it was on the cover of Time Magazine like the pope is elected you know we would see how other magazines covered it through their prism so like how would how would uh ebony cover you know the pope being elected or how would you know so so we would just show different magazines take giving their take so it's like you know Ebony would be like passed up another black guy again you know and the next you know whatever the next you know you uh High Times would be like cool man smoke you know like we would just it was a simple bit with like with five different art cards and you know we were just trying to create for Craig for Craig Ferguson like um like a basic program that he can kind of do comedy bits in so you know that's your job as a as a writer on a show like that but then if you're going to encounter a host who thinks that you're trying to um take his voice or or or overwhelm him it's like it's a trust thing TR it's literally a trust thing yeah kilborne never in a million years did that like he was just like you know he like like I said back in the beginning yeah um when talented people encounter other talented people they enhanced that that Talent you know so that was my thing and then when I got you know I got let go from that job you know I I you know Ferguson had you know had said like stuff wasn't necessarily cool you know when someone leaves a job and so anyway I'd ha to put a damper on your love for him but no no no no no no no no everything about like the fascination I have with the with with the worldwide pants of the company of David Letterman and Company is is it includes everything it includes the UPS it includes the Downs it includes all of all of that stuff and not everybody's going to be um on the same page from a complimentary standpoint but at the same time the respect that you are speaking with here it's you know when you compare this to what some of the staffers have done in the treatment of say Ellen degenerous or Jimmy Fallon or things like that oh let's go talk to Rolling Stone and let's let's go throw that's not what you're doing here the respect that you have Chris is is is it what you're saying is classy uh but talking about times that were not um the easiest times and when you were there I mean it's pretty well documented that the transition and Craig himself when you look at what Craig F Craig Ferguson um you know the transition that he had to those golden years that I talk about you know to me the golden years were like right as Josh Robert Thompson is ascending well that's a long time into the Run uh you know before the gay skeleton robot even shows up never mind you know goes beyond a couple of canned phrases Beyond you know and talking to Josh we I had Josh on Josh and I went two and a half hours or was something like that like I mean so the evolu sometimes you're at the place where you got legs and a tail and it's not good and it's it's it's um you know and that's okay but the way that you're talking about it is is extremely respectful so well we had like it means so much to me uh to deal with people like we had a lot of guest hosts come in and sit down and and do like a few nights during that as we prepared to for the transition from kilborn to Ferguson and like we met people like you know Joe Buck he was great you know and we met people like uh michaelan black and Dam Fe of course was like one of the best and um you know these people were like so easy to work with they got it and they were cool like I remember we did this thing with I think it was was either Joe Buck or Michael lean black where um he was it was around Christmas time and we were talking about dangerous toys to keep these keep these away from your kids you know how they always have those Consumer Report things but these toys that we had were just super inoc innocuous so like the premise was like he would bring out a globe and You' be like this is super dangerous and people like why how's that that dangerous and he would like cut the globe open and inside was just nothing but cocaine it's like all Globes are filled with cocaine you know and you know he got it you know he did it and he was cool and I remember I did a bit everybody was playing solitire on their on their PCS back then and like and there were also like a slew of like poker shows so we did a bit where where uh michaelan black was was playing you know he was doing he was debuting a new Solitaire show so and we sat in his office and we made sure that the solitire thing came up on his black glass and we filmed this int intricate bit and um you know he was great you know and so was Daman and Damen did a bunch of stuff and they were awesome and all these other guys kind of came in were cool and I remember we pitched something to Craig Ferguson once where um the show 24 was like a huge thing at the time and we were like uh look this show is super exciting you know you see the hours like five and 5 to 6 is but you know some of it's pretty boring and we cut to like the hour on of 24 from 3:00 a.m.

to him it's just like somebody sleeping like this guy needs his rest you know a dude in a bed and he's like I don't understand why this is no you don't understand it's it's because he has to rest you like nothing uh I remember one time CBS at the time had had U CSI on the on the air and people were complaining that CSI was shot too dark like like literally like it was like a story in the newspaper like the the filming of it was too dark for people underexposed kind of thing you're just you're not so we were like we sold these night vision goggles that you could watch CSI with you know just like and Conan L the groundwork for doing silly [ __ ] like that all the time you know that kind of influenced you know I was right when I was again I wouldn't do this now but I was so young like I was really write trying to write for Conan in half the stuff I was pitching to Ferguson you know yeah that makes sense actually um because you know again where the show ended up you know you talk about the pantomime horse like I every he had he had secretar would show up at the like like there is there is certainly certainly some of that I have two more questions for you we can do this all day I can't wait to do this more as far as I'm concerned I've gained a friend today uh I can't wait to do whatever I'm collecting as many of these friends as I possibly can and I want to collaborate somehow iifting machine so yeah yeah oh this is great this is so great um I can't wait for our next conversation whatever that looks like but I do have two other kind of prepared questions um uh uh the first one and I both of them may fall flat but that's okay cuz I love the conversation Chris you've been so generous with your time today uh but the first one has to do with again let's button up Ferguson here uh do you have any Peter Lali stories of any sort are there any Peter Lali stories that that that that you might have um even yeah I saw him walk through the through you know walk walk past me that kind of a thing Peter obviously um has a legacy a unique you know there's no no other real way to say it that that's going to give it any more Majesty it is a completely unique uh through line Carson all the way down you know the the the the adviser the very close adviser daavid Letterman and then of course moving over and and running kind of pants West um any Peter Lali stories of any sort well uh Peter Lali when I was working there was uh obviously he's very revered um in my tenure which was like a you know I want to say it was like close to three years over there I didn't have a lot of interaction with him because he he kind of had his own he had his own office and um he wasn't involved in when I was there in the day-to-day editorial as much when when Ferguson came in he started to get more involved so um you know I just saw him as a figure who was basically a um you know a walking TV Legend and um you know he um you know he always help himself you know in the highest you know Poise and you know I wish I had a more you know I had a few exchanges with him that were polite but never really like um uh anything in crazily in depth so you and Peter lell didn't go get drunk and go to uh whatever no who did who would have dying to walk into his office and be like hey tell me some McMahon stories K how much of a drunk was it you know yeah how did Johnny really feel when carcino was on the air you know like like like that kind of yeah absolutely tell me that Joan Rivers Fallout you know there you go you want to pick that brain uh the last thing that I wanted to talk to you about is um for me I mean I can make something up here but oh and and and maybe we will um you know the show's not over no I I I I just appreciate that anytime I have the opportunity to talk about Peter I do and and and again I I it's so to me the idea that you have a production company owning two hours of network television every night like it is just it's unprecedented it'll probably never happen again unless a you know a force that is so a Kardashian force or something like that becomes you know something that could save the industry or something it just isn't going to happen again um but the other the golden age for me um other than you know the first late shift was the second late shift in 2010 and and and uh to me you know you're hearing all everybody's involved now all of the shows that got uh that were created because Dave kicked open that door are now weighing in on a nightly basis um the turmoil that is happening in late night everybody's got a different place including Ferguson who kind of went the other way he kind of went Counter Culture with everybody he had lenana a show and he would you know you know but then Conan to somebody that we all have this love for and whatnot and seeing how he was treated uh I'm just curious where you were and what you were thinking during that time of 2010 when The Tonight Show and Conan's uh orbits got shuffled well I was I had been away from from Conan for for quite some time at that point um I had um I still had friends there um I bet you did you probably had a lot of friends who made the move from New York to to LA right were you living in La at the time no I I moved to LA for for fer for kilborne and then um in Ferguson and then I moved back to New York and then I moved I I spent some time in LA like subsequently um I guess Conan was still working then because um it was towards the end of Conan thing anyway um I I was just kind of like watching from afar but um you know Conan uh they uh my take on it is that uh Conan had um you know there was a lot of decisions that are that were made that um just you know I I just feel like there were I feel this way very very strongly now especially it's like when when you get involved in the business model of television at least for a while was um when you brought a show to a network a network was invested in the show becoming successful because they were putting out the money and then everybody was like geared up to you know get to a go you know have a goal of whether it was like syndication or just like stability or whatever everybody was kind of like invested in the in in the um in the in the show being successful but I feel like today the model is different like when you go you don't benefit necessarily from selling a show to Netflix that becomes a huge hit because you're not getting your your finances are not growing you're getting one kind of fee for it so like you know the seinfeldspitstain a hit show you're getting more money than for a show that's not a hit so the network is invested in for a certain amount of time at least in growing the show to his to its maximum capacity of viewership right um that doesn't that that model doesn't exist anymore so like uh when when that happened with with u the tonight's show you know looking back on I'm like well how come why where was that part of it you know in Conan's equation like where was the okay here's Conan he's our guy we we're we're Laing this thing with a lot and then but how come you know when the ratings or whatever the financial decision was made how come there wasn't that like okay we're going to we're going to increase you know we're going to we're going to try to make maximize this it was kind of like uh or we're going to bring this this guy back so um you know I I felt it was like a it was a disappointment you know and and it was like kind of a change from that traditional way hopefully that makes sense um no this is why I asked you I from like a 30,000 foot angle I was going to say I the reason I asked you this is because you were removed from it but these are people that you did know that did make the track over and lives that were uprooted and moved and and that that was that was actually the perspective um that I thought you might bring to it but the 30,000 the macro of it is also like I knew you'd have a unique perspective on it and and that's that's that's why I was asking about it um because at the end of the day and and also the late night lore in history of things that we love so much as a genre um as a and as a show too but Letterman not getting the Tonight Show led to something that was unprecedented and awesome and that is him creating the organization uh that actually competed with The Tonight Show for the very first time in history and not only that his own legacy in late show the idea of the two-hour block that we were talking about all that crap unprecedented and amazing and it wouldn't have happened had he gotten The Tonight Show Conan same deal because of what happened to him it was a different it was a different thing it wasn't just did I get the show did I not get he actually got it and then got taken away from him but now you look at what the mobilization of Team Coco during that time yeah people forget about that yeah every year I watch the documentary The Conan O'Brien can't stop documentary it's fantastic about him doing the live shows during the time where he was prohibited from being on television and and and and now you look at what the serious deal that he just signed and and his travel show is amazing and I loved his TBS show because the TBS show felt like Late Show whereas he got to do anything he wanted with no constraints whatsoever and and and I love that feeling Ferguson had a similar feeling too with CBS doesn't give a [ __ ] what we're doing you know we're going to do whatever we want you know that that kind of a thing and and and and wouldn't have happened if he would have just kept The Tonight Show um you know that's interesting so so so to me these are uh these are all fascinating things and and it's it's part of the ascent I think of these Titans that we love so much and love being a part of and and and and and even nostalgically talking about to this day part of these Titans that we love so much is how they dealt with the adversity that hits them and when everything goes left how they go right and what they do and how different it is uh when they go in that direction I thought you would have an interesting perspective on this uh Chris you have been extremely generous with your time I'm so grateful for this uh I'm going to do a real quick commercial um and you can you can you can either add to it or you can just you know kind of clap we have one sponsor one sponsor only at the Letterman podcast and that is hello- deli.com now rert G does not own the hello Deli anymore it's a year it's been almost at the time of this taping it's exactly one year since I was at New York and we had worldwide pants had the had the had the event for Rupert you could watch it on the Letterman YouTube channel there's it's like a 38 minute video I actually got to speak at that event I can't believe it rert sold the deli um but well he had to cash out eventually that's well he did and I mean gosh I'm so happy for him and I just talked to him this last week he's he's doing great um but he still has hellodd deli.com hellodd deli.com the only place for official Late Show with David Letterman merchandise Late Show hats and mugs and shirts and all that kind of crap go to hello- deli.com uh rert G himself is still running that thing so if uh it's throwback stuff it's almost 10 years now if you want any Late Show with David Letterman merchandise go to hellodd deli.com Rupert will send the order with love uh did you ever did you ever go to the hello Deli of course of course I mean when I worked at NBC and and David left uh there was still a closet there filled with some of the stuff that Dave had would give to a celebrity guests and I I tried to find it oh we never got to uh by yeah what is that no no no what is that this is a comedy classic stamp that came from uh Letterman that was in my office at Conan for many years uh basically you stamping you put this down it says comedy Classics here that's fantastic that I stole on my way out from good boy good boy I used to get those so if you go to the roer G thing I'm sure he probably has the sponges so that has the the late night Insignia on it and that those sponges are way out of print now my friend you have one of those you got one of those and then and then the cup that the collapsible cup of course is another classic so I'm sure uh yeah you could hit uh rer G's hello Deli that.com whatever it is and get your fill of those amazing pieces of memorabilia oh my gosh imagine if rert sold sponges it would be a new lease on life on the uh on the hellodd deli.com Mythos as well um Chris thank you so much for um all your contributions and I say this you know earnestly um you are a piece of the puzzle of this thing that we all love so much you know again you were a page at SNL that there are those of us around the world that look at that and go oh my gosh you're one of those people you're one of those guys and I got dinner for some of the um you know your lineage uh within the entertainment world and the writing world thank you for your contribution so far and again I cannot endorse talking Trump the American Emperor after show enough it is genius I hope I hope you have something here that really really really bubbles up and does something and uh not just not just like a like a pasta B that bowls over I hope it's like pop rocks I hope some things pop and have some really really cool thank you experiences because of this thing it's a genius premise and I hope a lot of people attach to it very very quickly um and thank you for uh you know life gives you gives you you know you get chicken [ __ ] you turn into chicken salad if you can and I think that that's what you're doing with this thing um so thank you very much for uh still throwing out amazing content for us these days thank you for taking your creative talent and giving it to all of us and thank you for being a guest on the lman podcast today Chris it's been a pleasure thank you so much for having me and uh best of luck in the future and uh this is a this thank you for lit literally listening to me uh as a captive audience tell stories like a babbling idiot for the last 90 minutes that's what we do um I'm going to do a quick outro we'll say our goodbye privately uh that's exactly what we do uh you know and the long for the longer the better as far as I'm concerned I love this stuff I love talking about this stuff and kicking it around with the people who were there the people who were a part of it the people who enjoyed it the way that uh that I and the dozens of folks who have uh have have taken the Letterman podcast and made it part of their uh viewing or rituals I'm so grateful for that um this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum coincidentally I am Mike Chisum thank you and good night overcoat and Underpants