Jon Beckerman Co-Created Ed, The Bowling Alley Lawyer Show While Writing For Letterman

this is Steve Wier I used to write for the David Letterman show this is Mike Chism who spent entire life dreaming of being on the David Letterman show and will never happen watch this podcast instead welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisum today's episode is one I have been hoping for for a very long time and if my exuberance uh is too much for you I apologize I am just so excited to have John Becker on today this is one of those ones where uh there's some uh very cool things that have come into play to make this thing happen I wanted JN on this time last year uh John was filming a project in England that uh you know we talk about in this Mammoth episode gigantic episode uh and uh and he was there and and the thought was always okay you know what when I get back uh I'll come on the show at that point at that you know when that happened timing was off a little bit and we we we didn't have him on at that point and then fast forward to um a couple weeks ago on the official Letterman Channel John beckerman's staff favorite moments uh uh segment came out and it was fantastic so good I highly recommend of course after watching this episode or listening to this episode um you go to the YouTube channel the official Letterman YouTube channel and you H have a gander at John beckerman's staff favorite moment it's so cool because not only is it chocked full of amazing Letterman memories there's a lot of heart in this one he is the way that John approached his staff favorite moments segment was beautiful because the way he approached it was he was going to talk about relationships that he got um and and was a part of when he was uh employed by David Letterman and Company so what did John Beckerman do there while he was a writer of course uh became head writer we have a great conversation about that in this episode and I just love uh looking back on things with the Ben you know the benefit of hindsight hindsight being 2020 looking at things where is your sweet spot you trying new things what are they going are those new things going as well as the things that you know already and and John talks a lot about the growth that he has had we go almost three hours of this thing and like he said we almost at the end of it we felt like we just barely scratched the surface he's going to come back that's fantastic John had a fantastic career unique career within the David Letterman uh Mythos he was a writer headwriter then he went on to work for worldwide pants he helped co-create uh helped co-create I guess helped no he co-created the show Ed with Rob Bernett and I love that show I don't know about you so we spend a chunk of this episode talking about Ed thank goodness I've wanted to do that right from the start and and we of course talked to him about his hij Jinks his life the lessons that he learned with uh his career in his during his career with David Letterman and Company and just like his staff favorites moments he comes at this thing with a lot of vulnerability a lot of heart and it shows through this is a guy uh that is in many ways the opposite of Me Chief being he see thinks before he speaks a clearly brilliant mind product of Harvard at the Lampoon uh John's one of those guys we talk a lot about that and and I one thing I really appreciate about him not just his heart for you know the relationships that he built and that's that's how he built his memories for his segment but also just you can really really feel the thoughtfulness when he speaks and uh the authenticity as well and I really appreciate that about John it's funny I I'm not disappointed by any of these things but there are sometimes where I have really high expectations for how a conversation's going to go this one here the expectations were really high and the the the actual blew it out of the water uh we hope very much that this will not be the last time that John Beckerman is on the Letterman podcast and and and uh we'll be able to do some really fun things moving forward you will see and hear with this episode the door is most certainly open for those those things there's a whole bunch of uh creative ideas we could get from this and uh it's a lot of fun and I'm really really grateful that I get to present this episode uh to the to the masses out there to those of us who love uh David Letterman and Company and The Works behind it this is a really really important episode for this for this thing that we're doing here that is the Letterman podcast there is one sponsor of the Letterman podcast that is hellodd deli.com Rupert G uh if you want Late Show with David Letterman merchandise like mugs F hat shirts all sorts of stuff go to hellodd deli.com and Rupert himself will pack and send that order to you buy once buy often buy presents for people tell your friends hellodd deli.com um the only sponsor of the Letterman podcast it is a genuine genuine pleasure to present to you a very special episode and we're not wearing that out it's true a very special episode of the Letterman podcast we give you John Beckerman John uh I cannot thank you enough for coming on to the Letterman podast today you are one of those guys that uh has been at the very tippy top of the list for me uh you and Rob of course because of the Letterman stuff of because of when your tenure um with the Productions of David Letterman uh occurred but then also because of Ed I'm a huge fan of the show Ed um my first question for you so you're the guy I'm the guy yes yes sir uh small town bowling Alle lawyer uh I'm right there I'm I'm your demo um how many times a week now do you get asked if Ed is ever going to be streaming or on DVD or anything like that does it still happen I know it used to happen a lot yeah it still happens and yeah Rob even just uh forwarded me something he saw I think it was in the New York Times where uh some TV writer was asked about shows that you know are kind of where are these shows why aren't they available and one of the ones she mentioned was Ed um and she did add some snarky thing like you know it well Ed was sort of always the bridesmaid so I don't know if you should get your hopes up about ever seeing it so yeah Rob and I are calling each other bridesmaid um but uh yeah I do get asked um and I do think that if the show were to somehow appear on streaming that it would attract an audience I think people like that sort of show and there's like 80 some episodes to view and I think uh if it could all be sorted out um yeah it's I'm still proud of it and i' I'd love to see it have a second life like so many other things have that show is how I became aware of your uh aware of your name outside of of of Letterman because you know the created by uh you know and seeing both of you and Rob on that show your names uh it was such a such a point of Pride for a guy who loved Letterman for so long but for so long felt like I was in some sort of an underground bunker where I would go to high school or or or whatever and it would be like you know 10 or 15 people would exchange ey glances if we knew something on the show happened something fantastic happened on the show the night before it was it was this little Club but then seeing uh you know some of the some of some of the the folks go to The Simpsons seeing some of the folks go to and and to other show shows mared to Children Of course Kevin um but then you guys actually worldwide pants's logo and and production of other shows it was such a neat thing and Ed was very very special because of the quirky nature of it but yet at the same time the very high standard of quality um you know we can do an entire episode on Ed I just want you to know there's a lot of love for that show uh people have asked me about it well so I you know I it's something I hear about occasionally but it's it's a long time ago now so it's nice that anybody remembers it and has good feelings about it um it was uh you know I don't I don't think that show could be made today um so I'm glad I got to do it when I got to do it uh you know which I think owed partially to the I guess the quality of the script we had written but even more so to the fact that that uh you know the Letterman show was was very uh a very powerful thing and we were part of that and so the wind was blowing at our backs to do you know the kind of show that even at the time I think was hard to get made and today would be virtually impossible uh you know light hours as they call them which uh aren't really dependent on um you know high stakes storytelling uh or you know there's no hospital there's no uh murders you know what I mean so it's it's it's not easy to do those um and I'm yeah just I'm happy looking back that we got to I wouldn't want to do it again because it was punishingly hard I mean in the days of 22 episode Seasons to do an hour every week um it's probably the hardest thing I've ever done on and that includes you know my time at Letterman at its most difficult um wow so that is glad I'm glad I did it I'm glad I did it I I uh yeah that is certainly saying something and and and uh you know I'm certain that you you won't enjoy me throwing you into this category but to me you are in this category I think of um I was big Aeron sorin fan and and and knowing how hard he worked on Sports night and westwing and and and and all of that uh westwing particular L you know four seasons of that head down trying to get that show made and in many ways uh a similar tone to Ed in in in even though the topics were completely different but that light hour there was a lot of humor um and and following that that balance I I would compare the two and he has also said very similar sentiments trying to get an hour like that on a on every week very very difficult that is very telling though you saying cuz Letterman the Breakneck speed all of the stuff I mean you know we've read the bill Carter books all that for you to say that that was the hardest thing that you've gone through that's quite the statement John yeah it was it was you know the uh headwriter of Letterman is the second hardest thing I've done and um you know I would say uh emotionally more difficult than than co-running uh Ed but Ed in terms of the actual amount of work was um was crazy and you know I think part of it frankly is that we were unable or unwilling or unready or some combination uh to find a way to Leverage The abilities of the writing staff we had on board for that for ED um and we ended up doing it all you know I won't say all but the Lion Share of it ourselves me and Rob brunette and that's no way to uh do that job and keep your you know keep your sanity or yeah I mean Bal forget about balance um yeah it was brutal uh and you know maybe if I were to try a a show like that again i' I'd be I'd have a different approach but but we uh yeah you know he will always be my um my buddy From The Trenches from you know all the things we did together uh we had a very uh very tight Bond and um work together very very well for whatever reasons of temperament or you know that our our abilities complemented each other in some way um uh but yeah I I couldn't have done that show without him and wouldn't have wanted to um now I'm doing things on my own and you know different sorts of things but like but yeah that experience uh will always be an experience that I share with him you know as many of the Letterman stuff many of the stuff wow I'm good at this um you know many many of the pieces we worked on together over the years at Letterman uh uh yeah I'm proud of um of uh the body of work that he and I did together I uh I'm really grateful to hear you talk about that and it's funny um you know in the in the in the width and breadth of of what we've done with this show here um you know how many different uh combinations of personalities that would get together and and and just click and end up doing things together um you know and sometimes it was straight up WR or Partnerships like you think about Carter Bay and Craig Thomas and some of these other other people that came along and and people who just found their kind of found their person that they could work with uh I'm I'm grateful uh I want to have Rob on the show very very badly I understand why um you know everybody is from the C from from from that crew seems to be uh you know a little bit hesitant a little bit we talked at Rupert's uh retirement and and and I I was gushing about Ed um and so he was like okay you say you want to talk about Ed but then we'll talk about Ed and then you'll start talking about other like no no no no no no no no we could do an entire episode on Ed and I hope that we actually do one day maybe I have both of you on here and we literally not one drop a letter man we just talk about Ed uh this is a nice little tease people are happy about this I'm gonna go back to the beginnings you were one of the Harvard guys but you're one of the the second rounds of third rounds of Harvard guys I want to talk all about that but before we get to that I have it on good authority that you once almost killed yourself uh in a shopping cart accident uh is that that is that do I have do I have my info right on that yeah uh yes um I believe uh we were we were I don't remember if it was during a shoot week in LA or remotes week or whatever you know we did we did these shows from La which was super fun because I was not an LA person I had never lived there and barely been there and uh it was very special to like go out and spend a couple weeks um shooting remotes and then we' come back and you know edit it all and get the shows ready and then we'd go back and do the actual shows um and yeah I think I I think I went out to some special dinner at Morton's Steakhouse with uh with uh Spike and donic and Jill and uh uh I don't even remember who all was there but we came out we probably had a a uh a glass or two of an adult beverage and there was a there was a shopping cart just sitting there and I was cajoled to into it which I did and they started this feels like a a spike thing Spike SL donic thing but yeah they started pushing me down the sidewalk and then the thing tipped over and I was spilled into the street where lasena Boulevard full of traffic and yeah uh and lift to tell the tale I mean that's kind of all there is to it but if there is a point to that story it's that there were a few years there um in my early 20s because I was quite Young when I first got on staff uh there were several years that were really among the most fun years of my career and of my life just because um you know it was a fantastic job obviously I had money I had uh built-in friends that I you know quickly pretty quickly got to know um on staff and you know some of whom today I'm still quite close with um I got to travel I got to fly first class because uh that's the way you know the guild required it and I got to be on TV I got to write for TV uh it was incredible you know um and because I was not yet headwriter I I could sort of also be you know once I was comfortable and enough to know that I was of significant value to the show I could kind of be a brat a little bit which I wouldn't do today but I will admit like I did at the time just because I was a kid you know and I so I could be the one kind of with my feet up on a table you know like throwing out zingers and then I became the head writer and I was like that all ended quickly yeah yeah and and I grew to understand why that person is you know kind of annoying um but uh but yeah for for a couple years there man it was um it was idelic for me even with the hours and the pressure uh you know which I did feel um you know very intensely uh uh a lot of the time but it it was still just the best um yeah it was like and you mentioned the Lampoon that was that was kind of my first experience of really finding you know people the cliche of like finding your people or your tribe or whatever like you know I had had very good friends in high school but I had always felt like you know it like me and my best friend and then we were sort of you know we'd come in each day and talk about you know we were like The Freaks and Geeks kids essentially the outlier kids AB I know who you're talking about yeah and then when I got to uh Harvard was you know lucky enough to be able to go there and um found a lot of other kind of nerds of the same stripe as myself and then when I got on the Lampoon it it was that times 10 um and then that persisted as I managed to become a professional writer and especially at Letterman uh where I just you know after the period of time that it took me to get used to it get the hang of it come out of my shell I I felt extremely at home there which was fantastic for me it was something I I really needed at that time in my life um so so you know there's so many people who have come on um this show or spoken on other records talking about um you know you you are that next Generation it's fun like like I think about regelski I think about D and and and when he was at at at college and what Letterman meant to uh the folks that attended that campus at that time um you know you're that next Generation when you get to Harvard and you start to find your tribe uh and and and your place um and the Lampoon itself are you aware of the Letterman lineage at that point um are you just happy to be in the room okay so you were aware right away so you're asking like when I'm on the Lampoon yeah yeah when you when you when you got walked into your first Lampoon or had the the occurrence to go to the Lampoon did you know that before you even uh entered Harvard that this is somewhere I want to go did you like Conan kind of Discover it when you were there yeah I I mean this sounds such a like such a privileged thing to say but it's true I I think the Lampoon was a major reason that I chose to go to Harvard I love hear this oh that's excellent yep y yeah look the fact is I was a lucky kid I you know I grew up comfortably um my parents sent me to an excellent school I was a very academically driven kid um that's the X you still got to have that part that that's I was I mean I there were other things I loved besides academics I was a terrible athlete I you know I did very well in classes I loved you know I was a precocious reader I I've been you know that that's always been kind of my greatest pleasure I discovered comedy I love TV um I loved cartooning I was a cartoonist uh uh Comics you know all kind of nerdy stuff you'd expect um but yeah I was it became part of my identity I think part of my self identity to really Excel academically I was valedictorian and I managed to get into a bunch of schools and my dad who uh passed away a year ago and who I I you know missed terribly uh drove me around we lived in Pittsburgh and he drove me up to New England and we did the college tour thing and I saw all these places and I remember remember seeing the Lampoon and and uh I think picking up an issue from a newsand um right there in Harvard Square and being like you know because they have a building it's a castle like you know Google it if if people haven't seen it but it's it's this incredible ridiculous building and it was all about comedy and I was like God if that could be my college experience that would be phenomenal and so so yeah and and you know and at the time I wouldn't say I was the biggest Letterman viewer in high school just because of the hour it was on and like I mentioned I was a nerd and I was you know I was waking up at 6:00 am every day so I didn't see it a lot yeah and it was it was long before TBO um yeah oh yeah and you know but I when I did see it I you know I absolutely felt like probably I go as far as to say it was the first thing I had seen that I felt spoke directly to whatever sensibility I was developing as a person who loved comedy and aspired to make it it was you know to the point where and I could I could send you this if you have any use for it although there's things in it that I wouldn't want to be seen by by uh by the general public but I've got quite a bit of that stuff so yes you're welcome to I don't know if I've told this story uh publicly before I can't remember for sure but so my best friend um was a guy named Jonathan zitan who I was best friends with from sixth grade on sixth grade was when he started going to the same school as me and we were inseparable and uh at some point in the late in our senior year we decided to make uh a documentary um about our school and it was called school the movie and he was behind the camera I was the host which and I am not a performer this is not something I've ever pursued but in this thing I was the host and I did it like Dave or at least like I try like Dave was who I was emulating when I tried to do it and so you know I was walking around with a microphone and I was sort of you know I I kind of was trying to to interview people the way Dave does man on the street kind of stuff yeah and it was a complete like Dave impression but it was you know shot on VHS and it was dumb you know 17year old me in a neck tie um so so yeah I mean the show as much as I got to see it was an enormous influence on me and you know even there were other things that I loved like Monty Python for example but even that like the that was at the time I was watching it was uh you know 15 years old or something and Letterman was what was happening right then uh and yeah I was I was amazed by it um and so I do think all of that again privileged and obnoxious but I think it played into my decision to choose Harvard over my other opportunities at the time and uh no but what you just did though what you just did there is many times the assumption that people make when they you know that that would not be a surprising type of uh attitude that that people would would would have stereotypical type attitude right but but what you're saying is so Charming because there's only a couple times I found anyway there's only a couple times in one's life when you have a moment of clarity like you did when you picked up the Lampoon and said wait a second this could be this like I this this could be College you know you know where where where I'm expected to perform I'm expected to to to achieve to to to figure that's the next step this could be it and and everything just kind of that light bulb moment right and and that is so beautiful that you had that at that age what an Incredible Gift that the Universe gave you I couldn't agree more and I really feel blessed to like the my path I've been very challenged at times during it but you know it's been I mean I'm I'm a lucky guy I'm a blessed and lucky guy uh you know I like I said I was lucky enough to get into Harvard I got there fell in with a group of friends immediately and started having the best time probably of you know my teenage years by a million times oh wow and and then you know the Lampoon has this like everything at college and these competitive I mean at uh Harvard and competitive uh schools yep you can't just decide oh I'm gonna write for the Lampoon you have to enter a you know uh a very rigorous competition talking about aronin talking about about eron sorin you watch The Social Network um and and and I've heard that that they did a pretty obviously cinematics scored by Trent resner and and stylistic but they did a pretty cool uh rendition of some of the Antics that happen uh or happened uh you know we can't confirm or deny if it still happens but that these are the types of things that happen my next question was about getting into the Lampoon can you describe that you're going into it now I just want to kind of set that stage you ain't just getting in you're not just signing a sheet and pulling a tab off a off a bulletin board right right yeah so the Lampoon um had you know kind of two elements there was a social side to it uh you know it was like a club with a clubhouse um and parties and you know dinners and a lot of hanging out um and then we put on a magazine uh five times a year uh and the you know you work a lot harder getting into the Lampoon then you do once you're on the Lampoon I would say um interesting uh you had to uh you had to make a series of cuts basically and each cut required you to generate um a few a handful of pieces and it was the first time that I had ever uh I chose to try to get on for art I should add because I had never written comedy before and I thought well at least art is something that I have developed uh you know some chops at that yep the average person was not a cartoonist so I'd have an edge and so I I thought all right I'll try to get on with art yep and I drew a few little things that I did not spend very much time on on and I didn't make it um and then you know I think I got some decent feedback from some people but I didn't make it and I don't I don't believe anybody well I know for a fact no no other freshman got on and so that spring um I had a second crack at it there were two chances to get on each year fall and spring and so I thought this time I have to figure out what it actually means to try to do cartooning you know because I I just never been ambitious with it before and I think yeah actually one of the I think one of the pieces that got me on staff is hanging up there I mean I can't get you a good shot of it but like I I started trying to draw these um kind of page or two two page long uh pieces that were mostly kind of autobiographical like satire of my like teenage years which I think was pretty unusual for the Lampoon the the pieces tended to be uh there's a certain style um they were very cerebral and very abstract and there was pop culture parody and stuff like that but um there was not a lot of uh observational just Slice of Life comedy in it but that was what I took a crack at and I did um I think the piece that people liked the most that I did to get on was uh called Rock and Roll Fantasy and it was a fairly true to life description of my uh getting into a a middle school rock band um uh with some other guys I knew and it was just a very kind of dry dead pan description of what that was actually like um and then I did another one about uh going to the mall basically and people like these pieces and they were they were the most it was a big step for me as um a creative person because unlike the academic work I had done before which I put a lot of effort into I had never invested hours and hours of work into a creative project before i' had simply never done it um with the exception of school the movie perhaps but that we kind of just we kind of just winged that you know by the way like by the way Don just told me that he has found school the movie and put it on his YouTube channel already so here we go we're there oh the I don't know if the problem is certain mores were were different um like no I'm I'm not even kidding like I'm I'm worried that there are things in there that could be construed as oh as racist or sexist a different time a different filter but that's not necessarily understood through today's filter um the the neck breaks change that we have seen in our life John is just unbelievable of what was not just acceptable but like almost encouraged versus heinous now uh uh just what we have seen we've never there's never been a generation that seen change the way that we have in that regard I would simply ask Don to maybe watch it before he links to it that was a joke that was totally a joke just talking about Don Gill's prowess I don't think it's out oh oh see I was I wasn't I thought you were serious because I think I think way back in the day I I believed it because I have a YouTube account and I think oh either I or my friend who made it I think we put it on just to share with the otherc like back in the earliest days of YouTube Just because it was a way of video sharing that is hilarious I think I don't think it's possible to find through a search now that I think about it okay um I totally wayed your story for a for a little oneoff joke about about about the the prowess of dawn um but but I believed it to go back to your point that's hilarious uh to go back to your point though um I I'm super curious about the mindsight once you get in there and you realize I find it fascinating that in the first semester for freshman um and there's been other stories about freshman getting onto the Lampoon Conan being of course a notable the the notable exception to the rule um was it the fact that you know you talk and you talk about the joy of actually spending time on something this creative and and as opposed to just you know using your offthe cuff Talent uh the surface Talent uh is there anything that was intentional about okay we're not bringing any freshman on because we're going to see which ones a uh want in truly where it's not just a lark and be the ones who are going to take the second chance more seriously was it that meticulously thought no okay no I think it was pretty uh meritocratic I you know I think I did not deserve to get on for the effort that I put in uh fall semester I just I thought oh all I have to to do is show them that I can cartoon and they'll say come on in and um excuse me I uh excuse me yeah sorry about um I just yeah like I'm trying to say like I I had just part of it was the cartooning for me was excruciating the doing of it um I'm not a good Craftsman as a as an artist and so it was a very belabored process that I did not enjoy and so you know I could and I'm not even saying I'm good at it like I had I evolved a certain style that was kind of uh rudimentary but like appealing in a certain way but it was it was like pulling teeth to do it and um and so part of it was just the stamina of telling myself you know I'm going to carve out several days of hours a day and I'm going to freaking do it and um use up bottles of white out and just make it happen and and that's what I did and once I had chosen to do that like I think that was uh for me that was a big moment of kind of For the First Time developing a work a work ethic for Creative work not just for I'm going to memorize you know all these you know uh chemistry facts and stuff um y well an incredible life lesson uh you know in hindsight looking back at that it's like okay uh th those things that we have been um whether it's enticed or forced to actually dig into those are the things that actually build character that can actually take you to the levels way above that but as an 18-year-old kid or 17y old kid however old you were you know you you you only learn those types of lessons through experiences like what you're talking about yeah it was a learning experience uh and yeah I feel like it was kind of the beginning of my career in a way um uh and so yeah I have the Lampoon to thank for kind of pushing me in that way and then you know once I got in there that spring um and found myself uh surrounded by people who would go on to uh you know gigantic careers and you know and also just hearing Legends of people who had already gone and done that um I became the center of my college experience and uh uh just you know a fantastic way to spend a few years with uh just some of the funniest smartest best uh you know people that I that I've ever gotten to meet um it was it was uh I'm making it sound like my life has just been one party and parade after another but the fact is that those lampon years um which were followed pretty quickly by my earliest years uh at Letterman um you know although there was a period in between when when I was uh I was trying to get that Letterman job and I was doing other things but uh yeah that was just a great span of years um and I should mention that uh one of the people I the first people I met who was on the Lampoon uh was Paul Sims because he was he kind of ran the process of the thing that happens to you when you get on the Lampoon and um you know and immediately I was like who is this guy like how does somebody this uh just effortlessly funny and charming and you know cool and bl you know he was like three years older than me and it was just like oh my God like I've never met anybody like this before you know I'm gonna jump in I'm gonna jump in real quick for our listeners and viewers uh okay so letman writer of course but then also yeah um Larry Sanders show news radio and a plethora of other amazing in my opinion culturally significant projects that's a guy that I very very badly want to pick the brain of at one point and suddenly this is this is but he wasn't that then but he was the guy at the Lampoon two years your senior and was still that guy so sorry I just want I just want to throw that in there for folks who might not necess know who who Paul is yeah I was a freshman he was a senior um and you know one of the officers of the Lampoon and uh and you know one of the funniest writers there certainly and uh you know so I you know when you're a kid three years is is is is hugee you know what I mean and so um and then yeah he he very quickly uh found his way to Letterman um and when I uh when I came to New York he very generously invited me to come visit him um at the show a couple times so I remember sitting in the edit room and watching him edit a remote um and you know but the he did a couple huge favors for me one was uh so I guess the the summer after my senior year at College I decided to try to write a spec script uh which is a sample piece of writing that you write you know generally in those days it was usually of an existing show and you write it in the hope that somebody will read it and hire you to write for their show whatever it may be jry shaning did it for Sanford and Son back in the day yeah yeah um and I wrote an episode of get a life which was not a popular show but it was my favorite show by far it was uh Chris Elliott and Adam resnik's sitcom that was really you know it was both a sitcom and kind of a parody of every sitcom convention that had ever existed and and at the time I thought it was probably the funniest thing I'd ever seen um Adam uh you know I didn't know who Adam was at the time but I knew that whoever was doing this show with Chris who was maybe my favorite thing about late night you know I I uh you know I was just blown away by what these guys were doing and Paul uh got my script to Adam Resnik and um I remember being in the you know super disgusting uh summer rental apartment I was sharing with um some of my Lampoon friends and getting excuse me getting a call from Adam Resnik uh telling me that he couldn't hire me because he thought his show was about to be cancelled which in fact it was but that he you know he he he like my script and um and I can't begin to tell you what uh how big a deal that was for me um he is to this day one of my biggest Heroes as a writer um Adam is uh um his pretty recent uh Memoir kind of a book of stories uh you know true Memoir stories that he wrote a couple years ago is one of the funniest books I've ever read he's brilliant um and uh yeah in fact just to jump ahead a few years um when I was a young writer at Letterman and he was doing a project uh he uh incredibly invited me to write for it and I wasn't able to do it at the time because I was I was kind of just getting started at Letterman but um but I always part of me always wishes uh I had been able to go and do that because that guy you know I I just can't praise highly enough um and uh yeah anyway so so Paul did that for me Y which did turn into a job but then um he managed to get my Letterman packet uh seen by the right people uh that's Steve probably right to St yeah Steve and Morty and and he he was either gone or just about gone from lman at that time um yeah he was part of one of the big exoduses that happened right he was uh there was a couple of times early on someone to the was that the Simpsons one would that would be the one where folks left for the S around that time I think not I think that was before Paul left okay um yeah because I think I think those guys um went to The Simpsons before possibly before Paul even gone on staff I'm not I don't want to say for sure Don would know yeah but but yeah um so you know it just goes to show you like when people talk about the Lampoon Mafia or the pipeline or whatever I mean yep the fact is you meet people who you would not otherwise meet who are super funny smart and talented and into comedy and end up doing these jobs and you know if I had not had that experience on the Lampoon I would not be in uh television or comedy or show business today because I it simply wouldn't have struck me as a thing that was worth pursuing um it would have seemed like something that you know you don't get to do just by trying uh and I I think I would have gone into Academia or um uh you know know something like that um so there you go that's that's what harvor did for me which was a lot I got to say it was everything oh absolutely the trajectory was uh you know very clear that this is the the event that allowed you to enjoy your college Years and also put you on the trajectory of what your future was going to be um forgive my ignorance both on on on the timeline of of of Paul Le but more so uh for this next question has there been a documentary done on the Lampoon and it's alumni and and and if so I haven't seen it and I would love to see it if not uh that thing needs to be made as far as I'm concerned um there's so much Rich history in the world of entertainment today that is still shining on uh because of all of the generations I've watched I don't know if you you got a chance to watch the The five-part Comedy Store uh documentary that was made a couple of years ago it did actually yeah AB absolutely incredible to me um you know we're living in this world of archiving and and and and reminiscing and throwback and and and culture shifting events and all of that to me a five-part uh or a three-part or or something a long form dock on the the Lampoon itself and the people who came out of it and where they are now and and and all of that the culture that was made in comedy and entertainment that's a project that would be fascinating to me anyway yeah it would probably be pretty interesting I uh you know I know there have been news you know magazine type packages done over the years but I don't know that there's ever been kind of the modern-day attempt to uh do the documentary approach to it um yeah it's I mean there the number of people that have come out of it and have achieved you know great stuff is is very large you mentioned Paul uh before we go into your first couple years of Letterman um I I brought up the shopping cart story because of exactly exactly why uh what it was you were you know the kid in a room and you got to be a kid for a while at Letterman and that's that that I I Adore that you got that experience um and we all know that the ups and downs of Life are there you were a headwriter at Letterman there were Downs I I get it like the pressure of the job alone never mind the quirkiness of the production itself the uniqueness of what you guys were doing the vacuum you guys were in I get all of that um so so I I I I can't wait to get to your first couple years of writing at Letterman where you got to be that kid for a while uh that that's great but I can't leave the Lampoon without asking about some of the names that you other names other than Paul that you were there with that resonate today whether or not they're famous or not yeah sure I mean like was Conan there when you were there no Conan was uh gone by the time I got there but his uh you know his his name was a name you heard a lot um bet yeah he was a legend and I remember him coming in once or twice while I was there and it was and you know he wasn't famous yet at that point but he was famous there you know it was he was a celebrity there um so no I did not overlap with him I did overlap with Bill Oakley yeah who uh you know people will know that name he uh went on to run uh with his partner Josh Weinstein some of the best years of The Simpsons you know among other amazing things he's done um David X Cohen who uh wow created Futurama yeah with Matt graining was there these guys were both seniors when I was a freshman um Jeff sh er uh you know from Seinfeld at curb in the league and the million other things he's done um Alec Berg from Barry uh I'm gonna forget people and I don't mean any but you know my class and the classes ahead of me had phenomenal people um Brian Rich uh uh who I was I became very good friends with um went on to become uh a legendary Conan writer um he actually he worked at Letterman uh or excuse me early in my run at Letterman um he got hired there too and so I got to work at Letterman with him for a brief period of time it turned out he was much better suited for Conan and they snapped him up yeah um and uh people should people should Google Google Brian Rich uh if don't know the story of how he when he decided to leave Conan um to go uh I think work on just shoot me or you know to pursue sitcom writing in La he as a prank decided to uh compete for the slot that he had opened up on the writing staff under a fake name he decided to see if he could get his old job and I'll leave it there but talk about commitment to the bit and uh following through on a funny idea it's one of the funniest things you'll see um so uh I think on the Conan podcast I think they did essentially an episode about it um but uh Brian unfortunately very sadly uh passed away last year um so you won't be able to ask him about that but uh uh we're keeping him alive right now my friend we're keeping him alive right now by by sh ing this a very very very amusing Story by the way Don just sent me this I'll put the picture up for everybody to see it but that's at Paul's going away party there oh wow in 92 and uh oh cool so uh yeah um so that's obviously uh Paul and Joe at the farewell party back in 92 there um he's also giving me Adam resic so so over top of what we're talking here I'm going to throw these pictures on for the viewers to see and Adam's book is on there as well Don's been throwing at me here this whole time um I i' love for more people to find that book yeah well you know what and um we'll do an entire episode on it if we can if we can make that if we can make that happen that's something that we like one thing I want to do is I want to uh I was just going back and forth with with with Steve Young last night partially uh to prepare for this but also because we're just kind of friends now and and uh yeah uh you know with some of the music that he has coming out he's got this just trajectory where he's gone down this path where the Beast must be fed and it's these songs that just keep coming out of him I can't wait to help promote that stuff and that's what I want oh yeah you know part of this show isn't just uh you know it's all of course the celebration of the greatest body of broadcast work in history that of David Letterman and Company the company and what they're doing now is something that I very very much want to be a part of a for lack of a better term a promotion vehicle for I want I want to be able to to throw this stuff out there because the sensibility has a through line and so many of us resonate with so many different different things everybody who loved Letterman is Gonna Love Adam's book I know that already even though I have not read it yet um for sure and and so you know I want to talk to you about projects that you're doing as well and that kind of thing but let's get to this place where okay you get on um a 13 week cycle is that is that are you you hired on as a writer you're not you didn't come in as an intern you came in as a writer that's correct I yes I sent in a package a packet whatever uh you know a writing sample um which I can probably dig up somewhere you know and my I'm you know it must have had something going for it um top 10 list of course yeah um my big memory is that uh that so you know Steve was the headwriter Steve O'Donnell who hired me and I remember after I got the job being in his office for some reason and seeing my packet just like on a stack of paper or something you know and there was a note like a sticky note on it that said um indications of a lively visual mind um and I yeah I'll never forget that phrase because it was like there is one of my hero um writing something positive about my work and in only the way that Steve O'Donnell communicates that is a perfect Steve O'Donnell phrase right there I know right it's uh yes I mean he's um you know verbally so uh you know incredibly gifted and uh has such a way of expressing himself and and there it is and uh um yeah so I yeah you know I I think it was just one of those things where I was in the right place at the right time and had made a connection through Paul and a slot opened up and and there I was um I you know I pretty much got the call to come in for an interview which typically I think was just they had already kind of decided to hire you but they just wanted to get a look at you and make sure that you weren't uh really annoying or obnoxious or there's an energetic chemistry that needs to be confirmed yeah yeah and so you know I met Steve that day he offered me the job um and then walked me out to uh the kind of vestibule by the elevator and I was um I was wearing what I thought was like a nice dress up outfit which I think was sort of a very wrinkly kind kind of linen or Oxford like Buton blue button- down shirt and Dave happened to pop out of the elevator oh God and Steve introduced me to him this is my first time laying eyes on him and Steve introduced me to him and his only words were uh you know have have that shirt pressed and uh and then he just kept moving and I was like oh my God like this is crazy that this is happening to me and uh yeah and then there I was and I started showing up every day at 30 Rock because this was still at late night not late show um uh and um uh it was you know it was thrilling but it was it was very intimidating and scary for me um uh especially because a lot of work is done in the room um or was at the time uh and I simply didn't have the the confidence to open my mouth you know I was um and that's never been my you know my something I I love like I don't I don't love being in a big room full of people and having to be funny I find it very difficult to kind of get into the head space that you need to be in to like a lot of ideas I think it I grew in that ability as time went on but to be the new guy to have people who are very comfortable sitting around that table um and you're 21 at this point right I I think I was closer to um 23 maybe okay so early 20s you're yeah yeah you're you're you're still you're not a fully formed adult by any stretch of the imagination working with fully formed adults yeah and you know and at that point somebody who was 26 seemed old exactly and somebody who was 30 uh mid-30s as I think Steve O'Donnell would have been seemed like in you know a complete grownup like um you know and dis which wanted that very yes and uh yeah and so I remember just being scared of everybody at certain people went out of their way to be friendly to me one of them was Bill sheft uh who I'll always be grateful to for just being friendly you know um one of them was Jill Davis uh who you know there were I think there was a little bit of um yeah I don't know it's that thing of people who are sizing each other up and you know you know what I mean there there was definitely that aspect to it um you gotta earn some respect you got to get some chops and earn some respect and then and then your friends uh you know pushing each other around in shopping carts but it you gotta you got zo Freedman Zoe Freedman I should add is I always I always I you know our kids ended up going to the same school in LA and so I would see her frequently and I always happy to see her because uh uh a funny thing that happened at the end of my first week at the show yeah um we I don't know what this was for um but we were invited to Gracie Mansion the the mayor's residence in New York City and so literally at the end of my first week I was you know ushered into the back of a limousine to go to an event at Gracie Mansion is co cotch is the mayor at that point it was dinkin oh was dinkin at that point okay yeah yeah and uh and and I remember I didn't know anybody you know and and I remember Zoe was in the back of the limo with me and and some other people and yeah she was just really nice so I've always been uh thought warmly of her for that um but yeah it was uh it was very very very intimidating and I I think I was I had certain um misunderstanding ings of what I'd been hired to do uh one such misunderstanding was that from watching the show and from loving when things didn't work on the show Absolutely loving it absolutely probably loving it the best of any aspect of the show yes I had formulated the notion that you were supposed to create stuff that would probably not play in front of a studio audience um that was random or weird or rarified and so that's that was the target I was shooting at I was so interesting I was writing like non I was writing antih humor in a sense you know not even like metah humor or how you would Define that but like anti-h humor I was writing things that and a little of it came I think from my Lampoon background where I think I think that was courage that was part of it was uh just you know a weird turn of phrase that didn't uh wasn't a joke per se you know and so yeah I was just writing these things that didn't work and I think the you know I don't think I was a shoe in to be picked up for another um cycle and a couple weeks into my uh my after I was hired um Rob Bernett replaced Steve as headwriter and I believe at some point he kind of talked to me he was like you know like this was good this was good but you know like I'm sort of hoping you'll kind of turn the corner and start generating more stuff that like we can use and that you know Dave Dave goes up in front of this audience of regular humans every night and he wants this stuff to play and kill and I was kind of like oh okay yeah and I mean it sounds crazy but I swear to you that was a moment for me and I'm not going to say that from there on everything I wrote was was gold but like I started attacking it a different way and you know imagining is an audience going to laugh at this yeah and I think became more more productive um you know and more relaxed in the room and I found certain things that I was suited for um like I I think the top 10 is probably was probably my favorite part of the show to actually work on which might you know be surprising but like I loved it and I think it was something that I I got to feel like I was good at um and I I remember maybe the first joke not that I got on because I'm sure I got on kind of a more hcky kind of thing but I I remember um I maybe don could track down because I can never remember what the topic was um and I haven't been able to find it by Googling but I I believe uh it was about President uh George HW Bush and maybe it wasn't but it my joke was something to the effect of him popping up and down and and saying more explosions more explosions as anion like with an with an apostrophe like expion yeah yeah and maybe it was a Fourth of July like I don't even know what it was all I can tell you is that word's in it though that yeah explosions might have some sort of a data spreadsheet or something but anyway okay we'll find out anyway yeah and my point is not this was some great joke and I obviously can't even remember what it was but at that turn of phrase I think I had hit the bullseye for the first time where it was like uh Dave chuckled at this and I remember I remember his assistant Lori Diamond like in the hallway right outside the the uh Studio like laughing at it and being like Oh that was great that was great and like yeah and then it was like okay I think there it is yeah yeah and and you know I started becoming more useful to the show uh and well you just saying that word now like like seriously John you just saying that word right now um kind of ignited the Letterman receptors like that is I I think about it and it's maybe it's in one of the books there or not but but it's it's um that word there you could see it on the screen you can hear Dave with his Cadence uh saying it and and you could just it just that is a perfect yes there it is right there um let's go back is that that's not the first thing you got on do you remember the first thing you got on I really wish I did I think it was um it it I'm 99% sure it was a boring top 10 like the kind of top 10 that you know it's number eight and it's serviceable most common answer from a writer by the way to that question is is exactly that uh the most that's the by far the most common answer um um the other thing too is is uh one of the things that I appreciate about you uh and by the way now man I I will say it in the intro when I shoot the intro obviously but uh I've got to reiterate um you know through through through the the magic of of video production and time travel I suppose I'm going to reiterate the the staff favorite moments you did uh with Walter was incredible because I love the way that you took it I'm I'm I'm a relationship connection guy um and so the fact that you came from it from a um I'm going to talk about the relationships that I I had built the friendships and then and it went from there it was so touching I love what you say about Rob um U and and and because I mean not just a friend and a partner and all that but a mentor and it sounds to me like you just uh gave us the Genesis of the mentorship he takes over his head writer and and and and and like um Steve saw in you uh he saw something uh had been around longer knew what you just said new explosions already he knew that already um you know had that had that uh culture down um but and then kind of gave you that little you know when you when you when when you move a cruise ship you're you're not you're not moving the whole dial you're just giving it a little adjustment and he gave you that little adjustment that mentorship began that day it sounds like um I think that's safe to say an accurate and yeah um I mean he was a guy I was you know kind of scared of uh in my early days there uh you know sitting around that table but once I think once I had once I demonstrated that I wasn't you know going to be somebody wasn't worth getting know getting to know because I was going to be gone in a few weeks um the the room kind of warmed up to me and and um yeah and he was he was about seven years six or seven years older than me so I I definitely saw him as a a grownup and you know and he'd gotten a headwriter job for God's sake um but he he invested heavily in me in donic and in other you know younger writers to um to help us figure it out um and uh you know I I was often part of like kind of a little core group that that he'd gather to try to really crack something solve a problem you know uh and I learned a ton I I mean I could probably write a short book just on how much I learned from him honestly um uh he he yeah he was I hate this phrase but he was able to kind of see the Matrix in a way that you know that I I love that phrase all at that point Y um and help me understand just how comedy worked a little bit because I you know I I thought of myself as funny in in certain ways but I had no craft and I had I just I didn't know how to do like a setup a punchline and how to frame something um you know like he he did a piece much later that I think was just watching water boil um and it was like today you know on the show we're going to watch water boil and it was literally that and they they turned on a you know a flame under under a clear you know pot of water but the point of it was how it was framed as if it was a spectacle yes with a A buildup yes and an escalation and a payoff yep and like that you know I doubt that's the piece he's proudest of but it was like kind of this pure thing of like here is how comedy and entertainment works is it's framing you know and like there's aspects of that that uh you know 30 years later in running a writer room on a on a sitcom I amusing um you know so yeah he I I tried to talk a little bit about it with Walter and Gaines on the Letterman favorite moments but that that Steve Martin David you know the the making of Steve's appearance that I think appeared on some uh anniversary shows and the like um that was just such a great example and I I you know Rob is also a great joke writer and just a funny guy I'm not diminishing that in any way but he had a real genius for how to put something together and how to realize what it really wanted to be and yeah that was a thing where Daniel Kellis uh who I know you've spoken to um absolutely who uh you know is a good friend he um he was uh he was uh in the talent depart segment producer and Steve was his guest and um and he or he and Steve or just Steve I don't know who had an idea of shooting some uh clips of like uh you know the the rehearsal for his appearance which was a funny idea it was like you know Steve didn't know how to pick up the cup of water like pick up the mug and he kept missing and you know it was all like or what laugh should I use for a joke like like yeah yeah and so we had shot these bits and and I remember bringing them to Rob or maybe Rob and Dave and it being like but what how do you roll into like what do we do with these like because they didn't have like Beginnings middles and ends and whatever and it was Rob's idea to be like oh you know what we should do is we should shoot uh Dave and Steve talking to camera like they're in a documentary and we can voice over and assemble these things into a piece and you know I don't I guess there's a reason that example keeps occurring to me just because like I felt like my brain broke open kind of in in things like that where you know where it was like it was it again another cliche and I feel like M Malcolm Gladwell or something but like you know out of the box thinking where instead of just trying to solve the puzzle you're working on you take a step back from it and you know reconceive a whole other thing around it yeah um was something that he was Rob was extraordinarily good at um uh so yeah there was he was a hugely important mentor to me um and you know during that time uh I just I mean I talked about it on on uh the Letterman Channel but I had colleagues that that I learned a lot from as well and just you know became extremely close with even if uh only temporarily so in some cases but in others I think for life you know you you mentioned Malcolm Gladwell uh also o uh might even be in the same in the same publication talking about the 10,000 hours and and and and to me yeah you know that's that's you've just described two examples of your of you putting in your 10,000 hours um and both of them had very similar connotations teaching you actually how to it's again you know and again it's the Leno letter Letterman comparison right you know the the Leno is a joke maker and a joke teller that's what he does um but this program in one of the reasons why I think it resonates and has you know the status that it does with all of us uh or with all of our personality types who love it so much is is is the water boiling example where you're actually using the device of what late night is you are taking advantage of okay we're watching water boil but there's some X factors that we're throwing in we're setting the volleyball for Hal gurny uh who's bumping it back to somebody else and who's setting it again for Letterman now to react to this stuff so there's the you know you know gurnie with with with his expert Direction you know the the technical crew who were all kind of in on things as well how it's going to be shot um and then of course relying on um you know perhaps the you know the great I call him the greatest broadcaster ever because he also had the razor sharp wit as well as the ability to communicate at the same time and then this this writing that sets that volleyball you're all just doing stuff together and it's a perfectly well-oiled Machine by that point you know it seems like Rob had that down which again the sensibility of the show that's why the head writer becomes the head writer um the sensibility of the show was so important I mean I can't tell you how many writers uh or people I've talked to behind the scenes who maybe you know didn't get renewed haven't come on the show yet whatever um because they were funny hilarious but the sensibility of the show was such an important element um you saw Rob right when he became headwriter you headwriter yourself um did you notice a change in him because you saw him go from writer to headwriter um did the stress of that particular job and Rob obviously extremely successful uh if only by looking at the numbers how long he did it for how he moved into the uh executive positions at worldwide pants and all that very successful of integrating himself into that world did you notice him leveling up as were getting your 10,000 hours in leveling up learning these things did you notice him changing as well at that time I don't know if I could have perceived it as him changing because I you know he seemed fully formed to me when I met him and started working under him yep um but I think you know if there was a leveling up it happened during the period of time when uh when Dave had signed on to do the CBS Late Show y but we hadn't yet started to do it so we had this period of time of months where all there was to do was put stuff in the bank for um for late show and it was why the Late Show started so strong it was because we had all these remotes and all these ideas and um and I think you know Rob was uh I think a crucial kind of partner to Dave in making that transition as successful as it was and I I like to think that I was kind of a crucial partner to rob in getting all that stuff done because I you know and not to take away from the other writers who were as well but like no but yeah I I um good for you for being able to own that by the way I that might be that might be the least self-deprecating thing that any writer it's the closest thing to to to recognizing your own massive achievement which we all recognize but boy oh boy is it hard to get you guys to to but but that was fun it was the biggest part of entertainment ever at that point Time Magazine everybody talking about Letterman moving over and you guys hit an absolute Grand Slam home run with the first 18 months of that show and and and it was absolutely yes so so so for the fact that that is what it was in entertainment and you're able to say well you know what and I'm actually kind of proud about my contribution to yes it was massive John well you know what's funny maybe part of it is that uh and I know this is true of other writers in of my period at the show but like when zinman's book came out of course everyone got a hold of it and was like you know all right you know am I in the book like what what's going on here and you know if you were mostly uh or entirely a CBS Person yep you found that this job that you had had for maybe two years maybe five years maybe 15 years maybe 20 years was essentially not part of the story of the show and I I I am in the book um um but like I kind of yeah it was like wow I'm sort of a footnote to my own entire career and so I do I do feel the urage to stick up for and you know I I have no grudge against him and he well hold on a second though like he had a Monumental story to tell and CH to tell focusing on you know what is arguably the most important part of it and that's fine I don't care I'm not like mad about it hold on hold on though I got I got to speak to this because no no there there is a there uh he had a really like almost Sophie's Choice kind of uh a choice that he had to make he talked about it on this show uh because he did not want to make the uh he had to make the choice like he has enough material for another book and and and and did not want to make the choice of putting out an 800 pound 800 page I should say book about about it and so he had to keep it and it's a big book anyway but he actually had to make the choice to not um and I have asked him a couple of times because he's like I've had all this material about L I'm like please if you got any dailies I would love to I would love to screen the dailies of that book so so so and it was a hard choice for him because the stories are so rich and and and Lea was the majority of the career and it was you know our you you and my our generation's Tonight Show right but it was the preparation that allowed that to happen but what happened was incredible like again I mean I love I love uh uh I love Late Show so so so much and and everyone has this everyone has this reverence for late night I have it too don't get me wrong but boy oh boy do I love uh late show and what you guys did there so so there is that material there you have now given me a wonderful wonderful clip oh Don's just coming back on hey buddy um you've given me a wonderful excuse to go back to zinaman and poke him a little bit to see if if those pages uh could ever be anyway I'm sorry about that aside John but but that is a very important distinction in that book there's so much richness in how late show was made hi Don you're back uh hi I'm sorry I'm I'm budding in but there's no way other uh uh my my laptop ConEd out and it took me to the next 30 minutes to to reboot so I've missed the last 30 minutes of conversation no problem and and I'm buding in now so I don't know if it's a good time or I should jump in all right uh and if you've already talked about this while I was gone then too bad um I wanted to ask you more about Ed um and the and the writing process and the and the it's it's a naive question from someone who's who's who's never been in in that in in in the work that you do or did or still do uh the fact that you and Rob and sometimes others wrote every episode how far in advance was the writing process I'm laughing because the answer ranged from months in advance to we were writing pages and they were running them down to the the studio I mean we got so behind on that show that we were like sued by the director's build and or find I don't think the sued I think find is more accurate um maybe they also sued us I don't know but uh uh you know I remember an episode that we were conceiving literally as it was being shot where we would have to be like all right well we have we sort of have this B story that we can feed them but what's the a story going to be I mean it was Insanity um uh you know I always think of those shows more this does not apply to late night comedy writing which is more day by day but like uh you know prime time 22 episode seasons of TV is like you're being chased by a monster who's faster than you so like give it enough time the monster will catch you you know what I mean and and you're kind of you're throwing Pages behind you as you run for the monster to gobble but like you can't outrun the monster you know so like it that's why I say it's the hardest thing that I've done um you know I just finished doing uh the first season of a show for Amazon that we can talk about later but like that was so much easier because it it was not being shot while it was being written so I never felt like I was being chased by the monster but on Ed it was um you know it's people who can do that on a network season after season season like even if the show is not what you'd think of as your sort of thing or is not you know the critics don't love it or even if nobody watches it they've achieved something remarkable in my opinion because it's uh it's crazy what a job that is um I guess what what I was did you have you talking about the IM the immediacy of of of fix or or figuring out part of an a story or a B story um did you have the general plot outlined before the season began or were you were you did you come across culdesac and and you figure the only way out is to is is to do a Dallas you know I mean how it's both it's both and anybody who works in that form who claims otherwise is not being honest with you um you you try to chart your path as much as you can and we would do that we'd be like all right I think in we'll look at this SE six episode chunk as where a certain Arc happens between this and that character we know where it's going to start we know where it's going to end and you'd often be able to stick to that but sometimes you'd run out of material too quickly and you'd be like we can't stretch it that long or other times you know like uh a guest I don't know that this happened to us particularly but like a guest person you cast as a guest you'll not love you know or like you'll find that you're just not getting great feedback and so it's you had them committed for several episodes yeah sometimes yeah yeah yeah um or to the contrary the viewers love this person and now something that you thought you were going to be done with you bring back you know there there's all there's all kinds of ways that um that you can be thrown off track um uh so you have to be able to think on the Fly and change your mind about stuff you know um I think it's to the detriment of shows when they make a plan and then they don't ackowledge the reality on the ground you know of what actually happened while they were making their their series you know uh so yeah it's that's man that's a tough job um can I ask can I ask quick question about that with Ed pertaining to Ed so uh um you know Kelly riper shows up and has a beautiful chemistry with Tom Kavanaugh and she wasn't Kelly Ripper Kelly Rippa back then it was just she sort of was though she was well I but I'm just saying compared to who people know who she is now uh at at that point it was very formative still at that point you know um compared to compared to now um there's a there's an obvious chemistry there's an obvious uh you know Charisma there do you guys then go okay you know what we've got something cool here we're going to you know that's that's now a device that we have and it's going to alter things that we might have written months and months and months ago and that will create uh you know chain reactions throughout POS possibly I wish I wish I could remember more specifically but like I'm just example I me but yeah yes and like yeah and you've got you know the network calling and saying oh you know the the president of the network is loving this character and so then you're like well we kind of like our show to stay on the air which was never a guarantee and so yeah it's like you're living in a a changing developing situation and you have to embrace and try to amplify the things that you did well and kind of move past the things that you know you didn't um yeah I I was I was scanning through the shows last night looking for uh one particular image that that I couldn't find uh and while I was looking for it I I I may have passed by it uh I was looking for cameos with you and Rob and and the first one was was the obvious one um yeah the final that was in the finale that's right but there's another one that I remember it was just photos on on the wall and and the two of you you look junk and stone and just out of it and and that's what I was looking for and I couldn't find uh that feels like it was previous winners of the pie eating contest maybe I feel like I feel like it like the two pie Club I feel it was like people who had consumed two entire pies at like one sitting and so I think our Expressions were intentionally like the way you'd look after eating two pies what I can't remember this is the crazy part did that even air because it did because I remember watching it and and noticing it at the time uh so look look at the first episode I would say would look at the the very first one one yeah yeah because the reason I say that is because I think we we actually piloted that show twice once for CBS and then again for for NBC a half hour and an hour right like was called Welcome both okay it was at one point it was called Stucky Ville and then yeah and we um we did a pilot for CBS that they passed on and it that I believe had the pie bit in it and that I think we may have that's why I think it would be in the the first episode because we would have like done it again in the NBC version or something some of this is I just can't remember because it was so long ago but like I would I would start your search by watching that episode carefully I'm doing it as we speak okay I'm watching the the uh the DVD collection that that you released I wish we all do um I cannot wait till Ed comes out because it is it's a time capsule too uh uh but I I feel like um it will age very well and it will be very Charming um my wife is actually going through it's funny I was I was messaging back with rowski back and forth a little bit because my wife she's building a a tech company right now and it's a very stressful thing and so during her downtime she will have just comfort food TV on in the background and she's going through Gilmore Girls right now and and it's funny when I'll walk in the room and there'll be a certain thing uh it'll be really funny to hear you know DAV G's name because he's the character in the show sort of um they wrote him into it and and and uh but it's it's it's comfort food and it's charming and it's a time capsule and I'm certain Ed will be in even for me anyway an even better example of that um when we all get a chance to watch it again you know let the streaming Gods figure out a way for that to Happ breath your bre not in not in the first episode uh but but it's if it's a pie eating contest that that's a good clue I'll I'll look for it there also while while I was looking for it uh I came across this and and got a big kick out of the uh the picture was the f fighters the food yeah yeah yeah I thought I I like that yet one one more inside joke yeah yeah which that was yeah that that's an obvious question I want to ask about that did that happen right away getting next year as your as your theme song or as your opening uh it happened because we I hope I'm getting this right so you know back at the time we were making that show uh if you're you know you're making your pilot and you're putting in needle drops you know meaning uh uh you know cues of actual uh you know famous or less famous music that that is out there in the world in the hopes that it will make your show cooler um um and my recollection is that you know you I like I remember bringing in a a book of CDs that I just happened to own and or it could have been one of Rob's CDs and we had the Foo Fighters and that song worked over the opening Montage of the show yeah and it had the right Vibe and we used it and then we had to get permission you know and I imagine that you know it was very helpful that we were part of the Letterman show uh you know which as you know um Dave gr and the Foo Fighters had a real Affinity with and right there yeah oh yeah nice from the last night yeah and so we got to use it but then something awful happened which was uh we couldn't use it anymore so the the subsequent seasons of the show I think we only got maybe it was a budgetary thing like we we only got the money because it was expensive you know it was super expensive um and yeah when we got picked up again it was like you can't have this show like the studio told us like I guess you can't I mean you can't have the song and um and so we had to replace it um but uh and then am I crazy to think that we brought it back for some reason I think I think you did I think no I I have a memory of it of it being there yeah no no no I remember some executive we were very upset to have to lose it and I remember some executive kept saying to us on the phone like I know I know it's your lucky glove it's your lucky glove meaning like they thought it was just like a totem that we believed you know know was like brought us good luck and we're like no it's the theme song for our show perfectly yep it does it's so perfect for a small town CH like it was perfect it's a nostalgic sounding song it is a perfect song for that absolutely I did I did also very much like the uh I can't hear anything I can't hear anything okay oh yeah they we don't want to get us pulled off YouTube thank you for that Don the song by a band called CLM snide that we put in afterwards was also great but it's just it's hard competing with something people already really like you know that uh um you know and I I can't wait to get into Ed here it's cool Don when you came back we're right around the time now where you know because what where I wanted to take this episode to was to Ed but to John working in with Worldwide pants rather than you know more so rather than just the day-to-day of the show but we're at the place right now where um I got to ask you about fun with Phil we got to go to fun with Phil for a second here because we're at that time in my opinion that is probably the most legendary Late Show early on bit that you know and and of course our our our affinity and our love for rert rert by the way yeah uh told me to tell you hello again he loves you so much and he's so grateful um you know so we'll get we'll get to that in a second but Don uh you were off uh you didn't hear any of this stuff so we I got an assignment for you I thought you were in the background looking for it there's a top 10 list back in the day uh that that uh that John um you know this is one of the one of the the seminal moments had the word explosions in it he can't remember has to do with George W bush but the word explosions like with an apostrophe and that word there yeah I think the joke included the phrase in quotes more explosions more explosions and it yeah it was just significant because I think it was the first time I remember getting something on the list that you know people really seem to like yeah late night yeah exactly so I thought uh there there might be the uh the ability to see the bat computer in motion right now and how quickly you can do that um in the meantime let let me just I just want to follow up uh season one had the Foo Fighters season two was the alternate one and then season three and season four you were back to Foo Fighters okay there it is yeah there it is cool okay this is important this is for the Legacy the DVD set that doesn't exist yeah well Don's got them all anyway so it's and I'm envious of of of of the stuff that he has there um so you're at you're you're you're now moved to the Ed svan theater you're banking stuff um those my I have kind of three favorite moment three uh time periods of Letterman that I loved uh the Dead Man Walking time at at at late night that last year was absolutely awesome um the first year of course of of late show and then and then when late shift 2 happened in 2010 uh with Dave just absolutely not to use uh not mistakenly to use the term lampooning uh Jay and and the whole situation that was happening I just that period was incredible as well right uh let's go back to you're a big part of and we haven't even got um yeah we have to have you back because we haven't even gotten to the first extra that uh that that you were a part of and never mind the legendary one with Bill Murray and and and all of these performing things actually I need to ask that how long into your run was your first on camera um experience I think it was fairly early and I feel like it was probably uh a staff stories piece I don't know if this was the very first time I appeared on camera but I was in a staff stories piece uh at NBC where we went to uh an Italian restaurant we sat around the table and everyone told a story I got I got picked to do this um my story was such a non-story I don't know why I got picked but it I mean I guess it was kind of funny it was about a time in college where I went to Pizzeria Uno and I ordered a medium Pizza I was with a friend ordered a medium pizza and they brought us a large but we didn't know that we just ate it and then they brought the bill and it was for a large and I decided to stick to my guns and be like I ordered a medium and they were like but you ate a large I was like but I didn't ask for that so it's not fair like I don't have any money you can't make me pay three extra dollars I do not have it you know and I mean the thing that made it a story was they called the police so they got two Cambridge cops to come in off the street and you know the guy's like you know so what's your story and I told him and then they they looked at the people and were like too bad like you know like you can't charge them for that just let it go and so I won and I was so happy and then uh the the the payoff of the story was as I very smugly got up to leave uh the the server shouted to my back as I was going out the door next time know the difference between a medium and a large it's like what a random thing to yell at some like okay I will take that under advisement you know did did this in that re was there a reenactment with the yes Tony Rand Rand yes August 14th 1992 there we go well there you go because at that point I had only been at the show um for you know June and July and part of August I think so you started after the Carson announcement uh I I suppose you're right yeah yeah and and I mean uh from what I've heard after the Carson announcement there was a different energy around that place like like the vibration had had had changed gotten more intensified um but you were so yeah nobody knew what was going to happen it was uh you know and I certainly didn't know anything about what was gonna happen um but iing get another 13 weeks yeah yeah I mean when I got that job I think I've said this before but um and this is not in fact true but just to reflect how I thought of getting that job y I thought the show was by far the funniest thing on TV yeah um even though there were other funny things I thought it was the funniest thing and I knew there were about a dozen writers and so I thought that by getting that job it meant that somehow I was one of the Dozen top comedy writers in Show Business I that's what I thought oh that's such a beautiful childlike perspective like that's understand the the concept of kind of Junior you know entry level writers and the fact that a lot of people who go into comedy writing their first job is on the late night talk show and I didn't get any of that I just thought based on quality and how funny it is this is the funniest and I got this job this is crazy like that's that's how I I thought about it um did you know Joe grman very well uh no I okay he was after your time I sort of essentially yeah yes okay um the reason I bring him up is is uh you know and you mentioned this actually in the STA favorite moments thing but but um uh you know back back when I wanted you on the show originally uh I wanted to ask you about the Bill Murray segment uh watch uh please go watch uh John staff favorite moments uh because there's the segment with Bill Murray was fantastic it's actually been shown a couple of times on the uh in different incarnations on from different points of view on was the date on that the Bill Murray thing that that would have been that winter that would have been 92 I think as well I know I watched that in high school for sure I remember that segment very very well I believe it it was the winter you know I got hired in the spring and it would have been that winter um it seems to me um okay yeah and this was a time when I really was still getting my feet wet at the show you know um I mean I you know I'd probably turned the corner as Rob put it and had you know some successes and had become part of things but um but to be cast in that bit have 1293 was was the Al Sharpton Bill Ming thing 12 oh October February February 12th 1993 February oh okay okay there you go so yeah 93 during the dead man there like three4 of a year or so um but I didn't come up with that piece just for the record I I can't remember for certain who did it might have been Spike um but I was cast in it and um and I found myself yeah doing comedy with Bill Murray and Al Sharpton for God's sake um and skating with Bill Murray holding hands uh it was Sur and I was I was recognized on the subway the next day oh that is that's fantastic I love hearing that PS to it uh that was that there's the question right there so so you're familiar with Joe grman right like uh yeah sure okay so he's really funny yeah oh he's great AB absolutely um but also did not come up with this bit was cast in in the bit uh because of the because of the facial expression and whatnot and and and I love talking to him about got my my old Parts there we go okay so that was that was kind of where I'm going with that a little bit uh in segments like that where you were supposed to kind of have it the Sullen kind of a thing the Bill Murray one being probably the best example of that uh because that's that was the centerpiece of the of of of the writing um did you break a lot during that like were there times where he was trying to break you it was it yeah okay you guys just got her done I I was terrified I think so I I wouldn't have been in a position position to like be enjoying the comedy of Bill Murray while I was on camera I think I was just like oh please don't let me screw this up because it was live yeah you know those were not pre-taped Rollins those were a a light would turn on here we go and we're yeah like it was it was live to tape you know TV and so I there was a whole audience watching me do that stuff and no um so yeah it was live and we just did it and uh I was you know I was probably had you know just crazy amount of adrenaline and praying that I I wasn't gonna flub it mess it up make Bill Murray angry at me make Dave Letterman angry at me um but I even though I'm not a performer and I'm a shy guy I did enjoy doing bits like that it was um you know for one thing I think you got like if it was like 700 bucks or something yeah it was like like a crazy amount of money to just get to um you know people really wanted those those little appearances because he could really supplement your your income for the week from getting cast in something well chrisan Kai when he came on he talked about that he he broke it down because that's his mind right breaking these things down for he did that so long for for the musical acts and whatnot he very succinctly put it you wanted to be um is it a principal is that what it was if you had a couple lines or whatever you to speak kep bumping it up yeah it kept bumping it up as to um as to as to what you could be now that being said uh when it comes to remotes and Extras and things like that when you move over to Late Show probably the most legendary legendary one is is um our our fun with rert segment that we all love so much with our friend rert G by the way okay before we get to that uh how did it feel the first time you realized you had a sandwich named after you was that a that must have been kind of a neat feeling that was that was a lifetime highlight I mean there go that's never going to happen again that was yeah that was crazy and then yeah the only um thing I'll say is I think it left the menu at some point and I had to do some soul searching but uh but um no I mean that was that was crazy that was like for to be able to walk somebody to be able to bring my parents to a a you know a deli in New York City and be like look up there I mean oh my God that was the the greatest thing ever and I did happen to enjoy the Beckerman although I I feel I enjoyed the the Schaffer a bit more that was more of my go-to that one popular sandwich the I was gonna say that one seems to be the one that that people seem to like the most um I can still taste it today in my mind I can taste the Schaefer oh that is gonna right there that's gonna that's gonna make rert feel so good right there what were you gonna say Don I'm having trouble finding this top 10 list can you tell me again the oh too bad the um uh the I just don't remember very much about it I don't remember the topic topic uh I feel like it might have been something about George uh HW Bush but I'm not positive and I feel like it involved him jumping around saying more explosions more explosions um but that's all I can tell you so it would likely during the uh the election season of '92 yeah that sounds about right I mean could well yeah you weren't there for for Desert Storm right uh so but but yeah like during the election happened yeah yeah okay so we'll find it oh yeah oh yeah now Don's Don gets on a mission and it may be midnight tomorrow night where the text shows up but it'll be um okay so rert we set the stage with that uh you know obviously the the Affinity you guys have for each other um at Rupert's retirement party there was a trivia contest uh I was standing right beside Rob Bernett most likely to his absolute Chagrin ah crap I got to stand beside the Letterman podcast guy um one of the questions was um fun with roer and Chris shakai actually was the guy who was mcing that trivia contest it was very very funny I saw it yeah it was and and uh without missing a be you know one of the questions uh originally rert was not cast in um in in in in the fun with Rupert segment it was somebody else who was it and without missing a beat Rob brette beside me John Beckerman raises his hand wins the wins the T-shirt it was fantastic it was a great moment um the concept uh I mean it seems like such a natural concept Dave is is is more famous than almost anybody in New York he cannot he can no longer be the man on the street but yet has the abute uh uh you know is thef man on the street because of that razor sharp wit um right the concept of having a device where he can still do that without actually doing that it seems so natural do you remember but that at the same time you're moving over from NBC to C was was that concept conceived as part of the bank uh in 30 Rock knowing we're doing that or was it actually conceived CBS it came later okay yeah to my recollection it came later um they one of my first successful remotes was fun with a car phone oh I love Carone Carone night was yeah yep yep and and and McDonald's came before fun with rer right um the drive-thru I believe the drivethru because the reason I'm asking is because there was sort of a precedent I mean obviously David called people on the phone you know and messed around with them but there was kind of a precedent for pieces and even pieces that I worked on because I I was the one who pitched and edited uh fun with a car phone and then mm-hm I I edited McDonald's that wasn't my idea but I'm pretty sure but I for some reason I edited that piece um and so I think I had you know I'd thought a lot about oh it's great when Dave can mess with people and they don't know it's him and then I think the the jump was and I don't know how I or why I thought of it was yeah what if he's feeding lines to somebody like a puppet and um and you know we're shooting it with a hidden camera and like I knew that was a good idea but it was really half an idea because I called it fun with Phil and I was like yeah we introduced this guy Phil who we can cast and you know we send him around and Dave feeds him lines through an earpiece um and I was cast as Phil um not because I wrote it for myself I didn't write it thinking I'd be cast um but I think there was something about my kind of quiet hang dog uh Persona that got me cast and then um it wasn't until I'm pretty sure the day we were going to shoot it that the word came down that Dave had second thoughts and wants to cast rert which I think the first step of that was we need to cast somebody we can't it seems awkward and weird to introduce this not even real per like my name isn't Phil you know like who is this guy why is it him you know the audience doesn't know who this guy is so let's do it with somebody the audience knows and then by that point the audience knew rert very well and it felt like he'd be a good fit for the the construct and so he was cast um and I think it was uh you know the director's idea to um put the glasses with the the camera in the bridge of the glasses on them so you could get the POV shots um and the the actual material of the piece you know I contributed to but um much of it was generated by the writers and by Dave himself um you know on the Fly uh you know I've I've had comedy writers I remember say to me over the years that um that they wish they could have the the raw footage from that piece because um it was probably the best example of just Dave is uh an improviser that exists on tape because it would go on for hours yeah and he'd be improvising and and much of it would be um just really great I mean we we had more than enough for the pieces that we we used you know um it was just a very fruitful use of his abilities uh you know to come up with kind of characterizations off the top of his head and entire backstories for for who rert was and names and agendas and and then when we got Leonard teer involved it like it kind of cubed itself in its levels of insanity because Dave would be improvising conversation he it was only him feeding lines to both rert and Leonard who if people remember was kind of a a an actor that we discovered and used in some bits who kind of resembled almost like a a 1930s like strong man from a you know some like a you know like weird New York comedy of the day or something he was just a a very odd looking and sounding guy and um Veronica yeah and so so we'd have you know obviously most of the comedy of fun with rert was what are civilians gonna say and react you know to this crazy person but it evolved to a point where we'd have you know uh rert and Leonard would be sitting across from each other at an outdoor uh Cafe outdoor seating facing each other both wearing the backpacks that contain the equipment and the glasses that contain the hidden camera and Dave would just be feeding them lines to have a conversation with each other no matter if anyone was even listening so it was kind of just like Dave impr ring both parts of an extremely bizarre conversation you might over hear on the streets of New York City and we would air this stuff and it was it was fantastic it was some of the funniest stuff that in my opinion was ever on the show it was just you know rert and Leonard has these almost like midnight cowboy esque Duo of you know guys in in Manhattan um just just having lunch together it's uh oh God it was so fun it was so great um so chronology go ahead say you're right about the the sequence uh fun with the Carone was in September 93 and the first fund with rubert was a year later December 94 yeah there you go okay yeah um and and yeah that sounds right to me um because I I you know there's initial that's the other part too you know rert appeared early on uh with meet the neighbors and and and you guys used him in other ways uh so he was established on the show already and and I remember that and then suddenly it's like okay now we're taking rub up to a next level like we're we're we're we're adding adding fuel to that uh you know Rocket Fuel to that um safe to say you were in the van for most of those uh most of those uh segments yeah yes I I went out uh for a bunch of those and then other people started um doing them too um but I I did several of them and edited uh several of them which was you edited several of them wow well done sir well done thank you I mean that's tremendous you know with plenty of help from Rob and Dave I should say but that was that was a bear of a job because just you had hours and hours of footage and you had to synchronize all the you know Dave in the in the van feating lines and then and the rert POV and like i' had never had an undertaking like that before um ason rert saying his thing and then the astonished look of the person and and the way that you guys would do it had that quick cut in my opinion yeah it's some of the greatest comedy editing ever was was was stuff in that se those segments so for your part in that congratulations on that I need to ask and I should say when I say I edited them I I'm using the wrong words because okay obviously we had professional editors and I was not the person sitting at the uh at the on the Avid at the Avid or at the time the precursor to that um you know very highly skilled editors like Mark spata were actually doing that work but I was um supervising it as a producer and writer and right um and that's really I should have said producing the um not editing them because I I didn't all credit to those those guys and GS like again that is just an extremely well uh put together piece from like you said combed through from hours of footage ruperts told us about the hours and hours and hours each one to break it down and and um it's fun talking to the to to the writers um particularly on Late Show where extras became a thing where you learned how to become uh a producer of a little mini show because you were a part of every single part of the process with of course a small crew that was with you too you know micro compared to an entire production but really this it's just scale it's the same kind of process um in in doing that I need to ask there's a specific one in my opinion the greatest uh the greatest Letterman bit that never existed but could have existed happened in LA and uh I don't know if you know where I'm coming coming with this but there was a time where rert was in the van in LA and he was in the other van and and there was a whole bunch of conversation going on and they were outside of a shoot somewhere looking at another shoot happening and there was a decision that was made no we're not going to take part in this the shoot that was happening was Jay Leno was doing something over there and it was a consideration if we're GNA send rert to go bother Jay Leno and you guys decided not to do it were you in the van for that shoot I don't think I was i h i feel bad but I I don't remember that no don't feel bad I'm just looking I'm I'm the one guy who I know was in the van won't come on the damn show and that's Mr Walter Kim uh you know and I say that jovially and happily I love Walter uh I know he was in the I want to know about that moment very much because I want to know about the consideration did you hear about that I don't remember I I just don't remember it's uh man I don't have the best memory in the best of times and that that was I don't I just don't remember um you know that's pretty funny though we should have done it it would have been great hindsight being 2020 absolutely um you know but at the time when you think about the time and and and and and and uh the culture of the show and everything that was happening between both shows you can certainly see why it would be a debate and and and you can understand why the decision is made but from a pure entertainment standpoint uh boy what a what a thing that could have been um so and and and uh this is where I want oh what do we got here you kind of froze up a little bit Don can you show it again I thought I thought you were finished I didn't want to butt in no no which of course there he is on late night he was part of a top 10 in Mar in Meg paran's office oh my God october1 that's amazing that's amazing um now that you've said that Don there's a whole bunch of people that have been asking me if we can get Meg on the show have actually tried um I'm going to try again I'm going to give it in in 24 going to try and and reach out to her to get her on the show that would be a again you know these are the some of those seminal moments that made um that the building blocks of of of of of what late night and late show were um whatever you do don't don't mention my name whatever you do okay all right I'll do my best um I got the uh at this time John you know you you yeah you're in you know talking about the culture between um you know a a late show and The Tonight Show at that point um you know the the the changes that have happened you know Morty leaving that sort of thing worldwide pants now becoming a thing at what point did your job des and then never mind head writer I mean I you know we haven't even got to that oh my God I can't believe we're almost two hours we haven't got to that yet um I'm having fun I hope you're having some fun doing this oh yeah no it's great it's great EXC go as long as you want to go keep going um so so when does head riter happen and I mean you know uh and and then then moving over to worldwide pants that's the part I wanna right so headwriter happens because um Rob is asked to uh or you know is interested in uh developing uh a sitcom with Bonnie Hunt who was you know a good friend of the show and and um a worldwide pants production and you know which is a huge opportunity for him uh he's put in a couple years as headwriter which is a long time to do that job and I say that knowing there are people who' done it many multiples of two years um it's still a long time to do that job and especially at the level at which he had done it you know the the whole transition uh from 12:30 to 11:30 and you know launching the show was a massive hit um so he got that opportunity and decided to take it and had to pass the Baton and the decision was made to uh to have it be me and donic to do it together and um uh you know Rob had evolved a very close relationship working relationship with Dave that neither Don donik nor I had um Rob was uh was in his 30s we were in our you know mid 20s um and you know it wasn't fun let me just put it that way I think you know we we we certainly wanted to succeed and and put everything we had into it um but uh for whatever reason I mean I I got to the point where I simply couldn't um do it anymore and uh I think after after like a year or so something like that maybe a little more um and I I said so and you know felt bad about sort of uh uh you know I don't want to say abandoning donic but I I just felt like I just didn't want to do this anymore and so I I stopped doing it and you know continued on as a writer which I still want to be and donic finished out the term and then left the show uh and moved to LA and you know continued on with what has been a spectacular uh career and you know including like The Simpsons and you know creating stuff and uh you know all kinds of things and uh uh yeah so so you know look all I'm going to say is um either at that point in my life I wasn't entirely up to the task Dave wasn't entirely up open to the uh scenario or some combination of the two but uh that was that was about as low as I've been kind of emotionally maybe in my life uh I was a a very bad place from having done that for a year um so what happened was uh when donic left it was like well they're gonna have to find someone else now in the meantime I should add I think so one day I'm minding my own business uh in the writer's office and Rob calls up and says I've left the Bonnie Hunt show that that hasn't worked out and um and I want to know if you'd be interested in developing a show with me because you know by that point we had collaborated a lot um and I guess he you know thought of me as somebody he'd like to work with uh which is very flattering and and I said you know yeah I'd love to do that and so that's when the development process for Ed began now in the meantime um uh you know what wait no I I did I have this right okay this yes this is all accurate so everything I've said so far has been correct so the next thing that happens is um Joe topplin who had been a a very highly regarded writer on NBC came in and um and took the headwriter position Y and I started developing Ed with Rob so that became like my job um you know were you still writing for Letterman at all at this point I may have been very marginally but not really um still working out of your office at the Ed though yeah okay um yeah I think I I think I was moved to a different office on a different floor um like a development office like a pants office as opposed to a l off yeah yeah yeah and and Rob and I would um you know we were starting from square one of what kind of show we wanted to do and that the development process of that show was very unusual but that's what I was doing and then several months into that um Rob says Johnny let's take a walk and I'm like what's this going to be and he explains to me that something very big is happening which is that uh Dave has asked Rob to replace Morty as EP of uh of the show of of the of Late Show um and you know and I don't remember or know how much it was also about taking the Helm of pants you know and all that side of it but it was like Dave wants me to run the Late Show so I'm not going to be able to do you know a prime time series with you at this time um we can do it later but it not gonna happen right now uh and I would really like you to be my headwriter um while I'm doing this and and so this this was a job that as I said had been very unpleasant for me um and but I really wanted to develop a show with Rob and so I I said and again I know I'm sounding probably privileged and unappreciative of of opportunities I was offered who wouldn't want to be the head writer of of a of a big hit comedy show but some things you learn just aren't for you um yes and I but I said yes I said I'd do it for a year and um and so I did and uh was it easier the second time than it was the first time um I think it was easier in some ways I think it was easier to do it myself rather than with donic not in any way because donic isn't amazing but I think there's some jobs that are best held by one person yep and when it's just you like I don't know you just it's more manageable to my brain when it's just me and and I've got to get it done um the rapport with Rob certainly helped as well right that couldn't have been a that was a tool that you didn't necessarily have in the same way before that's true I yes I think I think it was um I think it was a boon that Rob was there because like the first the first time donik and I had been headwriter together it was like Dave's right-hand man had left the building and it was like now there's these two punks and you know at least when I was doing it for this my second stint uh Rob was there you know and so Dave was comfortable with having his guy there and uh I um still didn't like that yeah well that was writing as much like you're you're you're making sure the stuff that comes in fits the sensibility of the show and you're piecing it and all the all these other moving Parts when this is a Lampoon kid who loves to write and you're now not getting a chance to write the way that you were and you have all these other things that you're not necessarily wired for right like it's a I like to sit it it it is I like to sit in a room by myself or with another couple people yeah and have a you know an hours long conversation that eventually develops into a great idea I like to sit at a computer and know that in an hour I need to hand in a bunch of top tens and see if they can be the best you know I'm capable of doing yeah I don't like looking at a calendar and thinking about oh if we want to do um you know a wacky props piece 3 weeks from now I have to assign it today and I have to get it to you know the art Department you know on Monday I hate having to think about stuff like that I you know on any job I've had since then and I probably could have done this better at the time but I didn't have the tools to know this yeah I would have delegated that I would have said to somebody you know what I want to do wacky props at some point it's your job to figure out yeah how to implement that on the schedule but I don't you're my organizational Zar here you go I don't want to think about it yeah yeah yeah and I didn't have that and maybe it's just part of the way you know everyone's brains are different I don't have that capability um I'm also you could delegate right but I didn't know that and nobody told me that and I didn't have the maturity or tools to realize it and to stand up and say I need somebody to do this for me um I also uh you know I mean I think I had a certain rapport with Dave but it wasn't what Rob had and who knows why um but you know I remember going out on a remote with him early in my time there and he asked me how old I was and I said 23 and he said I'm 46 I'm twice your age and 23y year Gap that's a lot you know what I mean and um you know and and younger people than me went on to be the headwriter and you know what can I tell you I just I um I think I you know I was probably just uh I didn't have the confidence that I probably should have had at that age to do that job I um you know I felt I was stepping into not just the shoes of Rob but the shoes of people like Steve odonnell and Merl Marco who you know I considered giant just incredibly brilliant you know yeah like Legends and uh uh I I'd be far better to do that job today than I was then but I would never do it today um uh smart enough to know better yeah yeah I think I just you know what about Joe oh no well he I'm sorry um Joe had had said to Mike on on one of his conversations that early on on Late Night Dave's writers were maybe a couple years younger than him yeah uh Jerry was a couple years older than him they were peers there are more peers and that's right and the age of the writers remained constant while Dave got older that's absolutely correct uh and I I think it figures into how things evolved over the years on that show um it's funny I've been um for some reason I've been watching a lot of Larry Sanders lately and uh you know which I watched back in the day but I I don't know why but something got me to just start kind of binging it uh for fun and what I noticed about the show you know much of it uh is kind of in some ways true to my experience working at in late night but the thing that never resonated with me on that show then or now is that the staff is not afraid of Larry the staff is just talking to Larry like he's he's one of them in a way like staffers at all levels they're they're they're not afraid of him they're not like uh you know they're they sometimes kind of are critical of him they you know they Zing him or they mouth off to him or whatever and I there may be shows where that's the case but this was not one of those shows you know and some of it may vowe to the fact that I was he was literally twice my age you know so it wasn't like I was having a beer with the guy it just like you know it just wasn't that at all you know um uh so yeah I forgot what question I was answering but but yes I did I did it twice I think it probably was a bit easier the second time y um actually there's a third time there's a third time back further on to 98 where you and Rob are sharing the or at least the closing credits state that you and Rob were sharing the headwriter credits I don't even know what that was I don't even know what that was probably a transition per something back on the closing craw here if I had to guess I'd say what what that was MH with me and Rob is I bet what that was was um we were probably it was probably at the point where I had been told you can are now fully resumed just development for worldwide pants but Rob probably was like listen I kind of need need to you to hang in there for a few months and kind of Juggle a couple balls here and I'll do it with you so like you you won't feel like it's just on you for that time we'll do it together and then we'll be done and I think that's what that I think that's the explanation for that I think that's what happened there the more I'm looking at it it it maybe even more simplified than that because that the the the show where you and Rob shared headwriter credits along with Rodney uh was on the prime time special the fourth Prime Time special so that's an even simpler explanation yeah okay you know what what what and this goes back to what I didn't realize was that Ed was a good four years gestation it it was nearly that it was nearly that uh it started in 2000 right in fact 2000 you know what Don I think I think the first um the first script with a date on it could have been as early as 96 wow yeah yeah yeah um because we we worked on it for a little while at that point it was a half hour um and then we got you know pulled out of it to uh go back to running late show and then we got back into it um you know did a whole Development season with CBS uh they shot they made the pilot but then passed putting it on the schedule uh NBC executiv saw it and liked it and asked us to redevelop it with them um with the same cast who luckily were available and that was the point at which uh so the CBS pilot was simply a guy a guy's whole life collapses in a day and he moves or he goes goes back to his hometown on kind of a drunken inspired quest to ask out the girl he never had the guts to ask out in high school and kind of restart his life by doing so and um and you know when she doesn't completely uh reject him he's so excited that he buys the local bowling alley that that he had you know gone to as a kid um and decides to move there sounds a little stalkery from a 2023 Point 2024 point of view but uh what what can I say um that was the the CBS version when NBC wanted to redevelop it with us they said uh you're G to need to add a franchise which is the kind of Showbiz term for uh jobs like you know lawyer doctor things where you can have a case of of the weak structure and I remember Rob and I sitting down making a list of every job just every job people have you know and deciding that lawyer was the right kind of job for this character in this town and uh one of the executives at the time uh Scott sassa he was the guy who was like he should put his office right in the bowling alley and we're like huh yeah okay yeah okay and uh so I have to credit him for that and that's what the tagline for the show always what everyone who knew the show oh the bowling out lawyer show yeah okay that's right that's right and uh and so we added that element where he could um you know help the different quirky towns folk with their legal issues yeah and uh um and that was the version that ended up um airing on NBC going for Four Seasons I gotta ask about that David Letterman is this is the the S we've had George Scheer on the show before and and and I mean I want to get some other CBS Executives I'm working on that but but but George did a really good job talking about how um you know this is a historic thing David Letterman the signature star of of of of CBS um and and and the the disappointment that must have been felt um at certain levels of CBS passing on this show NBC picking up this show NBC's now got a worldwide pants show on uh people make fun of CBS for what are you doing you're not picking up the show of uh you know one of your your CBS signature Stars uh did that disappointment or ridicule or or or any of those feelings that came with that reach your level here's here's how I look at that first of all I think one of the reasons NBC wanted the show is because they like the idea of having the guys from Letterman do a show for them instead of CBS I think they you know I think that appealed to them as Littlefield liked that idea Warren Littlefield liked that idea guys like that well it was Jeff zooker and Scott sassa okay and I think they like they like the idea um I mean they wouldn't have done it if they didn't see something in the show and in Tom Kavanaugh and Julie Bowen and the other people we had on show um but they uh they like that idea the second thing I'll say is that you know I always tell people like kind of younger than me in the business and whatever that like there are there are times in your career when the wind is blowing at your back and there are times where you're trying to walk into the wind and when you see someone succeeding if you been around a while you know that part of it is their Merit and part of it is that the wind is blowing on their back in some way you're not aware of most likely yeah right at the time that I did Ed I was a 20-some guy who had never worked on a sitcom or on an hourlong dramedy or on a legal show or on a show shot on film or any of these things I was a talk show writer right um Rob had marginal experience outside of being a very successful late night talk show writer the fact that um we even got to develop uh a prime time comedy for CBS was because the wind was blowing at our backs we were two of the valued people at one of the hottest things the network had going we were the guys I mean not to take away from our achievement you know Rob had masterminded the transition to uh you know the writing the new show I was by his side for that and um but suffice it to say like there's reason to think that they only ordered it to please Dave not because they thought oh this will be a hit for our Network you know yeah um it was not the type of show that was you know usually developed or usually put on the air um and I kind of feel like it was this thing where like yeah you know we made this deal with Worldwide pants they brought us a a you know piece of material we'll buy it we'll even go as far as to let them shoot it but we're not putting this on the air you know like it's not it just wasn't suited for their air yeah um and some of that by the way they may have been absolutely right about like I said it didn't he wasn't a lawyer it it might not have they may have been absolutely right to not do it but I think it only got As far as it got because of the circumstances around it the wind was at our backs yeah and and you know the fact that I that I had uh created by you know co-created by and shared uh EP credit on literally the first Prime Time series I ever worked on is absurd yes and I was the winded my back guy at that point that other people must have looked at and been like what is this about in the meantime I didn't have any of the training to do that job just you know I didn't I'd never done it before you know and I I Le had to learn to do it on the job and uh so you know again not sure what question I'm answering no no no but I gotta I I'm I'm G this is where I jump in and talk about the Charming uh self-deprecation that that comes in there's stake and Sizzle you're talking about the sizzle got you to that place but the show is the stake the the reason that we keep asking and people have been asking for years about the show like the show was fantastic and and it last year for Four Seasons that's nothing to say it did exactly you're right you're right and I God yeah I um you know I wish I had enjoyed it more while it was happening because uh yeah and you got Reynolds we got Bert Reynolds man I yeah Bert Reynolds I I have to tell a quick Side Story which is that um so Rob and I Rob and I loved uh Bert Reynolds just from you know uh being gen xers and uh you know you love Bert Reynolds he was like he was the greatest and and so we were casting uh you know we had our character Mike played by Josh Randall who was Ed's best friend and we decided to do a storyline with um with Mike's dad and so you know you are always encouraged to Dun cast things sometimes you want to sometimes it'd be fun to you know bring in somebody that's amazing like we had gotten to stun cast uh John Goodman and you know a bunch of other people and we uh and so yeah the idea of Bert came up and he said yes and suddenly there we are on set with Bert Reynolds and had our picture take I me we just couldn't believe Bert rynolds was on our show and but the story is that Bert uh Bert's character was supposed to like kind of do that to Mike's cheek like you know like kind of condescending yeah you know face slap ber slapped Josh with all the strength in his body and he did it on every take and and Josh Rob and I were not on set for this I don't think because I I think we would have had to intervene and we weren't informed of this but it got back to us that Josh was getting angrier and angrier and it sort of was this thing of like am I gonna tell Bert Reynolds to ease off does that it was like some kind of alpha thing but Josh had this just like I mean this is a horrible story but it's also funny I guess but it was like it was something in Bert that like he he had to do this to Josh and see if Josh could roll with it which I guess I guess Josh did but how crazy is that it's like there were I don't think there was a stunt man on set for the day because we didn't think we were doing a stunt we thought we were doing this and yeah I I don't know if I told that to anybody publicly before but uh God God Rest Bert Reynolds for he was a maniac old school yeah he was he was that um I hate I hate that we have to move I hate that we have to move toward the end of this um that's okay okay so so feel like we've jumped through a few Hoops here you've had fun right John like I've had a absolute blast talking to you about this stuff um I if we can redesign a way that will entice you to come back will you come back can we figure out something what that we can have you back in a future episode talk about some more stuff yes would you say no because I'm asking you right now with the camera on no this has been a blast like it really is um can I ask about your T-shirt real quick oh I did you custom make that you guys did you okay uh this shirt I just happened to see um I think online at some point and it was for sale and I I bought it yeah it's fantastic it's great I don't know if that would have been a a carsen shot or not um but anyway it was in the opening crawl of of of late night um it was it was a video so it was was unlikely marks yeah well there you go that's Absolut yeah yeah you're right um that's so anyway uh uh I want to finish off a little bit just real quick uh asking you about what it is that you're what you're doing that part doesn't have to be quick um and then I've got a little teeny tiny anecdote that odonnell gave me and I want to go back to that moment of the the the the okay the part before head writer before all the moving over all that stuff about the writer room um but I want to know about what you're doing now and some of the projects originally when I when I when I reached out to you uh London right doing some stuff was heading off to London yeah I um yeah so um you know so I've spent the last uh several years in La you know developing uh many projects for uh uh different networks and you know the way the way one does and um uh and I you know I I I have one that's going to be on TV so that's that's uh that's the big news which is great um so this show is called uh dinner with the parents and it's um there's a show uh that was on for uh several years uh series not Seasons as they call them over there um uh they say like the first series the second series I don't know why they they do that but um it's called Friday night dinner it was created by uh brilliant guy named Robert popper and you might be able to see it on a streamer um here now I'm not you know things come and go I don't know but um but it was a show what's that I didn't hear Don did you say something Blues Traveler BL traveler what I don't understand the reference oh John popper oh popper that's where it is okay there you go sorry Don normally I'm quicker and I would have got that yeah yeah yeah it's always funny when you have to explain it yeah that's right I have met both poppers because I I I got to meet John back in the 90s when he was on the Letterman show and hang out with him and uh then many years later uh the great Robert popper who um yeah he's one of you know the top comedy guys um over there in the UK and he he created a show uh you know kind of based on his family in which um the the sort of uh construct is of it is that every Friday night uh this Mom and Dad's to uh young adult sons come over for uh Shabbat dinner and the you know it's very farcical so it's it's not it's not like oh they all sit at the table and talk about what happened to them that week and you see flashbacks it's none of that it's just they all meet for dinner and things go you know absurdly wrong for all sorts of reasons because they're all maniacs and that you know they all uh make terrible choices and and there had been some attempts to uh develop it for American television that had not gone all the way um but a lot of people still seem to believe that there was no reason why this couldn't work as an American show and uh and at some point I was looking for something to do and um uh Kate Adler and Alec botnik uh at CBS Studios had you know the rights to do this and um and ask me if I wanted to take a shot at it and I looked at the show and I I felt that the family was you know had a lot of of similarities to mine just in its you know a a mom a dad Two Brothers yep uh who are you know kind of jokers and um and so I took I took my version of it out uh and you know long story short it's going to be on Amazon uh this year um and it's now called dinner with the parents sorry I'm losing my voice after all these hours doing this yeah but it's it's um it's something I'm I'm enormously uh proud of and excited to get out in front of people uh I don't know if you'll know these names but um the Stars include uh Michaela Watkins Dan badal uh Carol Kane um a guy who's huge on YouTube named uh Daniel Thrasher is one of the brothers yeah uh Henry Hall uh who is uh equally fantastic and uh more of a newcomer and plays the other brother and um uh John Glazer who people who love late night might know from Conan uh but who's also done other many hilarious things uh as their neighbor um so always got to be a wacky neighbor right yes uh and he is that and uh we also had the Delight of having uh Rob Delaney guest as a different neighbor on a couple episodes uh and be phenomenal um and many hilarious uh English actors because we we shot the show um outside of London uh and um you know we all blew over there and did it for four months and uh you know I have many stories to tell from that but but maybe maybe once the show premieres we can talk about it yeah we just created a natural point to when the show premieres that we'll we'll we'll we we'll do then uh a very cool kind of Deep dive for everything that you can say at that point when is the show premiering um I haven't been given an official date yet but but 24 though it be in 24 it'll be in uh well God willing it'll be in 24 yeah yeah okay how many episodes there's 10 of them 10 uh roughly half hour episodes congratulations will they all come out at the same time or scattered um I don't know yet uh no I don't know yet I was talking to Chris Harris get I I love I love what they did with Frasier I love that they released them one week isn't it great it's so great the show itself but also the fact that they didn't just throw the whole season on us where where where my wife and I could because we would have inhaled it in a weekend and and I am so grateful of the fact that that they made us wait for it there were a couple episodes like back in the day we watch it twice um in between and and and it was such so rich and so good um yeah yeah I mean but whether or not I can't wait to watch it just to support what you're doing too but it sounds like it sounds like it's going to be really uh a great piece of entertainment that you've made congratulations on that it feel good to finish feel good to to see it to fruition like that oh yeah I mean it uh for me it was very satisfying um I I loved the whole Prospect uh process of doing it from beginning to end and uh the people I got to work with including Tristram Shapiro uh storad kakar who's one of the uh British producers of the show Kenton Allen um Gina Lions uh you know it was great having making a new family um over uh in England and um uh and the cast I adore and I I just I'm excited for people to see it because um you know I I I was really left alone uh not that you know the network and Studio don't have their input they do and it it was very helpful but I there wasn't anything I wanted to do that I couldn't do um awesome and the actors were able to take everything uh I threw at them and make it uh so much better um and the writers were uh really terrific and great to work with so yes this is this is um look for whatever reason maybe it's my um my Advanced age and my uh depth of experience but it's I can't complain about this one I I would love to do it again and I hope I get to um and uh yeah it was great I hope oh go ahead are the characters all British because you mentioned Carol Kane I they are are they acting as Bri no they're not they're acting as American which is what they are um yeah so it's like it's very simply um what if you know a typical American family got to dinner got together for dinner every Friday night and things went you know horribly wrong uh that's that's what it is um and why we shot it in England you know maybe will someday be explained to me but uh but yeah but but the show um the show takes place in America and with the exception of some of our lovely guest cast who we couldn't fly in just to do you know uh a single scene um uh uh the cast is American um but yeah it was you know got to work with a lot of uh English character actors who would be very well known to uh you know English viewers and maybe less so to American ones which is fun um that is fantastic um I'm we're about to turn into a pumpkin here the the the the system is going to shut down so I have to I have to close her off um John you have been spectacular I thank you so so much for coming on the letter podcast are you kidding me this has been such a pleasure and an honor to have had you here um I just appreciate you for for for for how thoughtful you have been uh throughout this whole process but also uh I thank you so much for contributing to this body of work that we care about so so much and being such a big uh contributor to that thank you so much John I appreciate how much you care about it because it's nice to have somebody care about you know the the work that you put some of your um best in you know uh most productive time into So yeah thank you for caring thank you oh uh it's been great I can't wait to have you back and give give our best to Rob Bernette I was gonna say this camera but I don't think that's gonna be possible what was that Don I I was going to say this off camera but okay yeah go ahead okay yeah go ahead um I was going to say this off camera but I don't think that's going to be possible uh thank you for you know what you're welcome Don I do know what and look you uh you know you don't have okay um but I do I do want to hear what Ste o' Donal said about me what happened to that oh you know what no okay it was it was a um he talked about how you were you got to see the best of the writers room and he he referenced couple of things about uh Hot Potato um um oyster eating contests um some of the things that were that were there and and that was the um tub of tea comes to mind tub of tea yes we would get a delivery from a Chinese restaurant and if you ordered tea it would come in you know a delivery container meaning a plastic tub with a lid snapped onto it as if it were you know fried rice or whatever and it'd be this boiling hot tub of tea and there there was a thing where everyone would chant tub of tea and you would have to drink this just punishingly hot liquid that was just cooking you from the inside out um yeah there was a bunch of stuff like that it was it was a really fun room I you know it was as it was at the time a largely male and extremely white room which I think was to the the deficit of the show but um but it was nevertheless um you know I we've talked about many of the people and some we we haven't gotten around to like Steve Young we haven't really discussed uh who's somebody I loved but um talked no I know I know he has Jerry Jerry for God's sake uh we have um it was it was a great group of people to be part of uh and I miss them um you know as an equal or or as a a plea well I mean you know initially a plea and then eventually uh I would hope an equal I mean donik is you know pretty much same age as me um Spike just you know tiny bit older Jill Davis was just a a tiny bit older I think and um uh so you know it wasn't like I was like a little kid compared to many of them um and I still see uh donik and Rodney quite regularly um Rodney I used to live in Venice here in LA and um Rodney and his family moved to a house that was like a 40c walk from hours and moved since then but like for a while you know we could just drop by each other's house and and donik is still a really good friend and Rob and uh you know all these years later so um as I said on the the uh the Letterman Channel that's that's really what I take away from that is there were just people I loved and admired um so much and got to work with and that's that's what it's all about well and today's episode has been an expansion of that uh tell all those three that they're all on my list and uh um um this has been it's great to do this one of the things that I want to do with this show is create some of these like like Steve Young and Steve O donnald are going to be coming on at the same time and we're going to be going through some stuff and and reminiscing that way and and and um certainly any of your yeah any of your fraternity that we ever want to do that with any combinations of uh of of you know there's an open Forum to do that um and I'm happy to just help provide a structure for that all of us as the folks who um adored what it was that you guys did uh will be um you know a secondary uh uh recipient of this amazing um fraternity and res sharing of these memories uh John Beckerman you are you are a giant yourself sir um and I know that you will never think that but there are many of us who do uh believe that and and are very very grateful for your work thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be on the Letterman podcast and to be just to to be on here as long as you were and and this this felt really really good thank you so much man oh thank you for having me it's an like I said it's an honor to have anybody want to talk to me for a couple hours I I'm grateful um and it was fun thanks guys outstanding thank you Don appreciate you as well I'll do a real quick outro Mike and I you can go John and I can keep on talking yeah exactly I'm going to do a quick outro um this is why we do the show uh this is exactly why we do the show um so great talking with John about his tenure uh in the Productions of David Letterman and Company uh go to hello- delli our one and only sponsor hellodd deli.com your only source for official Late Show with David Letterman merchandise per uh packed with Care by rert G himself hellodd deli.com and this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike chis coincidentally I am Mike Chisum thank you and good night overcoat and