Author Bill Carter, The World’s Greatest Expert On Late Night Television Entertainment Returns

hi I'm Paul schaer I'm will Lee and you are watching the Letterman podcast welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum all right we're not burying the lead we got Bill Carter back and uh I'm gonna tell you straight up first off the audio wasn't perfect on it okay there were Parts where some things uh uh it didn't the the connection on one of our ends was was a little um was a little hinky as Dave would say but that's okay because we had an unbelievable conversation it is worth getting it out there the vast majority of it was great um boy isn't it cool to have him on here for a second time because the first time I got to get a lot of the Fanboy stuff out of my system there's still a little bit of that here because you know I'm just that enthusiastic about this stuff but uh you know to to kind of get to the place where he he and I can just kind of go back and forth on things we talk about everything that's happening in late night right now uh from from Dave appearing on Co bear we talk about John Stewart we talk about after midnight uh the change that's just happened there the state of late night we go through that and um bill is just he is such a precious resource uh for those of us who love this stuff um and and and it's it's so funny I'm glad that this component exists where we can kind of get together and talk about this because that's the that's the thing you've got all these networks and all these stars and all these people that are in involv but then you've got the audience that made them who they are and it's kind of this deal that we all have but the audience needs to get together and talk about this stuff having bill on here to shoot the bull about uh the state of late night is it's an unbelievable privilege and he is just a fantastic mind I appreciate him like crazy so um I hope you enjoy uh now now that being said um bill has a couple projects that are coming out uh that he's going to to be announcing in the next couple of weeks here so uh but that being said the late shift and the warf for late night these are books that need to be uh you know downloaded if you if you're if you're a digital person go find a hard copy of it if you like the classic fantastic reference materials written like uh a thriller and I I mean I can't I can't emphasize that enough The Late Shift obviously centering around uh the Dave and J uh little dust up from back in the day and then um and then Conan and all of that stuff and then the war for late night uh talking about um Conan's uh you know late shift 2 I call it all the time you know that's when Conan um you know got and and and and lost The Tonight Show uh and the aftermath of that but then also talking about all the other players that have risen up or were were rising up in that time uh including Kimmel and John Stewart and Steven colar and and and and and and Ferguson as well and and all these other people we talk about John Stewart coming back to the Daily Show now these books in so many ways are actually more relevant today uh as as as history periodicals um than they were back in the day talking about current events Bill Carter an absolute Gem of a guy we have a fantastic conversation despite a little bit of audio issues fight your way through it folks it's worth it the Letterman podcast is proud to present Bill freaking car bill it was such a kick to have you on the first time um the only thing that's better about this is that you came back I can't believe it you're back on the Letterman podcast Bill Carter um an absolute maybe maybe the um uh foremost mind when it comes to everything in the inner workings of late night uh and its history uh two-time author you know uh on the subject itself with uh the late shift and the war for late night go and get them everybody should go and get them and read them multiple times as I have thank you so much for coming back on the Letterman podcast my friend it's amazing I still have something to say on this subject it's it's it's tireless it's but I'll give it a go but we do this is one of those things where where where where us uh I mean I don't know if we call us comedy nerds or late night nerds or whatever it is that we are but but this is something that is endlessly fascinating I think the landscape is changing we have certainly seen that at uh you know recently another election cycle coming up that always um changes things and and reinvigorates and reignites the late night scene when that happens and uh it's gotten particularly intensified over the last few cycles of this um I wanted to start by talking about I haven't I've actually re I haven't released this video I've made a video about it but haven't released it yet and we haven't really gone deep on Dave coming back on Co bear um that was a that was a major event I think uh you know in front of the camera and behind the camera there was a lot of moving parts to that um I am so curious as to um what your reaction was to Dave uh coming back to the Ed svan theater for the first time since he left it back in 2015 um what was your what was your thought on that well I I thought it was exceptionally good I mean I thought it was really a great hit that he did on the show I mean he's a great guest Dave he he's always a great guest and he prepares and he's funny and he's sharp and all that but the fact that he was back in the on the stage you know tell told me something because he wanted to push that away he he really did want to keep that in the pths in the rearview mirror so to speak and the fact that he did it I thought he's kind of loosening up you know what I mean I think he's kind of loosening up about his legacy and things like that that you know he never really wanted to talk about he never really you know he always diminishing that you know like oh the dog and pony show and all that but in his gut he sort of is incredibly proud of it and I I think you know he's he's getting warmer to it you know with with Barbara gains as well and and things like that so I was very encouraged to see it and I thought Co bear was tickled as heck I mean he really was and you kind of see this this reverence that that people have for Dave the late night world has for Dave which you know it's only comparable to Carson I mean there's no one else has is in al maybe John Stewart is kind of around the fringes now though so you know we talk about Legacy in in in late night and and it's so interesting having the track record that we have uh and and and that that long view of history and how we are at the place now where we're you know I think I think it's safe to say that a lot of gen act have always said David Letterman is my Johnny Carson and that was in comparison to watching our mothers and our fathers watching Carson compared to our feelings for him and I think that that sentiment been around forever and you'll hear people say that to Dave all the time much to his shagrin but now we're actually seeing a time where he is the elder Statesman um in in this and and the comparison to Johnny Carson is getting much closer the major difference being uh you know when Senator Franken was on one of the very last late shows it was in the last month I believe um he he you know did a famously predicted that Dave would become an eccentric recluse and and of course that's a comparison to Carson but Dave kind of went the exact other way and and and and with my next guest and and some of these other uh projects that he has done um even the Netflix Comedy Festival I mean I got I got tickets it's happening in May um he's going to be doing uh the last time he did the the show with the young upand cominging Comics including uh Brian Simpson who's bit huge in the comedy world now and he's going back to uh I think they're calling it the Giants of of of of Comedy Dave's Dave is really out there for a 76 year old guy who has nothing left to prove um he's out there a lot isn't he yeah that that is sort of what was remarkable to me because I would have tended toward the reos prediction myself uh because he socially Dave has always been not comfortable uh you know in in social situations but he's very comfortable as a performer and that performer made him come alive you know what I mean he as he as he said you know I never feel anything more alive than that one hour day I'm on the on the stage and I think he probably misses that you know um Carson missed it too but he didn't do anything instead of Carson doing anything he wrote jokes for Dave you know that was that was sort of how he got his you know comedy muscles working and I think Dave wants to stay fit that way you know I think it's important to him to still have that working his brain working that way and I I do think it's enjoyable for him and I I don't I can't speak to it but I imagine he enjoyed that coar performance a lot I I I think he probably thought it was invigorating you know well um you know I've had a few folks that are kind of close to the situation that have reached out and and apparently you know Grand Slam home run on on everybody's uh as far as everybody is concerned um the thing about Co bear and I mean we can go back to Strike Force 5 too I'm I assume that you listened to all the Strikeforce 5 episodes them but I did listen yes they were incredible incredible um of course the ones where where where uh Dave and then we'll talk about John in a minute to oh yeah and I think that's probably the other thing that he does you think about all the appearances he's making um he was on Neil Brennan's podcast unbelievable uh unbelievable episode I mean Neil Brennan asked a lot of the questions um that I think folks who love your work uh would have asked you know he he really um went into some of this stuff but but but him appearing on Strike Force 5 him appearing in these some of these Kevin Hart's uh podcast he appeared on and then and then colar um asking the question to Dave on Strikeforce 5 you know would you be willing to come back to the Ed Sullivan Theater and actually like literally hit the question head on you got to wonder behind the scenes if if if if you know there was permission for him to ask that question or not um I I talked to co bear when I went out to um Rupert's retirement party uh the night before I I actually had a Q&A session with Stephen and that was the question I asked him I said listen when you asked Dave to come back on the show and when you recounted your Les moonves story did were you scared doing that and he said absolutely he was and it felt like he was if you listen to it there's hesitation in the voice y you know absolutely um the way they devoted the entire show to Dave including who do you want on as the musical guest which is something that uh you'll remember back in late show I mean Sheila and Paul and so many of the of the staff cared about Dave's musical taste I thought it was just an absolute Masterpiece uh you know every segment to Dave no meanwhile there was a monologue and then we bring on Dave for every segment up to the National it felt big time it felt like a it felt like a big moment in a world where Big Show bit uh television moments don't exist so much anymore it's a that's a really good point they don't exist like that anymore and but for those guys let him let him has always occupied this special space for comedians he did something that they all admire they just think you know he just changed the rules so much and and opened things up so much that they they they're sort of in awe of him you know and and that's why they're a little afraid like even Co bear who you know I I think you know can stand up and in front of George Bush and make fun of him you know at a pres at an event he he was a little trepidacious because if you go there with they Dave you know you tiptoe around him a little bit you know and I think that reverence is extraordinary you don't you know Comics tend to rag on each other you know what I mean they do they and and you heard that in that podcast they you know they picked on Fallon mercilessly but yeah you know but effect I think but I Dave Dave you don't do that with Dave they don't you don't you don't hear them doing that with Dave and and he just somehow broke through in a way I don't know if anybody will ever do that again I mean we'll change the sort of the form form of Comedy that significantly yeah I I I could not agree more with that um to Pivot just a little bit and and I would love to know your insights a little bit John Stewart making the big announcement that uh he's going to be coming back to the Daily Show for Mondays by the way huge shout out to our friend mine smithberg we're thinking of her right now love her so so so much uh as we as we talk about John fantastic isn't she she's just unbelievable I adore her I adore her mind her Brilliance and uh her wit as well and um yes I love meline and uh best stories you you'll ever hear I know it know it and I'm trying very hard to uh to actually get her to come on camera and tell some of those stories um you did for the story of late night still comfort food for me uh I I I've got it on the DVR and I still watch them from time to time and the podcast behind the desk Webby awardwinning podcast Mr Carter yes that's right um highly recommend that she's actually in that I think there's more clips of her in the podcast than there are absolutely yeah yeah you get to expand a little bit after did the after we did the documentary some of the stories didn't get in and I was like I got to get I got to get mine tell the story about the Sheep hurting dogs and I mean I and the cologne and the cologne oh my God the cologne you know so yeah so mine is fantastic anyway yeah all the best to mine absolutely uh so let's go back to John Stewart here I mean you know somebody who was associated with pants along the way um you know his MTV show Dave being a guest on that show and and um you know when Tom Snider and we'll get to him in a bit we had a a fan request to talk a little bit about Tom Snider with you um you know a lot of folks thought okay here's a guy that might look at doing Late Late Show but then they went the other way uh Craig kilborne starts The Daily Show and they do a little do side do you know I think there was a holding deal with John Stewart with Worldwide p is that how it worked and then John went over to the Daily Show yeah so I haven't looked at this in a while but basically uh they they made a deal with John uh and I think John was set up and believed he was going to get the 1230 show um and you know I think people felt like Dave decided no uh and you know there are theories that Dave was like uh that guy's really good on a young comic and I don't need that on the air after me which I wouldn't be surprised if I he's never expressed that to me but um I think John was a little disappointed that that didn't happen uh but it opened up the The Daily Show to him so you know that W up being a great great move for John and he and he proved why he was GNA break through somewhere because he he is really Dynamic and uh I as I was saying except for Dave he changed late night the most I think um because he really brought that format and that point of view and just the approach uh that was really fresh and and different and became you know sort of like the defining you know Dave was sort of the defining watch for a generation and for John it was that way and people in the Next Generation watched The Daily Show to actually get the news yep they they thought I don't know what the rest of the ass is going on but but this guy will tell me what's going on SS extraordinary really so to me it's pretty exciting that he's going to come back and do this yeah you know uh uh the Legacy being Carson um famously um you know kind of right down the middle make fun of everybody but kind of lightly compared to the climate that we see now um you know you had a guy like dick kavit come who's friend of the show as well uh hi Dick um you know come on and and and he kind of counter programmed Carson in that regard but really at the end of the day not a lot of uh folks in the late night uh comedy realm um you know would do that Dave kind of stayed the same way you know was was was very much uh that of uh you know I'm I'm a registered independent you know was very clear about that along the way he made this amazing Legacy that people are following changed comedy forever who's the next guy that did it you're exactly right John Stewart John Stewart's the guy who kicked the door wide open cit's path and said let's let's let's criticize let's look at some of the uh Ridiculousness that's going on and let's make it part of the of the the the main conversation in our late night comedy and now look at the people who have emulated him and and and you know Co bear was a spin-off to that in in in in that uh um in that regard so yeah two very he was and he was already and he started as a correspondent on the show so you know that that link is pretty obvious but uh yeah I think he but John John made made it safe to have a point of view yes I think what you he made it safe to have a point of view uh and you and now if you don't there something like you know Fallon got into trouble because he tried to not have a point of view you know and that hurt him initially and his jokes now are more pointed maybe not as much kiml coar but you know they are uh so yeah I think that's that's a big Legacy of John Stewart definitely what do you think about him coming back to uh to like I obviously you're gonna watch anyway but is is every Monday night are you gonna be watching this thing St in February is this musty TV for you absolutely must see when John comes back I'm a little intrigued what he's GNA do in terms of um just whether he's going to be the same or whether he's going to try something a little different I I I'm intrigued by that um I think you know you have to speculate that John in his you know head in his career was like I've done what what I had to do with the Daily Show and he left the Daily Show thinking that he was going to move to another phase of his career which has not really developed I mean he didn't really put something on the map like that for sure um but his timing was curious because he left just as the Trump phenomenon was beginning in politics just as it was beginning and he and he and Trump have a vicious hostility that goes back way back and you know he you know Trump makes these overtly anti-semitic references to to steuart you know you're really John leeo right and you're running away from your really vicious stuff and you know he calls him face V clown it's way under Trump's skin so there's something there so you know that's going to be part of this but I also think John is like he didn't get had his licks in on Trump he really didn't no and now when it's coming back again I think it's like you know I I compare it to I mean you John's like a prize fighter who stepped away and there's some guy that you know needs to be stopped so he's decided to put the gloves back on uh that's kind of my sense I haven't talked to him about it and he would def he would deflect he would never say that because John always talks about you know I'm not really a political guy I'm really just a comedian uh Etc and really that has not played out because his his positions now are much firmer and out there but um that is very exciting to me I'm I'm really excited about how he's going to do it now he's going to do it once a week so it's almost like a Saturday Night Live it's you know what I mean it's not a nightly show it's a little it's going to be a little different that way and uh and will the guests be overtly political people uh you know that sort of also interesting he would those people but uh he he's he's a very thoughtful guy John very thoughtful him looking forward to it very much so um you know you compared to Saturday Night Live I think about John Oliver and what he has done I I I the idea that he will have a week to invigorate his next episode um yeah I feel like there's going to be a lot of depth there and and and you know I could see it being both I could still see Jon being that guy who has no problem picking on both sides and I don't I don't want to make this anything you know this podcast is neutral ground we're very very very much neutral ground I think part of it is the fact that I'm Canadian uh I don't want I don't want to create Division and polarization and all that stuff I do note though when the last I believe it's the last time John appeared on Co bear it might be the second last time he comes on and he starts talking about the lab leak and and and colar you know kind of the moment it happens coar kind of gets up and starts sort of almost uh stopping JN talking about these this thing right and I don't think the one thing I do love about JN is he is willing to if there's a stone that needs to be thrown uh the target does not matter you know whichever side he's on that's one thing I love about Jon but yeah I mean obviously um you know with this election cycle both he and Letterman both they they they left right as the Trump machine was going and and so many people have asked the question what would it be like if Dave if Dave got a chance every single night to make fun of of trump I think he would have fatigued personally that's my that's my uh uh my opinion on it uh it's a big difference between George W bush and great moments in presidential history um than there was with with with Donald Trump and the true real polarization that he kind of created that's my theory on that but it's gonna be very interesting to see uh John with that with that pulpit and and what he's going to be able to do with it here's something that's worth observing though because Sir John knows his audience is going to be anti-trump he's he knows that and he still went I remember he he would occasionally criticize Obama Y and and the audience would like kind of like be uncomfortable and he would say no you gotta listen to this he would like he he would point that out he would say no you gota listen now he's going to go after Biden for for things I guarantee it I guarantee it I mean they but to be fair the other guys the theme of being an old guy is established and that anything that comes up in that realm is going to be fod for sure you know Trump is doing the same thing or worse in what he's saying you know you're like what is he talking about like sometimes but that is a vulnerability and would not be surprised at all if if Stuart is on the is in the position of well you know why do we have both these guys you know what's what stuck with both these guys I would not be surprised at all about that and John has always been particularly focused on the media's role and how the media portrays this and how they're they're they're not they're not serious enough and they're not you know and they're too frivolous about it and I think we'll see a lot of that but the thing I also INRI remember what the daily show was really great on when and John was there was their research staff was fantastic and if some politician came out and said something he would find the opposite they had said and exposed the heck out of them you know and I think that is going to be very interesting how he handles it but the show was really a serious journalistic show in a lot of ways and when I stay to John I had a stage event with John once and I said John why can you why do you run from the idea that you're actually sort of a journalist as well as I'm not I'm not that I absolutely reject that I'm not that I'm a comic that's what I am I'm a comic yep well I mean he I don't think anybody think he's at at he is the equivalent of a political cartoonist that's what he's that what he's he is doing that that's what he's doing and it's definitely something you that could be legitimately in any form of professional journalism and I think he has done a lot of things that are journalistic so um I I think we'll see even more of that when he has a week to work on things oh this is why this is why you are the what what a comparison this is what an amazing comparison you think about this generation now now uh where memes are are are a huge part of of of of of communication whether it's comedy whether it's making points or whatever that generation probably doesn't understand or have the reverence that they should for old school political cartoons you think about political cartoons back in the day as to what they are and the power of them uh the influence of them and and that is a really really great comparison he's like a living uh uh political cartoonist and and and yeah that that that is a perfect Perfect Analogy uh it's going to be great to have him back to see what happens it's going to be great to see if if if if he is given free reign I assume for him to come back and do this I assume he's going to get it he's kind of got that kind of almost Letterman is clout where if he's gonna come back I assume it's gonna be on his terms well well not just that I mean he's list gonna be the executive producer of the show in Toto so I think his fingerprints are going to be all over it I find it curious they didn't a host they didn't know John was going to do this I think they would they were ready to to put Hassan ham andaj in the job okay I think they would have done that yeah but but I also think not naming host or having a permanent host is a bad idea it's a bad idea because you know I think some of the people they've had as guess are good they're they're they're pretty good but you watch these shows and you get Affinity with a person ality yes you know and he was talking about being a guest on shows like this he said in our world we don't say I'm going on late night I'm going on the tonight no I'm doing Dave I'm doing Jay I'm that's that's what you're doing association with the host so this this permanent you know one night a week or one week at a time think was not a great idea for that show now I don't know what this means I mean what happens if John really likes doing it again one of the reason he stopped was his kids were little and he really wanted to participate in in you know the childhood of his kids yep once with him uh when he doing Oscars I I was interview him like a couple nights before the Oscars he was in LA and he had to stop the interview so it's bedtime got I got to read stories to my kids and I was like this guy is very involved so I believe that totally but his kids are older now and you know he if he wants to go back to this he maybe could do it and and they couldn't find anybody better I mean he's 61 well Dave was 61 he had much time left you know absolutely plenty of time left so it's not impossible I just think the idea of doing it maybe it's a bit of a grind but you know I think every one of these guys has found virtually everyone I can't I'm trying to think if there's an exception has found that there is no job after this that is comparable there is nothing you can do that is comparable to this and if you if you're one of the established Giants of this you know I mean Dave clearly has been in the fringes of because that was who he was that's what he you know he's not gonna do something else so I mean you know I you know I've talked to Kimel I'm very close to Kimmel yeah and he says you know we all hate this job but we'll never ever give it up like you know it's like and I think that's true of all the so it's it's such it's a very fascinating time Mike yeah I agree and to springboard to Kimmel for a second here um I was gonna talk about him a little bit later but this is a good way to uh to go back um I'm gonna do it through a segue of Robert Morton though when Morty was on the show uh he always gives you a shout outs by the way he uh he appreciates you very very much he told me he told he told a couple stories uh one about a party uh where he drunkenly came up to you after an AR cidio Hall you you gave a favorable comment about C Hall and he came up to you and gave you hell and had to apologize after I appreciated him for telling the story um but one of the things that he said on the show and we'll get back to Kimmel in a second here with this uh that I hadn't heard before and I mean I've read latei so many times he had said that there was a deal in place early on in late show to have Rosio Donal on as the permanent guest host for late show and I don't know that I had known that before and then and then at some point uh someone had gotten back into into either Dave's year or they the decision was made well no you don't give up the chair uh especially this early in the Run whatever you don't give up the chair that kind of a thing Kimmel's gone the other way and and and has all sorts of guest hosts which I find absolutely delightful it's one of the few Throwbacks to Carson um that I think exists in modern late night today the idea of the guest host he's basically the only one doing it um the Rosie O'Donnell thing that wasn't in late shift was it no I don't think so I remember it vaguely uh because one of the things that was sort of clear was that you know Carson was able to do the Carson didn't do that when he started no he was able to do that when he became the king of late night yes so you could have a guest every Monday and no one would think oh this person's and at some point with Dave it would never have happened it would never have happened with Dave but at the beginning Dave obviously wasn't secure like he became later I think that was a that was a risk you know and you know eventually they went to that format of taping two shows in a day yeah so he he can have an extra day off y uh but but I think nobody but Carson was secure enough to do that Jimmy's in an interesting position he he takes the whole summer off yeah he heally says I need this I I need I need a real vacation I'm taking the summer off I have little kids I'm yep and you know that that could be risky I guess I think it's not the same because I I can't imagine someone would come on and would be like he's on for a weekend he doubles Kimmel's ratings I just don't that that's not gonna happen that's a Larry Sanders bit yeah that's exactly I mean you know that that whole thing Larry that it's very inter men Sanders because when when they first were doing uh the The Substitute host it was supposed to be Gary and Jay Leno we're gonna out of that and that's how Jay got to do it every week isn't that funny how uh you know these things life imitates arts and some of some of these things that are there but I love the fact that that that Kimmel does it I think it does show how secure he is in that gig uh 21 years I mean you know I love you did a you did a really good job in the war of late night um going through the War 4 late night I should say uh going through Kimmel's Ascension and where he he came from I love this guy right from the start we we had a we have a comedy channel in Canada which isn't Comedy Central uh but it has some of the some of the stuff that goes on there so I watched uh Mano but wind Ben Stein's Money I loved him on Win Ben Stein's Money and and it showed he had um you know that reactionary uh wit similar to to Letterman you can tell he was an acolyte of Dave for sure with with that uh that exercise um and and and he really has paid his dues 21 years I don't know if anybody would have called that at the beginning of this thing with him when he was following Nightline and all of that they really gave him time like Conan original Conan not tonight show Conan they gave him time to actually incubate and to uh and to become something and he really has like yeah like he's kind of the Elder man in some ways right now it's interesting he is he's the longest running host but it's interesting because I was there the week when he premiered I was doing a magazine piece for the New York Times I spent a week with him that's how I really got to know him and he was of course so into the relip because he was a fan of Dave and he wanted to drain my brain of all that oh yeah we hit it off and I and I thought this guy has what it appear what what really makes these things work which is yes you're witty and all that but he connects he connect next you know like and it was very likable and you know he was extremely nervous and uptight of course he was and you know he had he did things that were I don't know if I ever tell you this story but you know when he first did the show he wanted to do the monologue sitting down yep you know is really not you don't break the format very easily let's no and he didn't have a open neck shirt with a white T-shirt showing and I thought doesn't look right it doesn't look right but um but he finally decided that he would do the uh stand up ABC executiv talk to him there was all kinds of stuff going in the background but when he first did the first night I think he did standing up and throughout the monologue he did this and I I immediately sent him an email I said listen you're going to make the audience sick they're GNA get seasick seasick yeah you can't rock like that and he he St stopped after one night he stopped after one night and you know and so the point was he wasn't so one of these guys locked in I know what I'm doing I he was listening there was an ABC executive who said you know you're not standing up she said when if someone comes to your door would you go greet them or would you sit sit at the couch yeah and wait for them to come in no you stand up and you go greet them that's part of the reason you do that you're standing up and you're greeting people and he said well that makes sense okay that makes sense and a lot of that is it's funny I did a I did one of the segments of the podcast on the format why the format is what it is yep it's very hard to change the format Seth Meers is doing it behind the desk yeah because he he was The Weekend Update anchor and he was comfortable that he also doesn't wear a suit and tie which I find interesting but partly it's because think it gives Seth a little bit of a of a difference and uh and I do think it works for him so it does you know and it's cool that some of these hosts have had given uh been given sort of latitude to find themselves Craig Ferguson another one stopped weing the tie for the while and all that and and and under the expert uh guys of of of Peter Lali Peter would give him some of that Latitude to try and change things up a little bit and come back to it um Seth being a great example of that yeah and and I can't endorse uh your podcast enough uh behind the desk the story of late night it's it's uh you know search it out there is an episode that talks uh all about this going back to Johnny to Steve Allen I should say with the desk and and where that came from why it's so powerful um you know you even look at uh at at times where they tried to monkey with it uh you know wouldn't it be funny if part of the reason the Jay Leno show didn't work because they weren't allowed to have a desk um that that the 10 o00 show I mean it's it's awkward when you see them not in that situation and yeah it is there's just something about it that's um that's awkward uh let's speaking of taking the desk away um you know we we just had Annie Snyder on uh 29th anniversary of late late Show's Inception just happened and uh talking about Tom um Jame when James Cordon uh you know left there you know long break in between because there was a huge strike and all of that sort of stuff and it didn't kind of get the start that it was uh it was intended but after midnight with Taylor Tomlinson is here and I'm super super curious um you know where at the time of this recording I think we're about two weeks into it uh two or three weeks into it uh I'm curious what your thoughts are on after midnight so far well I've only seen it a few times I haven't watched it routinely um and one of the reasons is I've have my own history with this is don't make too many judgments early on these shows absolutely youve just got to give it time absolutely if a person is good at it they're going to find it they're going to find uh she is a well regged comic now I mean she's got she's doing big big shows big arena type shows um so she has that you know in her golf bag that club in her bag that she can do that uh I think the format is tough I think it's a tough format because um essentially there's a joke every 30 seconds or something yeah right uh joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke and I know from watching back in the day when Jay would do 25 30 jokes in his monologue and I used to say to him why do you do that many jokes oh I think the like I said but you know some of them stink you know they do you know if you have 25 jokes and seven R of them are really good right you could do a 10 joke monologue people say wow that was a great monologue but if you if those seven or eight are in among 18 not good ones you lose the impact of the good ones so that to me makes form extremely difficult and it doesn't look organic because you know these Comics aren't some of it is witty but I mean so I think that is a little tough now in the previous iteration of this show yes when they when they did uh uh at midnight I guess it was called right it was called at midnight um I think it improved as it went along I think it improves as it went along and I think they'll find that they have to do something a little more organic so it doesn't feel so rote you're like and now you tell a joke and now you tell a joke and now you tell a joke and I'll give you the points it's a little too roast for me yeah needs to be more organic I think she need to have more of her um you know and the comic mix is also tough to pull off I mean you they they seem to have like one kind of known comic and two unknown Comics yes kind of is how they're working it and uh and that's also interesting and challenging because you know when you would see a comic on with Carson or or or Dave or something a lot of them were unknown comics and for that reason they were on at the end of the show sure they were on they came on at the end and and if somebody hit they they would immediately get some attention but so it's a tough format and and I um but I'm patient I I'm like okay she's a talent they want they're committed to let's see what happens I think it's again you Tinker with late night format it's hard to pull off yeah just hard to pull off and I understand why I do it's a much less expensive show and you know they can't do another I guess they can't do another high budget idea of a show um I think they they rolled the dice on cordon and they came up big I think guys's really absolutely guy is really really talented and he brought some interesting stuff late night doubt about it no doubt about it um but I guess they they didn't want to do that with her I me be interesting for meat what it would look like um because I I'm always thinking that the somewhere there's a a female host that will actually really explode in late night it it seems bizarre that you know Samantha B had a show for a while and then that didn't last and you know I mean it's not like there isn't oh if they gave her show to Tina Fay I think it'd be great I just think it'd be great she'd be great y um so it's not because it's a woman it's it's a lot of other factors I uh I think I think you bring up a lot of very very cool points here um the Taylor I think is great I think she's got that you know when you think about you know uh Jimmy hosting wind benin's money that that intangible of what what is the contestant going to say or whatever and what can I come back with I think that there's enough scripted stuff for her but she's also got that uh that wit where she yeah she's got it think I think she's got that factor uh it's funny it feels a little bit like I think about my uh I think about my my my Millennial kids um you know and and you know my my youngest uh how he he's 25 now but how much he loved Tosh uh and and and and there's a little feel of that in there you know you've got these the inter the internet videos that everyone does watch we watch them at work you talk about water cooler moments how many times are water cooler moments somebody showing somebody else a telephone um and and a video on it so you're adding that to it um the part that you brought up that I thought was really interesting um because you also bring it up behind the desk uh and and and um you know I think about the only the only Carson bump that exists now or or Letterman bump uh you know to a lesser extent a little bit but certainly was there um you know when you had these new comics on okay they had new Comics but they were extremely curated like like Jim mcau and and Eddie bril like I mean Eddie br's friend of the show we've had Eddie on a couple of times he's a friend and and and you know talking about how he would help hone these Comics act you know the hunk that they would bring on that show was so curated and and um you know now this world of of of where you have these uh you know Matt rifes or these Ian bags of the world who are just razor sharp wits they're the perfect comedians for this show because they can think so well on their feet uh but that being said Joe Rogan now can break a comic he can he can have a comic on his show and that is it that comic has that Carson bump I don't know if there's anybody else who can do it but one of the things that you have pointed out is that many of these late night hosts now don't have the same impact on a comedian that they used to this show might actually start gain some yardage in that because I think that they are GNA it's so it's such a hungry Beast it's an hourong show it feels a little bit right now like it should be a half hour in my opinion um but it's also a hungry Beast if you want to feed that Beast three Comics nightly five nights a week there's going to be a lot of uh Comics that are uh that are that are undiscovered that that that could potentially get exposure and get a break here by the way is your son still doing it and is he going to be on after midnight anytime soon yes he hasn't he hasn't been booked he's aware of it and and he has worked with Taylor tomson before so let's get Dan O Carter on the on on after midnight he has um uh it's interesting though because if it's not doesn't feel like the comic is doing their act though no it's it's different you know and I I could see a comic breaking through because they're just so appealing and sharp that they could do that but you know there are Comics who you would think because of the way they their act they couldn't work in this format no you know because they have to build to a joke and they have to you know have a you know a particular Persona when they're performing and that's that's that doesn't work this is very joke intense very joke intense this is a joke and and it's just not it's very hard to make them land they're isolated they just an isolated and jokes that work that way they're just great jokes but boy you can't really make them stand out so well in this form any other com who got invited on the show I'd be like you know I gotta be ready for and I gotta come up with so much material so much different material they got you what what are the topics going to be and have I think it's a it's challenging and it it's it's inexpensive I guess in a way but very demanding very demanding you know and like I said you might still watch the you know if if Swift is booked on stepen coar everybody's gonna watch right y everybody watch but this show doesn't have that you know they're not they're not gonna have Jerry Seinfeld as one of the three no right they're not gonna have that they're gonna have Whitney Cummings you they're gonna have a known comic who isn't like a monster star um and she's not going to be in the format you've see her which is walking the stage and doing bits and you know it I I am in intrigued about the longterm Prospect of it I think they're going to really have a feeling out process I also found it interesting Mike that they did not publicize this very much at all no going into they did not this was a very soft launch they just tried to get around now interestingly they're going to give her a shot after the Super Bowl yeah you know Co will be on first but and that you know maybe that night they'll have three name Comics I don't know but they they really have to do a great show that night I think yeah uh that to me feels like the co bear influence and that's the other part of this equation that um you know you think about Dave's Dave's deal with CBS um you know the ownership that kind of a thing well you know obviously they're not giving the keys to the kingdom away that they that they used to it's a different environment but at the same time as coar has has gained his uh his strength and his influence clearly a huge piece of the next show is is is is him and and and uh he's got latitude there the the Super Bowl thing feels like it's a colar um you know you know okay we want this show to succeed you're gonna give us a shot on that no question to me it's interesting that Co bear is doing that that he is getting involved with another show don't underestimate the influence of James baby do Dixon absolutely yes and and and as well with John coming back uh baby doll who I know well uh do you know him well that's a guy I would love to have a conversation with just so you know oh yeah yeah okay James and and he is a Damon runan character he's a and the fact that he also can represent you know Co bear Stewart Kimmel I mean it's remarkable it's it's just remarkable um and uh and you know you hang around with him and he's smoking and he's got his you know thing in his ear he's he's a wild character and every year he sends me the most kind of outrageous Christmas card which brags about how rich he is uh I find him very entertaining actually so he's a guy I would have on in the show in a second just because of the okay so let's there's a this is a great Pivot Point um it's almost like you've done this before I want to go to SNL for a second here but you think about a guy like like like like uh like James and there is a comparison to be made to Lauren Michaels in a in a certain way I mean it's not because he's a showrunner and he's changed comedy and all that sort of stuff but the way that he has kind of coralled and and become an influential person in late night similarly to the way that Lauren is over at NBC right now I think a comparison could be made between the two yeah and that and in in corralling talent and putting shows together Etc uh I don't think James would ever think he has a comedy mind that you know like on he he he's a a classic manager he's a he's a classic manager yeah the orchestration the orchestration start is what I'm thinking you know yeah yeah yeah um but uh I I think it's going to be thing I mean you know it sounds to me like the deal that he made for Stuart gets them very involved again in The Daily Show and um if J if J John doesn't continue I would not be surprised if some other client of James's winds up being the host uh in some fashion um but he's he's got a great ey for talent because I he spotted John you know when he was not a big name at all and by the way John has stuck with him and then these other guys get involved with him and they are incredibly loyal to him yeah I mean he gets them jobs and one of the weirder things that happened was that Stuart was supposed to get the ABC job before before he got the Dale show he was going to get the job and ABC pivoted at the last minute to Kimmel and yep and Dixon kept both those guys that is really remarkable that that's another interesting story so he's like an old school BigTime pro wrestling manager like Bobby Heenan you're in the Heenan family you're in the you're in the Dixon family but they're all baby faces for James um so let's talk about SNL a little bit we're approaching SNL 50 we just had uh Wally fiston on and and and he's already uh scared for SNL 50 he's got PTSD from snl40 um my God we're I remember when I was in high school and the SNL 15 EP uh uh you know special was on the prime time SNL 15 we're getting to SNL 50 um my goodness mind-blowing it's insane um I I I was fortunate to attend both the 25th and the 40th uh events uh and the difference between the two was the mag the magnification of size y uh when Lauren decided he would invite every previous host to be at the 40th right uh who was living obviously and and that night was a crazy night it was so packed and and it didn't even touch on what else was going on because all these other performers and stars who weren't at the actual event wound up performing at the Afterparty including Taylor Swift by the way yeah and Prince for sake that video is online I highly recommend watching it by the way the prince performance is online you can find it yeah it was I I was in the crowd was like everything stopped when he was I mean it was incredible he justed to Stage I mean was amazing anyway what does he do with 50 I mean you know what does he do then of course a bigger question for me is then what does he do you know does he does he actually step away and I was dead certain that he was going to because he said repeatedly I'll get to the 50th I'll get to the 50th he's not totally saying that anymore um I think he's still leaning toward he'll be 80 I guess it would be 79 when the event that I I've always said this people who watch the show and many times the show isn't very good okay it just there are shows that Miss and that and I always noted like usually the first one back isn't very good when they're all and then the second one they click again or something there's a lot of there are patterns to the show yeah and people are like you know why why what's the matter with them they have all these writers and that shows if you were there and you watch them do that you would not believe it's capable of doing this a 90 minute live show in an old building where you're basically running the sets down a hallway before you get into the studio in between during a commercial it is is wild it is absolutely wild and you know they rewrite the show in between the dress and that night is insane and know and Michaels is as calm as can be calm as can be because he's done it so many times it'll get on the air you know he's like we'll get it done so you he's he is very much an Irreplaceable person yeah somebody will replace him but I remember a few years ago I may when this was first brought up to people to the obvious subjects Tina Seth who might be the replacement like no nobody can do it but him nobody can do it with him but NBC is going to do it there's no way they're walking that really gets generates not just pretty good ratings but buzz like crazy more Buzz than ever I mean it's being followed so closely it's like amazing so yeah that's an institution that's not going to end but I'm fascinated by it and Lauren will make the call I mean it'll be his call you know he he'll still have involvement and I thought it was interesting that Tina didn't kind of rule it out she used to kind of rule it out um and you could see if if she did it it would be you know I think it would be really an interesting change of pace uh and she's unbelievably brilliant comic mind so i' I'd be excited about that um it's one of those things where wouldn't it be kind of wouldn't it be kind of neat if it was it was uh Tina and Seth that to me and I don't know why that has Harmony in my mind but it just does it'd be so Charming if it was Tina and Seth who you know to to take over two people to take over that one job um and then still have Lauren some I can't I can't see Lauren doing anything I mean you know maybe he's the he would be involved yeah you know he's the guy that takes the host out for lunch he still would keep that privilege but I have to say I can't see two people doing it it has to be one somebody who makes the calls yeah this is in that's out this is the front that's not this you got to have somebody and it's okay that's it okay that's it like very hard and uh and you you can I think you know I know there's a biography of of Lauren coming out yep uh at some point and uh I was interviewed for that and I'm fascinated by because I think it's he he's you can say he's the most important producer in the history of Television uh you know you can make that case and uh does the job after him is filling crazy gigantic shoes so um I wouldn't I wouldn't Envy anybody to task you know so so you know and it's going to be interesting to see as well like when you think about Jimmy and Seth and his role on that side of things as well like I mean know tremendous he's not just a showrunner for for for one of the most important comedy shows of all time he's also um you know a king maker and and and the the person who holds the keys of the castle to NBC's the rest of NBC's late night lineup as well and that's going to be interesting to see how that change of power happens uh not unlike getting The Tonight Show back from Carson and next month is the 10th anniversary of Fallon taking over The Tonight Show and Seth taking his show um that's been 10 years so that's just about to happen in late night yeah it's you know it's funny there are there are um there's a lot of folks out there who have become apathetic uh you know remembering whatever their Glory Days were uh there's still folks who who you know reach out to me and and and Carson is their Glory Days um and then there are people who obviously a tremendous amount of people who follow this show that are you know the Jay uh the Jay Dave was their Glory Days that kind of a thing but many times you kind of don't know that these moments exist if you decide to put your perspective in the past but there's a lot of cool stuff going on right now still despite how the the industry is diluted and whatnot these These are these are some people now who are seasoned they're veterans in their own right uh have their place like you look at Seth Meers in the career that he has had um and and it feels like in some ways he is just getting started but he's also ascending into roles like this it's it's still an exciting time um for for for late night has the third book become clear to you yet no okay still not there yet still percolating I I wanted to say though that uh you know people are rightly uh can comment that the audiences for these shows are greatly diminished that's true as a live on the air television thing yes they are obviously watched a lot you know on YouTube and elsewhere but also I think their their importance to whatever is left of a network has only grown despite the fact that the ratings are lower because it's on four or five nights a week yep that person it becomes like the face of the he's a signature star of the network yep and because it's live every day it's new every day there new material every day that sets it apart from the rest of whatever is on NBC yeah but also the rest of whatever done streaming it's it's new every day it's a new show every single day and that really has value above what the actual linear rating is and I know this from fact I have uh a relative of sorts to who was a in sales for NBC and they're like we love selling lat night we love that we love it we there it's on every day it's and and that's great it's adver you you can see the things that people still watch are basically live stuff that's basically what yeah watched on linear TV yep News News sports and lay night y that's that's kind of it so I still think it has that element of specialness and weirdly because of social media Etc this seems like there's more talk about it than they used to you know I mean you'd get a magazine article about Dave every once in a while but there wasn't somebody following it on a podcast I mean it was like that it's it's it's uh just the New York Times does a Roundup of the late night monologues you know um it's still very viable in that way uh and streaming can't do it that's one they can't do it it doesn't work you can't stream a show like this it's got to be done day and date or it doesn't work yep you know and you know that from when they put a repeat week on you're like you're not interested in the repeat week you know it you got to have the person commenting on what's Happening that day and so I I still have some optimism about it and I still think it's worth following like you're doing I uh I I could not tell you how uh that that gives me encouragement I'm so encouraged by those words like because because you know reading both your books and then looking at you know reading the tea leaves it felt like okay there's a free fall and the first time you were on the show you know I said to you you know we don't want the the the last book to be the destruction of late night or you know we don't want that to be the you know we've seen the rise and now we've seen the fall it's cool to see that if there is a for lack of a better term sort of a a bottoming out maybe maybe it's a it's it's a realization as to what this now is um you know you know how much of it is going to get on the internet Cordon again you brought it up earlier I got to mention it again you think about cordon and his views on YouTube and the next day and and some of these bits and I think that's really you know finding that sweet spot of of what bits will be you know clippable and then what parts are topical that you want to see you want to see people weigh in on certain things when certain events happen um and and and we've got a plethora of folks I think you're right I think it still could get more diverse let's get some women in there um so we can hear their point of view at the end of the day when a major event happens um again yeah Tina Fay probably is probably the top of the list for me as well um so it's I'm very encouraged to hear you say that um you know the state of late night is is is at least stabilizing as opposed to for years and years and years it seemed to be well what the question mark the appointment TV that's a great point about sports too like like last weeks and I'm not a huge NFL fan I'm a Canadian so hockey's religion up here but but but at the same time even here like the rating of of of Sunday's football game I think it was 56 million people watched that and and biggest ever the biggest number ever yeah for championship game the biggest ever so I mean there's something going on that with that yeah we still watch that people it's it's something we do together we used to watch television together we used to do that we used to all watch something some things together and the next day we would talk about it and that doesn't happen anymore very rarely does that happen and I think that is a big loss culturally that you don't you can't if you do see a show you like and streaming and you start I haven't seen it yet I don't I don't want I don't want to know what's going on yeah you know it's so different it's just not there's not an interaction like it's ve we become very separate that way in our habits and what we watch and how we isolate ourselves and we stay on our phones and all that and then when there is something that everybody's watching you know you you then all talk about it together there's there's some link to that and yeah I really I you know I I think there's great stuff that's happened because of streaming but I I cannot accept that television better now than it used to be it's not better it's different it's separate it's you know there you have much more choice and all that although you don't really the idea of avoiding commercials is going away they're all gonna put commercials on now but I mean because they're losing their shirts on S but that's a whole other story but it's not there's something diminished in the experience and and you know if you watch if you're you're up late and you turn on coar or Fallon or Kimmel there's something to that experience still you know yes I gotta you know you know what Trump said to I gotta see this I got to see what the jokes they make of you know there's something to that I I hope it does doesn't really get squashed by you know NBC or somebody going out of business because you know that could all happen they don't it's very hard it's it's become a really marginal business for the companies that own them companies that own them have you know Disney almost sold ABC they were talking about selling ABC you know so I I can't guarantee that it'll go on forever but I I do think especially now as you pointed out it's election year the profile is going to be raised again and and we'll see what happens yeah it's it's really interesting um I uh I appreciate very very much your perspective on this and I I want to be I want to be honoring with your time because I want to have you back on as many times as I possibly can um would you could we do uh we've done this with a few different guests Morty included um and uh and it's always it's always fun it seems to be something that uh that the audience likes um can we can we do a little bit of name association with you I'll give it a go I can't guarantee I'll know them all but no oh no no it's it's a softball list Bill you'll know them all for sure um what do you me to give one word answer no just a word a sentence just first thing that kind of pops into your mind um meril Marco uh absolutely brilliant witty uh groundbreaking Talent yeah absolutely uh amber Ruffin uh really uh Rising talent I great appreciation for her uh SNL made a huge mistake when they didn't cast her totally uh Rob Bernett Rob Bernett did you say Rob Bernette I did H so Rob know Rob forever uh very creative guy um you know important figure in history of late night could not agree more Steve O'Donnell I never got to know Steve uh I only know of his incredibly inventive comedy that you know really helped first Dave and then Conan really influential guy oh he a fantastic guy um Jack Rollins Jack Rollins you know manager for Dave yeah uh probably uh made made a huge mistake in not guaranteeing that Dave got The Tonight Show big managerial mistake just let that set for a second uh Tom shales Tom I knew well very sorry to hear him passing incredibly talented uh funny writer uh was the only person to write a negative review of The Late Shift uh uh because I I think he really felt like he was the guy that'd be close to like Dave and stuff I got long well with him I I sort of felt like a total one-of aind sort of journalist yeah very much so Paul schaer Paul's a amazing talent amazingly talented musician and really underrated comedy guy really good really dry great delivery and hugely helpful to Dave uh dick cavat dick I've gotten to know a lot since uh I've been doing this and uh thoughtful uh great stories really witty human being I mean very very witty human being and sort of an underrated uh factor in late night because he was so in the shadow of Carson but you know he he put on a great show when he was on he had the best guest imaginable at the time he he had all the guests that were too young and hip for Johnny yeah and that's saying something um and then that's when we go to arcenio Hall Areno Hall again a guy with great influence in late night um you know I I think he did it amazing thing in taking on Carson uh good example of a guy who really was a late night force and then hard to do anything else uh you know but but while he was hot he he really made an impact bringing in you know minorities viewers I mean they didn't watch Carson much and he really carved out a niche there yeah you know it's funny I I put cavitt and and Areno was out each other because really two of the only uh you know if there was counterprogramming to Carson's Tonight Show uh there's two examples right there of of of of you and you you mentioned it yourself you had the people who were a little bit more hip than what The Tonight Show was was putting out at the time so um yeah and we'll finish off with a couple Uber producers uh Robert Morton I just love Morty um fabulous character uh and you know at the height of Letterman's Fame he was really important a guy who was in Dave's ear and did have influence on him and you know was I think he would was an exceptional late night producer yeah absolutely uh and then Barbara gains Barbara's a I love talking to Barbara uh I I I admire her career totally comes up from nothing you know and becomes very vital in in in late and put together one of the great montages you will ever see uh at the end of day's run yeah that was one of the that's yeah that that final Montage um I want to have uh she won't they won't do it but I want to have her and Randy on um Randy graic to literally go to talk about that montage there's a guy who actually took that Montage apart completely name's Adam N and he he took it apart completely I'm going to have him on the show we're going to go kind of go through the Montage and do a show on that and then the the fact that they did um there's a lot of story behind that Montage uh uh the the fact that they're playing live music to a a a canned piece of of video is is astounding the rehearsal went perfectly uh the actual uh you know last show didn't um in the editing room you know there were people who missed the final party uh that night chairs were thrown across the room because they were trying to put it all together that Montage has a has a podcast episode to itself so I'm glad you mentioned that one of the greatest moments in television um and and and and Bill I just can't tell you how much I appreciate your contribution to this thing that we all love you are uh you know the ultimate compedium uh to to to to to late night I just appreciate everything that you're doing um the last time you were on the show The CNN deal was about to end in about you know six weeks or two months after uh CNN deal has ended what are you doing these days um what can we look for is there anything that we can look for and uh how can we help yeah I CNN I still do uh write occasion for their website um um and I've written for the times upad and uh I have uh another uh project that will be announced uh within a couple of weeks um and is it to do with late night at all it does have to do with late night um and uh that will be I hope uh a focus for a while um and uh and I've done some other writing on my own which I'm enjoying uh so it's been nice uh it's been a good experience I I worked a lot with Brian stelter on his book uh this past year um he brought me into to just sort of help he was against the deadline and we worked well together stay on the fringes and uh stay active and you know so I feel like there's a more to come um and I'm very very excited to hear what this announcement is uh it's it's going to be it's going to be great uh you have a standing invite here I will bug you uh every very respectfully but to have you back on here this is an absolute honor um as always and um thank you very very much for everything that you've done Bill I just I can't thank you enough for it well I I enjoy that talking bring up things I've forgotten which is go back so well I want to say one last thing with con yes sir please is another he's another Dave figure for like for my son and that age group Conan was their guy and he made a tremendous Mark and uh I just like to mention that um also I wanted to send out a nice word to Jay absolutely yeah um you know Jay Leno you yes our thoughts uh with you um I've got a father who's actually starting to go through dementia and things like that right now so we want to send thoughts out to Jay Leno thank you for saying that I meant to say it earlier uh I also meant to bring up Conan too when you talk about messing around with the format there's a guy his last shows you know changed it to the changed his uh yeah yeah he changed everything it's gonna be very interesting to see what Conan brings out uh it's it's so encouraging to see his podcast Empire growing the way it is is deal with serious um it's it's cool to see uh yeah we didn't even talk about con God we didn't talk about con this episode and you talk about a guy who's becoming um you know a giant in his own way in a completely new Direction and that's Conan O'Brien right now so yeah very thank you for thank you for mentioning that bill that's that's that's that's fantastic that's why you're the pro um thank you so much uh this is why we do the show yeah no no no I'll do a real quick outro say our goodbye privately um Okay Okay so we've mentioned Bill Carter maybe more than anybody else uh on on on this show we're constantly referencing his uh his amazing Works uh well articulated well researched uh written beautifully if you haven't uh gotten The Late Shift the digital platforms have a really cool new version of it with some extra material on it highly recommend the late shift and then you got to get the Warfare late night um the the Warfare late night was unbelievable uh because it was like The Late Shift expanded with all these extra characters you got to get those books they're fantastic and really do have relevance as to what's happening today there are in many ways more interesting reads now than they were back then which is insane to say because back then uh you know compelling to say the least uh that has been another episode of the Letterman oh you know what the letteron podcast is one sponsor one sponsor only and that is hello- deli.com rert may not have the hello Deli anymore but he does have hellodd deli.com the only way to get officially licensed Late Show with David Letterman merchandise is rert the final gift that Dave gave to rert was that license and what a beautiful gesture it was go to hellodd deli.com get yourself a piece of Late Show merchandise uh packed With Love by rert and if you ask really nicely he may still add onions to that order hello dell.com this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum coincidentally I am Mike ch thank you and good night overcoat and