Joe Grossman Part 2

you're watching the Letterman podcast with Mike chisen endorsed by the hello Deli yeah once again welcome to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike Chisholm if you are watching this uh broadcast you may notice that I'm wearing the same outfit that I was wearing when I did the intro to Joe Grossman part one well that's because I'm doing it on the same day it's the magic of video editing uh at its most basic level um yes I am very excited again to uh a broken record talk about Joe Grossman when we last left him it was revealed that he is working for The Tonight Show we're gonna start right there talking about that we're gonna move into uh how he started with late show and uh all sorts of other stuff we're talking about Samantha Bee a little bit because when he left late show he went to Samantha B um I believe he did the entire run there as well that's uh full frontal was Samantha B so phenomenal work there uh now working for The Tonight Show but we are going to finish with a conversation that I uh am delighted by if you were to make me pick my very favorite if you if I if you put a gun to my head um and and well hell even if you didn't this is what nerds do nerds like to talk about oh well you know what's my favorite moment of this or what uh what's my favorite what if moment in this franchise that kind of a thing um you know what if Batman fought Superman and we found out on screen or at least sort of did a few years ago what would happen if if you had to if you if you gave me the um opportunity to pick one era of the entire David Letterman run um that I would have to say is my favorite and I'd kind of plant my flag and say it's my very favorite era it would probably be when late shift 2 happened uh when Conan uh Conan O'Brien um you know was given The Tonight Show and then ousted from The Tonight Show and all the things that Jay Leno show all of that stuff um and Dave's reaction to it nightly I I Dave one time called the Golden Age of Television um Joe was Joe was a big part of that he was a writer for the show at that point uh and and he had actually a moment on there during that that that made me howl and still does to this day uh being able to talk to him about that was really cool because he and I both have an admiration for for David Letterman and for Conan O'Brien and have since we were since he and I were both kids again we're both around the same age which is one of the reasons why I just appreciate him so much and um anyway so that's near the end of the episode of part two here uh why am I talking about it well I like the sound of my own voice now I don't really uh actually I really don't like the sound of my own voice but I do really like the fact that I've had this conversation with him and that we could do that again down the line um I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I clearly enjoyed um partaking in it uh so without further Ado here is the Letterman podcast Joe Grossman part two magic is clearly gone but you still know that there are some really special ghosts wandering these Halls somewhere so here's a question for you back then uh in the offices of Conan or now in the offices where Seth is have you ever seen the pickle no no no I I I've never really been in the offices of well I was never in the office for not Beyond like the reception area to drop off some mail or something um but I I mostly just in terms of my work for with the Conan show I can't even say I worked for Conan no no I understand audiences sometimes in 30 Rock but I wouldn't go into the offices or anything like that that wasn't really my place but I I would you know lead tours into the studio and I'd do my own little Spiel and I'd slip in a few you know by the way Letterman used to be here too and that was a really good show and I'd probably talk almost as much about Dave as I would about calling in there um but yeah so I did that and the only time I was in the office for uh for for Seth Meyers uh I did interview there for a job uh about seven years I guess after Letterman ended up I was lucky enough to you know I wrote a packet and I got the interview but and I had a meeting with Seth and a few other people there and they were very nice and very friendly and and he seems like one of the the nicest most well-adjusted and hosts out there um but unfortunately maybe that's why they didn't hire me they're a little too well adjusted to have me there but yeah I did not see the pickle okay well there's somebody who did get the job back there I don't know when they started working but they worked for you guys and now they work for for Seth and I've asked them can you please send me a picture of the current pickle if it exists or not um I don't know if that's gonna happen or not but anyway now that you're in 30 Rock all the time I wish you luck if you if ever that's something that you want to see I hope you go see it Seth must have really enjoyed you though because I mean you talk about a writer like that must have been a delightful meeting a couple of writers kind of throwing things around together uh he was no he was very friendly I think I was just you know I'm sure they interview a lot of writers and honestly none of them they we're a certain kind of breed because Steve Young talks about it and he says that that we're bent and and and you know the most that we can say is oh that's funny you know we're broken comedy writer the broken comedy writer mentality um but you're his Junior just like I am and I see you not just deadpan that's funny it doesn't seem like you're quite there yet and I don't know if it's a progression or not but it doesn't seem like you're a broken comedy writer uh no no I I I I I I showed up broke and I assure you um I I uh uh uh no I I can we're all on a spectrum uh pardoned upon but we are on a spectrum not necessarily the Spectrum but there's a little bit of both to be honest yeah and uh there's a spectrum of social skills you'll meet a lot of commentators who are very awkward and quiet or creepy or whatever and I'm sort of toward that end but not the worst but there are also plenty of combinators who are very outgoing and congenial and and affable like you know my my wife always says about Lee leonberg who was one of the writers with me Letterman oh he's he's the most normal writer I've ever met like she spent most of the people I've worked with she said oh Leah's so nice I like him because he's normal you know and you know God bless me and all these people we're very nice people but we're we're a little tricky to well I I would throw throw the idea of quirky out there I can um I can certainly relate I'm not a comedy writer but I do very much enjoy writing um and and if I can throw clever in there and every once in a while I I actually connect with the ball and there is clever there there's quirks that come come with that personality that I've always been able to kind of identify with people like that so let me just ask you this have you ever collected things do you collect things no not really no I don't I don't have the room for it the space for it collecting things is one of the ones that O'Donnell has talked about with me and a few others um but sometimes comedy writers do but usually there's a quarker there a quirky hobby a quirky interest things like that is that you do you have any quirks like that no I'm I'm the most normal person you'll ever meet in the world um my own I don't even know what there you'd probably have to talk to my wife about that okay uh and and what does your wife do by the way uh she's actually a sort of an environmental sustainability expert um so she works on like she knows things she's a smart person yeah it's like oh my God yep I feel so worthless um I've got one of those in my life too I I can you're preaching to the choir my friend right and then I leveled up when I when I got that one I was uh yeah yeah yeah well no no no no yeah they're a lot so you know and you know I I go on TV and drink urine so you know that's fun which is environmentally responsible it is oh my God I'm sorry if I stepped on that in any way shape or form holy cow that's fantastic I had a beautiful beginning middle and end on that one fantastic that was not a planned thing that was not trying to get anywhere it's just me rambling and trying not to uh let too many silences take over um how many kids uh two kids two little girls yeah what are the ages uh they're nine and four oh I got a four-year-old granddaughter and she's my favorite thing in the whole world yeah it's a favorite thing oh my gosh it's a very very fun age and and yeah yeah and she has no idea what I do for a living and I'm so happy for her um I'm sorry I think we got off on a tangent before and you're asking me about uh about the the path to Letterman from from college and such perfect uh I don't know if you want to ask me something else to go back to that no please so the other thing when I moved to New York in 98 uh my backup plan no I backup but I had sort of a two-tier thing was okay first I'll try this page thing but also I found out that um I've done a little bit of research and called some places like I found out that that shows all these late night shows uh none of them would accept any kind of outside submissions from any amateur writers unless they came through an agent with the exception for some reason of Letterman the biggest show as far as I'm concerned was the one that was willing to read material from literally anyone as long as you first got a release form and fill that out saying and if I see something like my idea on your show I promise not to sue you basically okay so I requested that form when I moved here in 98 and now are these packets or is this like a faxer type thing like well I wasn't really sure at the time okay it turned out to be uh it's threes form and then it came with an assignment oh interesting okay right uh basically here are three top 10 list topics fill out the jokes for these topics and then also you know write two or three pages of miscellaneous ideas that you think might be good for the show so I got this in uh November 98 I remember is when I finally received this packet and it was just terrifying it's like you have your whole future in your hands yeah what do I do with this now so I remember it's like you're playing Plinko and the price is right it's like oh gulp okay yeah I guess we gotta don't screw this up and and so I got this packet and like okay I guess I got to do this now this is real so I gave myself a one month deadline at the end of November of 1998.

yeah it was basically three or four weeks and to send it back and that packet sat in my desk drawer for four years because I was too afraid to send it in I I wrote the top 10 lists and I spent way too much time on those and I wrote a few other ideas and I looked I thought this isn't good enough this is if I have one shot I don't want to screw this up so let's just not even try at least not trying oh you're breaking my heart so that thing haunted me like The Telltale Heart just beating in my desk drawer for four years um but in that time while the packet was sitting there I I you know I did the NBC page thing uh then I got the drop of the magazine and I I started off as a a copy editor which is basically like a proofreader you know spelling and punctuation and usage and all that grammar and then I I got a few chances to start writing and then writing more they liked my work the magazine so I can write articles and then I became an editor and what I found was oh I've sort of developed a little bit of confidence in writing for public consumption I've gotten some positive feedback from my work and after a year or two of doing that I thought okay I think I can muster the courage to revisit this packet so I filled it out and uh did you change very much of it yeah okay I kept like half the jokes I looked back at some of them and thought you know I don't know if I can do better than that it's not great but I'm not going to beat it but yeah probably about half the jokes I I changed and I I added some new other ideas that I don't even remember one of my any of my miscellaneous ideas thankfully I'm sure they were terrible um but I I mailed in the the packet and and amazingly within a month I got a call from uh Bob Borden do you remember Bob oh my gosh he was the writer's assistant at the time but he was also an on camera guy he did a lot of remotes and stuff yeah saying hey uh the head writers the Stanley Eric and Justin's staying all the time uh saw your packet they liked it um could you write us another packet and I said sure okay another one okay yeah okay are you watching the show you know semi-regularly or regularly at this yeah yeah of course yeah you know I I I dropped out of watching a little bit in the mid 90s a little bit Yeah because I was in college and I was just barely trying to have a social life at night um but also um again I love Dave I love the show but but the show had gotten so big in those first CBS years that it lost some of the appeal to me of the the the the quiet weirdness I know they there was a reason for that bigness they kind of had to do that to justify CBS 11 30.

11 35 show it's Dave's Tonight Show as well absolutely what was presented and it hasn't changed that bigness is what made the show very successful at that time and it was what needed to be done but as a viewer I didn't connect with it as much so I I faded in and out for the next few years but by this can I throw a can I throw a music analogy there because we've talked about this a lot on the show here and and I mean I've been thinking about this and meditating on that a little bit again which shows you how uh much of a life I have but um the idea it's almost like your favorite indie rock band suddenly going big oh I loved Green Day When kerplunk came out but after dookie everything suck you know like and I think that um and which I don't feel by the way I'm I'm able to love the Chili Peppers now and from back then but but it's kind of like that where some people are like that they love the Indie scene the whole almost a you sold out type type type mentality and and oh I like this one just me and my little friends liked it now that Everyone likes it right and there's a lot of that within the Lettermen Community I even see that to this day I'll see people who who gravitate to one or the other but there's a lot of people also who gravitate towards light show so but you were okay so am I yeah that is the Perfect Analogy it's like you know yeah I loved REM in the first few years but you know I mean stand is that really the best that you know of course there's Chris Elliott uh connection notwithstanding forget a life but uh um but yeah it's like it it does have some of that uh you know I I never thought oh dates sell out but it was just it's not as much for me anymore it's not my private little clubhouse with my friends it's everyone's been invited to the clubhouse which is great but maybe the clubhouse is getting a little too crowded maybe I'll step out and get some air for a few yeah the fact that there's bottle service now has changed the atmosphere a little bit Yeah and and I actually kind of like that after a few years maybe after some of the hype had worn off and Dave was no longer it was pretty clear he wasn't going to be number one yeah consistently against Leno it's like you know maybe we can go back to doing a more quiet experimental stuff so I I kind of liked some of the they recapture a little bit of that as the years went on I thought definitely oh my God the moment that billboard went up and I don't know maybe it was before then too but the moment that billboard went up for me you know the shit-inning great we're number three we're number three in late night that may have been the funniest thing the show ever did uh it was so good I I've heard I'm not positive I think that may have been Rob Burnett's idea I can't I was not there that I've just heard about it but just seeing that picture it was it really encapsulated everything about Dave and what made him in my estimation so much better than Leno who was a very talented comedian yes yes of course Dave was just someone who had this other non- something else he couldn't identify that just made him really special so I'm certain the Spice Girls had lots of talent but I'm a Radiohead fan and I think that that's where the you know there's there's nuance and different they're different ones pop the other one is is more nuanced I'll tell you about that I I screamed and yelled at why don't they release a poster of that I would have a poster of that in my current you know it was just so funny and we had George Schweitzer who was the head of CBS marketing for right 50 years he was there forever we had him on and and it was funny because we asked him I asked him the reaction of that and he said uh at first he was like what no and then he got the joke and was like oh yeah okay we're gonna do that and wrote the check and it was no problem like let's let's do this one of the greatest moments uh and I'm and that's in my opinion where they would go back and do some of these um you know the the uh the Tim tomerson Tales from the old west stuff um that just seemed to make no sense whatsoever and when he would stop I don't know if you ever wrote for any of that or not but I I just I I felt like they really did a good job of keeping the show really big Dave is the most powerful man on TV his interview skills are are are uh you know First Rate above all he's more powerful than the guest beside him but that you guys would do some crazy weird stuff still like and and and I felt like it uh you're right the pressure kind of went off that being said you're in the writer's room every single day yeah I mean the pressure must have been nuts yeah yeah it was absolutely and uh I'm sorry again I think this was a tangent here that that uh I'm just happy to do this with you I hope you're having fun I'm having a blast here thank you thank you uh yeah so um oh yeah we were talking about the the path of the show so yeah that was the second packet I'd ask you to write a second packet submit that and then yeah yeah yeah and then Bob Bob called me up on the phone again a few weeks later saying yeah they like the second pack of two could you come in for an interview and oh yeah okay sure yeah okay so I uh one day on my lunch break from my job at the magazine I walked over to the Ed Sullivan Theater and walked into this building it's like for sure I'm allowed in here I know I'm not getting arrested hallowed grounds yeah and I went up and I had a nice talk with the stangles for probably about 40 minutes or so where we talked about literally anything but the show yeah um and we chatted and I did my best to be at my most normally socially you know trying to do my impression of a normal sociable person and uh afterward okay thank you very much for coming and they saw right through that immediately yeah they did they did and uh so I left and then I'm waiting to hear back and I'm waiting to hear back and I'm waiting to hear back and I never hear back and I watch the show every night and occasionally they have a long crawl with the credits you can see the writers did they hire anyone no not yet not yet oh yeah there's a new name on the credits there you go that's that's the job I was going for they hired do you remember who it was uh I don't offhand okay this would have been uh early right yeah probably earlier three yeah so um I figured okay there you go you had your chance you did well enough to get in the room that's that's good enough and you know you got an interview yeah so I started making peace with that I've got a good job at the magazine it's okay finally make peace with it after like six or seven months and then my phone rings again and it's Bob Borden Spangles want to know if you can come in for another interview oh no packet or anything just come in and talk to them oh okay sure okay so I go in for another interview and I talk to them I do my best to do an impression of a normal sociable person and think it goes okay leave and I think okay second chance I really I really didn't mess that one up I don't know if I can say certain things say whatever you want I don't know what the FCC is monitoring here um oh God no they don't even know we exist they never will and uh so you know watch the credits every night you know I don't hear back from them watch the credits credits credits and there's another new name so there you go again I have not gotten the job and this is it I've had two chances yeah this is it you just get the hint they think you maybe have something in it every time they meet you they realize oh no no there's nothing here and then like another six months goes by board call coming from their interview okay yeah sure why not I go and talk for about 40 minutes and they offer me the job so it's like oh like I I had given up multiple times it was a bit of a roller coaster yeah but they they they eventually uh hired me and I don't say this as any kind of Grudge or anything I I say this with with endless gratitude um that they saw fit to bring me in and then bring me in again and bring me again and keep me in mind like the first time I think maybe they hired someone who had certain almost anyone had better credits than me at that point one one thing I think was someone who had been at the onion which of course at that time was huge and I mean even now it's a good credit and I was just working for a local magazine it wasn't even a Humor Magazine so of course um so I was just endlessly grateful that they remembered me and brought me back and I really don't care if I'm someone's third choice I'm happy to be their third choice I wasn't my wife's first choice so it's okay I don't care as long as I I if I eventually get the thing then that's all that matters and and thankfully God bless them Eric and Justin uh gave me the chance when another two guys I want to get on here it would it be a good idea when I have them on and I have them on together is that the way to do it with those two uh that's really more of a question for them I don't know no no no I'm just saying if somebody were that's on paper to me that seems like it would make sense that they would bounce off each other and all of that I don't know if that's if that's just something I've made up in my mind though you know I yeah I really don't know I mean I mean they're both obviously they they know way more about the show than I ever would and they they could tell you a million stories they're very good storytellers and they're they're funny people um but yeah I I honestly if you talk to them separately you get two shows so I'd suggest that well fair enough but fill out the feed a little more um so yeah so so yeah so again I'm endlessly grateful what was your first day like man what was your first day like when you went there like did you give two weeks notice at the magazine did you have anticipation knowing or did you instantly say okay I'm I'm doing this no no no no they asked me to start on Monday and I said well I really got it I mean this magazine has been really good to me so I want to give them proper two weeks notice and everything so I took that also a to give notice and B to privately Panic for two weeks exactly um because I really did need to get myself ready for this um and then yeah my first day again I I remember this is April 5th 2004.

um I I uh you know I went in and I get my little ID card that I still have somewhere where I look in ridiculously young and skinny and and terrified and uh yeah I go in and I still remember my orientation which is uh Bob took me to my office he said uh there's your desk uh write some extras that was my orientation so if you're ever a new writer at Letterman just know where your desk is and that you need to write extras now you may be wondering what are extras yeah there there you go like that's an important question that um I asked I said what are extras he says like any little funny things oh okay sure so what am I supposed to write some knock-knock jokes which is terrifying as you said the parameters are way better in you know especially in your first day you want a parameter or two right yeah were they rooking you um no no no I don't think so I don't think anyone was literally trying to set me a failure no but I I think it's just you know they're all people they have a job to do yeah you you figured out and you know so it's it's tough you can kind of see maybe why some of the previous writers like I said I was their third choice because the previous two guys who they'd hire for that spot we were both dismissed after two or three Cycles yeah um and that doesn't mean three week Cycles at the time 13 week Cycles 13 or sorry I meant to say 13 13 week Cycles okay yeah as I believe for decades even going back I've heard writers for Johnny Carson from the 60s saying oh gosh those 13 week Cycles were killer it's like yeah this has always been the way and and yeah um so yeah uh apparently the the previous two people for that slot had not been able to to figure things out and that's not necessarily their fault I mean there are some super talented people who came to those writers rooms yeah at Letterman and and didn't last and and it's it's big names big names hugely people also some hugely tough people who didn't become big names but are still really great and it's just a hard thing to latch on to and and I'm very lucky I I at least had been watching the show so much over the past 15 years that I at least had a decent sense of his voice like I know there were some writers when I was there over the years who would come in you'd have a new writer and it asked him oh hey if you how long have you been watching the show did grew up watching the show oh I never really watched the show yeah Steve Young Steve younger knew Calvert DeForest was yeah yeah and uh well I think he knew who Calvert was he just didn't know his his real name I think oh maybe that's what it was yeah yeah right yeah but back then he was just most the viewer would just known as Larry Larry yeah um that's right but yeah these writers would come in and and they didn't know the show and it's like oh gosh are you gonna be okay I hope you're okay but if you don't know that it's it's going to be so much harder and so at least I had internalized some of Dave's voice you know you watch them long enough you start talking a little bit like him you start vocabulary yeah yeah um so I I could at least do a very poor man's impersonation of his voice good enough to get me renewed a few times but um yeah that first day I know I got a few jokes in the top 10 list I know um I got the Act five that day which was very lucky whoa hold on you got on the first date yeah it was the Act five so it's like the biggest throwaway piece on the show yeah well some also considered it The Last Vestige of where you could throw weird or creative late night stuff in like potato potato like I mean holy cow you have something on your first day Joe yeah it was fine yeah the Act five I don't remember exactly but it was some kind of reminder to set your clocks back when it was probably a good six weeks away from daylight savings time or something like that um so not the greatest piece but but good enough to get to get on the air for 15 seconds and again the the top 10 list was was always something that was um for better and worse sometimes formulaic by that point you know there's a rhythm yeah it can't be too long for shorts uh there's a still I'm sure there's a syllable count almost like with the rhythm of of each and each one and and and there's some predictability with that right so you've got your you got your framework yeah yeah and and going back you know when when the top 10 started started in the 80s it was a little more conceptual a little more weird uh very non-topical but by the time they realized what an effective comedy device it was and we can just make this a franchise that goes on forever yeah it became you know basically another outlet for what are not quite monologue jokes but not too far off for monologue jokes yes so um that was something that I I I could do a decent version of um but like those extras as they're called that I never that took me a long time to even figure out what those were that took me a long time to really crack properly it was months or even a couple years before I felt remotely confident about those and and I'm sorry um what those turned out to be are uh um at that point it was usually done while Dave was at the desk after the monologue he'd sit on the desk they might do a few they'd basically given up on trying to do uh coherent desk pieces with like 10 jokes you know 12 you know props or you know new books or or whatever those are too hard to get past Dave so we decide well let's just do like sort of a few little comedy hors d'oeuvres basically like like very short discrete pieces that don't depend on each other they could be you know give them 10 and they can choose three that though there's there's they don't rely on each other to work so um yeah it's Tapas basically it's it's that kind of thing for uh instead of dinner well here's here you have some you know uh potato puffs or whatever uh I'll tell you this uh what what developed for me as a as an Enthusiast uh who was able to evolve with Dave as he started playing the stadiums and getting bigger and going on tour and all that if we're using that analogy I I enjoyed that very much I'll tell you this uh right up till it was it might have even been 9 11 on now that I think about it um although I've never really made that connection I've been trying to figure out when my very favorite obviously I would love when he had good interviews and things like that but my very favorite segment of the show was the segment right after the monologue um and eventually before it was you know Paul played me to the desk and Paul would do that but then you guys got to the point where there'd be a commercial breakout for the monologue and then it was it was that first segment that became I I the only way I can describe it is comfort food for me at the end of a day whether or not I mean I had gone through all sorts of different life at that point it doesn't matter UPS Downs whatever I was going through that was a constant for me was that first segment after the monologue and that's where extras ended up yeah uh that's that's usually where extras were and then as you said when when they kind of broke up the the monologue in the first step they moved what would have been the Act One Step into the second act after after the first commercial break yeah uh around that time extras kind of uh migrated into the monologue so can you tell you know three or four jokes and they say oh you know I saw an interesting thing on television the other day or take a look yeah and uh you'd show a little videotape piece yeah or you'd pop out or like like we just any of those things yeah yeah so that's sort of extras became like those little video things you'd see in the monologue that um you know fake commercials or promos or weird doctored clip of a movie or sometimes it'd be like a live element as you said it might be me or it might be Alan or might be you know a pat farmer coming out to talk to Dave about some totally relevant thing um those were the live things we generally call those enhancements by that point I don't know if those previously would have been called extras or not okay I don't know the terminology is very very uh amorphous um but yeah so those x-rays eventually became uh monologue components and those were just the bane of my existence for for many many many many years uh you know when I was starting it's like okay come in the morning you have to have five basically five pitches for those things so um and you had I think 40 minutes to write those you come in at nine spend 20 minutes 10 10 or 20 minutes writing topics for the top 10 list and then you start working on Extras until like for another 45 minutes to an hour or something like that wow and it's trial by fire it really is it's like okay I have an hour let's say generously an hour to come up with five good extras ideas that's 12 minutes a piece okay so are you are you newspaper boy are you like magazines are you I I became that yeah yeah I was you know I subscribed to every newspaper in the city and like flipping through the New York Post at 5am trying to find stories to write about that I would wake up way too early to start doing this because I know I'm not going to do this in an hour if they want five ideas I'm gonna need to come in with at least two that I know are okay and then hopefully I can just kind of crap out three more on my desk um but yeah so that was that was a really really rough time for me um yeah not a good time for my mental health certainly um but but eventually I sort of caught on and I figured out okay I guess I can do my own version of this and I started getting things on on that part of the show and uh so uh most of the pressure was self-imposed because I was never told you got to step it up okay you're in trouble here no one ever did that no one ever said anything like that but I was also aware that you know I was the third choice because the two other guys had gotten fired after six months or whatever how long did that stay haunting you it sounds like it's even haunting you to this day man uh no I I would say after a good three or four years I felt pretty comfortable there so you know it's only about as long as you spent in high school of just me torturing myself what year did you get married uh that was 2011.

2011.

okay um I was thankfully I was single when I got to the show because I didn't have a sustained relationship that's kind of where I was going with that language actually it was not good for my mental health or from being around other people like my my whole life was just oh God I I have to have to have five ideas tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and it was it was rough and I also knew that not only had those two writers who had preceded me in that slot not made it I also had to check the credits and see no turns out like the last seven or eight writers they've hired were also like no one lasted more than a year so um wow there was a huge turnover not not a huge Trooper there was a huge turnover in this one slot the other writers their philosopher all stable you had Steve Young and Tom Rupert the illenberg um Jeremy started the same time as me but they're looking for another family member and they had their hearts having a hard time filling out that that extra seat in the room and that's when Jeremy and I started around the same time and we were the two who stuck around it even though like the next seven writers they hired after us didn't last very long so it's like we're this maybe we got lucky in terms of timing I think it helps that we both I had a fairly good handle on Dave's voice yeah but uh yeah it is a lot of pressure like I said most of it is self-imposed but you also know that that you know they don't they're not going to let you Coast forever so yeah sure um were you the little brother in some respects I kind of felt that way I mean I was yeah you know like I I was 28 Jeremy and I are both about the same age yeah uh and then everyone else was at least five years older probably and some 10 15 years older so yeah I felt like the kid in the room for a very long time and for a long time I was the newest writer because whoever they hired after me they keep firing them so like four or five years yeah I'm still the new guy and at that time at that time there was no hazing involved thankfully yeah they did have one traditional thing for uh the new writer at that time it's the most boring thing imaginable but anytime they were doing a Chiron quiz do you know what those are it's like they they do like oh let's do the Thanksgiving Parade quiz or something like that there's a bunch of b-roll they show b-roll of of the parade or they showed b-roll of the uh the New York Auto Show or or whatever and then here we see a scene of a straight line B straight line CG joke about what you're saying call those Chiron courses and to do those we had to screen just hours and hours of footage of you know we sent a camera craft just to film the most boring things imaginable and you have to try to find Little Gems in there and the tradition was the newest writer will be the one who operates the tape machine as we're screening the footage it's not a bad thing it's not cruel or anything it's just you're sitting there at this 40 year old beta machine yeah VTR they called it um and they're rewinding it and probably they didn't really even have a pause you had to um so for five years I was the new guy it's like I've been here for five years why am I still in the you know it wasn't a bad thing everyone was very nice it was just weird to still be the new guy for that long but eventually after you uh actually I think we stopped doing Chiron quizzes you retired it you retired the segment and the tradition congratulations but I don't know if another writer really stuck until I don't even know who it was it was probably 2009 2010 so yeah um but yeah uh the first three Cycles are still I was probably worried um but they were always very nice the stencil was always very nice to call me in and say hey just so you know you're doing fine oh that's great don't worry about what you get on the show I would say it was very interesting I should be doing differently I mean it could give you advice I wish they'd give me some feedback but their feedback was always don't worry they're doing fine and and again maybe maybe they were just tired of firing people or reading submissions like you know let's just give someone a chance to see if they can stick I don't know but uh for whatever reason um after a year or two I feel like okay I think I'm safe I still hate writing extras every morning but I think I don't have to worry about getting fired yeah so it made it easier on those days when there were many days when I got nothing on the show and it's it's fine for a day or two but if it gets to day three we've got like on the show you start to wander around and sometimes you get a bad streak it's a week long it's like you know uh it makes you question a lot of things but yeah I appreciate you talking about this including by the way I got my podcasting chops or what podcasting chops I have um because I host a men's mental Wellness podcast and and and and so that is very dear to me my wife's building a men's mental Wellness app called he changed it and I I I contribute uh very little but I do contribute by hosting the podcast to it it's a whole bunch of smarter people than me that want to change the world and and and and um it's funny how in my the things that I've learned in my whole life is that comedy and mental health seem to always kind of go hand in hand in many ways and I think part of it is also because um people use humor as an outlet so much yeah and it's just uh you know comedy in my opinion comedy is a device for mental Wellness in many ways to get things off your chest and to and to um you know to get things out in a semi-positive way and you know I I appreciate you even talking about you know the the struggles of that it looks like a hard job that would be taxing on your mental health yeah there's a lot of rejection and a lot of yeah and a lot of the Judgment really comes more from yourself than from the outside like people will rarely say to you this joke sucks yeah but then you sometimes wonder what are your soft oh geez this joke does this joke suck I think it sucks and are they just being nice they're too polite to tell me how terrible I am yeah um and yeah sometimes that was the case there were times when that was certainly the case um but usually it's like you know if someone else catches a bad idea in the room we all do it we all have those moments and it's not like oh that person sucks it's like oh geez it wasn't me this time it's gonna be me next time yeah but it wasn't me this time and that I think helps you be a little more supportive when someone else just sometimes you just have to pitch an idea that you know it's not good but if they're silently for the whole meeting well that doesn't look good either so you just gotta put out whatever you got yeah you know but I think also it also is insurance that you don't get a big head as well like it definitely keeps you humble yeah yeah and I know I I again I've listened to your interviews with with so many other writers and it's come up uh the Letterman writers don't like compliments they don't take uh they don't take praise very well they just the writers there brother no I'm almost Sue hum the other day would not take a compliment for me to save her life uh you know it seems to be everybody it seems to be the family Dynamic man yeah well I mean there are a lot of people like that in any business or outside of any industry but certainly at Letterman that there was I think an attracted and also uh sort of nurtured those kinds of people like it was a safe place to be that kind of person um oh that's cool yeah so it was like but there weren't a whole lot of compliments forthcoming because we all knew you know if you could see something like that that was a great bit but then the book before response was uh yeah you know it's fine I guess look at the time we got another show tomorrow morning you know it's like it's like if you say to Dave you know that was a great show last night what do you think the show said well I guess it's stuck to the tape you know it's that sort of thing yeah so we all have that same sort of mentality as well you know we did well enough today but again yeah you got to come back tomorrow so um yeah and speaking of coming back like I I want to be I'm trying my best to to to construct a show I could talk to you for six hours I am limitless I'm the Energizer Bunny when it comes to this stuff here I want to be very uh cognizant though that we're putting on a show that I want everyone to listen to the whole thing and so I hate the fact that I'm even saying these words I hope we can do this again um because I mean I've got so many questions uh uh yeah but I do have a couple that I would like to visit before we leave if that's okay sure um the last one I'm going to ask you just so you're aware things that you wrote that you're particularly proud of that's kind of one of the last ones I'm going to ask you and I'm going to get your brain your subconscious moving on that before I say this next one the other guys whether or not you were the kid brother whatever it is hey let's get Joe on the air he's got this thing we write some things for him uh you had a pattern of of things that you would do um well yeah you know this one just popped into my head so I'm gonna ask it um what's the little piece of business this where when Dave would kick you off stage and you would turn and look and try and go the other way behind stage was that piece of business yours or was that written for you um I have to ask that question I'm sorry I think Tom rubrack was the first person to put that into one of my pieces um again I apologize this may have been Lee and Jeremy's thing I think it was time to dinner first and then Lee and Jeremy ended up putting it in all of those my the closest thing I had to a recurring bit was was me reading the little jokes from The Notebook and uh Lee and Jeremy wrote pretty much all I would you know I I'd contribute a little bit to the scripts here and there but but they wrote almost all those um well you they didn't perform it though sir so let me do the content here the piece of business where you would turn towards the desk and start walk it was expertly exactly performed I would I would laugh out loud almost every time so it would get boring it was nice to give Dave one more reason to get angry at me before I left like he already hates me let me just give him one more little thing I don't know that way that way okay so that question was just kind of thrown in the question where I was going and then I had to ask that one the fan in me just had to come out and ask that uh was you had these guys uh writing for you okay give it to Grossman putting they think it's funny to put you on there was there anybody who you did that to that you wrote something for somebody else uh to kind of return the favor not consciously maybe but oh yeah this would be good for this person that team mentality uh on the writing staff or anywhere anywhere in the store in the store the production the behind the scenes in front of whatever and it wasn't even a matter of like paying it forward it was more just always it when you're writing for this kind of show and you got to fill an hour every day it's always good to have cast characters basically that you can turn to so it's not just as great as Dave is it's you want to look at other people occasionally and see you can interact with other people like that's it's not just Dave on his own it's how does Dave react to Alan how does react to Tony Mendez how does react with Biff so anytime you can find a new character or or build things out it helped us so yeah I would write for all the characters we had I don't know if I established any new characters um but yeah we would I write for Pat and Sue like who were we talking about here no yeah anyone I I did things for Alan I did things for Pat I did things for Biff uh by the way I did lots of things for Rupert I I I I I I I shot things with him in his Deli I wrote lots of silly bits for him I wrote things for you know some less like uh you know build a lace or you know Brian yeah or you know Brian Ted I think you know him he used to come on as the sort of the weird nervous quiet kid like not not too far off from my own character just like a you know a little here's here's another awkward nervous guy so uh Anton's lap yeah yeah so yeah it was just a matter of who is it who we can find some kind of interesting Dynamic to interact with Dave so so the more characters you can find on a show the more it gives writers to work with and again that's something you don't see as much on the shows now because I I guess the whole you know let's the shows aren't don't do as much of the the supporting characters as they used to which maybe is a good thing because it was such a Dave thing that very nice too derivative now Kimmel does some of it you know because he's obviously a huge Letterman fan he's probably the best Advocate out there for for Dave there is yeah um but yeah you don't see as much of it anymore uh okay so so um I I do want to visit this with you really quickly and maybe maybe this is something that we we move into more in part two but the legend of uh of the post-mortem and it seems to have evolved throughout the Mythos and as it's grown and as it's changed um were you ever part of a post Mo like the post-mortem that we heard about when you and I were kids that you know Dave coming in after the show not being happy with it all of that I don't want to get Negative necessarily with this but but the dynamic of after uh the show with the post-mortem were you ever a part of that uh I was never part of any meeting with Dave uh like actually with Dave or just the writers talking about I mean you know whether it's a trickle-down you know Dave goes in and talks to the producers and then suddenly okay they're in the writer's room and and this has kind of come down from uh from a reaction yeah we totally have meetings after the show The Writers you know not every night but either after the show or the next day their head writers will come in and say okay so you know Dave didn't like this or Dave wants to see more of this we totally hear but always come mediated through them like we didn't we were not in meetings with Dave Dave was not coming in the morning and hanging out saying hey hey what's up Joe what do you got for me today no it wasn't like that um I didn't did you see it more on camera than off yes absolutely there it is okay um and I don't say that as a criticism because honestly no God no I think I think it was better for me that way because I would have been too intimidated to be around Dave so it was much easier for me to again it's the coward's way of writing jokes like I don't want to be around the guy who has to deliver them I just want to anonymously slip them to him you know I got my start mailing in jokes you know that it's it's yeah I I I work best from a distance away from line of fire I totally get that and I think a lot of folks there uh related to that I don't yeah I I I love that that's part of the culture um there's no commentary Pro or against it's that's that was the culture of the show which is exactly why this show exists uh you know and so many people have said to me many off camera too you know I saw more Dave on camera than I did off camera and I watched it for decades I did see him off camera now and then I wasn't I I I first ran into him maybe three or four months into my time there and it was just at the end of the day and I was leaving it by whatever eight or nine o'clock at night and I get in the elevator and I was going and the elevator door opens and oh geez it's Dave's Floor please don't let it be Dave please don't let it be Dave just because I don't know what I'm gonna do and of course Dave steps on it's just him and me for 12 floors and he sees I'm carrying a newspaper so he says he doesn't know who I am by the way yeah I think he assumes have an intern because I look like I'm 12 years old he sees the newspaper and says Ah where'd you get that newspaper and I said um I brought her from home and he said good answer you've had a lot of problems with people stealing papers okay and he was just joking he wasn't like that's a joke for you in the elevator but it's like yeah that was my first attraction and it was it was a good one because I gave him a chance to sort of do what he does he really likes which is which is kind of teasing staffers and for all the talk you hear about oh staffers told not to look at Dave don't make eye contact yeah I don't think that ever came from anyone in Dave's office I think it came from people who were trying to protect Dave without knowing what he wanted um because I know from my own experiences and from other experiences it would be much worse if you were passing Dave in the hallway and you didn't say hi like he might be like like why when people I once and this is uh this is like toward the end of this show it's probably true yeah I've been there for eight or nine years he knew who I was um I was going down the stairs to the 12th floor between the writer's floor and the fifth floor just to drop something off in someone's office and I see Dave coming out of his office so I'm only like a few steps down I figure you know what let me just turn around and go back upstairs so I don't have to bother him like I'm I'm still afraid of him after eight years and I was just a little too slow because he heard someone turn around and go back upstairs and he said why are people avoiding me am I that awful it's like oh God no now I've made him feel bad it's like no no it's fine Dave I just forgot slept through my office I'm sorry so he was which is great because you turned it into a joke now now it is a joke because you forgot something in your office and I was trying to play it off like no I get it yeah and you did but again he was being socially normal and very gracious and I'm the one who's making it weird so you know for for all you know every time I did interact with Dave outside of the show he was very friendly I mean he could be as well as famous as he is for being tough on certain people and there were certainly times when he could be very very hard on people it was almost always directed at the top level people it's the head writers the executive producers the the director certainly you know um the people who are really really high up on the ladder and and not that you should be contentious with anyone but he was always super nice to anyone below that level if you were on you know the the kid delivering the mail or the guy running the elevator the freight elevator that he liked to ride in you know he couldn't have been nicer and sweeter and more uh congenial I was gonna ask if you've ever ridden that elevator was that the elevator you were that wasn't the elevator you were talking about though yo dude that yeah he liked he liked using the freight elevator which had the manual lever to go up and down yeah and he would operate it himself uh I I certainly did right a few times but uh not with him in it it was just about regular live Israel so George Clark is going to take everyone up and down in this crazy rickety uh thing from 1931 so you know um but yeah so whatever I did see Dave he was very friendly and he was much better at he was much more engaging than I would have expected like I'm terrible at small talk right um so I I tend to make it weird uh I I remember one time the first time I had to pre-tape something with him or I was supposed to it was after the show but it's pre-taped post tapes um some little bit we were doing together in uh what we were pretending was his office and so we set up everything in the office um and everyone's all set and then Dave is the last one to come in so they can just show quickly and get him in and out yeah so I'm sitting there thinking okay don't be weird around Dave don't be around Dave don't be aware on Dave finally everything's set up Dave walks in says the most normal thing of the world he says oh lovely weather we're having today isn't it and it's like is he talking to me is he talking to someone else he can't be talking to me because he doesn't even know who I am yet I'll wait for someone else to talk so two seconds go by no one no one says anything and uh Dave says okay I guess I'll just go myself and I was like oh geez and again he was just okay does that break up the room did everyone start laughing at that point like instantly yeah director Jerry Foley thank God Jerry Foley says oh it's a great day oh my God yes isn't it beautiful outside he stepped in and saved me and again Dave wasn't being a jerk there he was just making a joke I don't want this to be like oh you know former Letterman writer says he was he abused Steph no not at all he was just no no no no he was calling attention to this this weird awkward moment in a very funny way yeah and of course it was funny I laughed too yeah and actually I have video of this summer because the camera was rolling when it happened uh so I can there's the the audio was not running so he can't see it but you can read his lips and see my reaction and it's like I've watched this a hundred times like oh God what's wrong with delightful that is so what a souvenir that that's that okay one of the questions did you keep anything from the show that is one of the greatest souvenirs I could ever even imagined being an Enthusiast of of this man that you got a chance to work for that that's lovely so any awkwardness that I was with gay was almost always is coming from people who are overthinking their interactions sure should I make eye contact with them am I not supposed to make no just treat them like a person you always said if you ever see him just don't call him Mr Letterman that was the one world I was called just call him Dave don't call him the story okay that's the one thing I was told but aside from that it's just you know if you see him in the hall you don't want to go up to him and talk his ear off but no you can make a little bit of small talk you can you know he would have you know it would just be friendly just be normal after reading Carter's books and things like that and again like I mean I think these things evolved over time as well and apparently you know the difference from 30 Rock to CBS we are on different floors you know in 30 Rock they were all on one floor and and I've had people who've talked to me about the difference is there but I'll tell you this I always thought um because I can't I live vicariously through through you guys Brian Ted are you talking about that I live vicariously through that um it's like oh my God they're doing what I would dream of doing and I don't know what I would have done for the show but I I certainly just dreamed that I wanted to be part of that family and um I always imagined that if I saw Dave in the hall every single time we were walking past each other I always imagined all I would do is I just put my hand up for a high five just to see if he'd high five and just keep walking if not I don't know if it would ever would have happened or not but I had that in my head that that's what I would do if I were one of those staffers you know that's a that's an interesting question I don't know what would have happened um I would not have done that but I think uh we've established that we should not use me as a role model for these kinds of things I have this weird positive optimistic thing that it's just I have this unlimited capacity for energy and optimism and positivity so I don't know uh I I don't know if it would have gone either but in my mind and I've got a bit of a crazy you talk about fun facts I make up fun facts to my wife all the time and hopefully they'll stick like she'll actually believe them and tell others and if she does it's like the greatest it's like a field goal it's the greatest thing ever I I'm bent too so that was always the way that I thought that I would you know if ever I was in your shoes I I'm a weird guy um have you kept up with my next guest you know I haven't very much I've watched a little bit of it yeah and I kind of feel bad for it because it's like oh Dave is still out there Dave Dave is you know he didn't disappear like Johnny did he's out there he has yeah it's only whatever six shows a year but still something and I haven't and there's the the comedy thing he was doing for Netflix also which I I haven't mean to watch I just haven't gotten around to it um but I haven't watched the show much I I I find this my favorite part of the show was always the comedy yeah or Dave just being weird and the the little bit of the Netflix show I did watch it's like oh it's Dave doing not the most heavy interviews but still seriously yeah I like that kind of Tom Snyder though the Bob Costas thing I like that kind of stuff but just watching him it's like oh gosh I just love to see him do a few jokes here or something like that he drops little jokes into the interviews or maybe it's gotten more comedic since I I stopped watching um Chappelle's uh you know again one of the greatest comic minds of any generation even and I love that episode more than anything that episode is my favorite by far um I mean it gets heavy I mean it's it's it's it's it's it's definitely uh got a level of depth to it that's way above now you mentioned that's my time with David Letterman I I went down and and was uh you know blessed enough to go down and see them tape that yeah uh you know you got Dave doing a monologue again and I'm sitting there looking around and it's it's on a video but there's the cue cards of of the very similar Point form way that he used to do it and it's it's it's Dave doing a monologue and I've had a chance to see three of them that night it was absolutely delightful it was it felt it felt a little bit like the old show um and I love that so I think I think you're a virgin you'll give yourself a treat for those six episodes I should definitely check that out um but yeah just just the idea of of the interviews uh you know Dave was a very good interview on the show but it was just not my favorite part of the show and I remember like I always felt a little again it was another one of those sort of old Show versus new show things like when the guests became the focus I sort of lost interest I don't want I want to see Dave I want to see the the family of the show you know I don't really care so much about the movie star or whatever and like I always think about like the old show the difference between the NBC show and the CBS show it's been said I don't know if it was in the cinnamon book or something that the original show was a comedy show within the format of a talk show but the CBS show is more of a talk show that had comedy elements in it and I really felt like that's what it became so I missed those comedy elements a lot but like if you watch the old show like they used to do the anniversary shows every year and it'll be packed with highlights all these Great Clips of all the great stuff they've done all the right comedy bits the remotes the crushing stuff with the press the you know reviewer mail segments and stuff but when Dave went off the air in 2015 and you saw these these highlight reels of his 22 years at CBS almost everything was from guest segments it was you know Joaquin Phoenix it was uh Drew Barrymore Madonna and and or it was the the moments when reality entered the show like like the 911 remarks or heart surgery or or the uh uh the bear the the bear well the bear was great yeah but like like the extortion Scandal or something like everything was there was no comedy that was being remembered from the CBS years it was all just big yeah the stuff that didn't interest me much so so I to me like the best stuff was always just the comedy which again as much as I love the CBS show and having been part of the show I'm also aware that pretty much anything that anyone remembers comedically from the show from Dave's 33 years 32 whatever it was almost all their favorite comedy memories will probably be from NBC and and that goes for me as well so um yeah but yeah I I like I like any Dave and I like that he's still out there and I really would like to catch up on some other stuff because uh it would yeah yeah I'm just glad he still exists I appreciate your point of view there I will tell you this uh if I was to go through many of my top comedy moments I would pick Late Show moments but again that's where I'm a little bit of a uh it's a lot of folks don't there's a lot of folks like me who late show was their Tonight Show and and late night was the a different part and and I look at them almost equally and I know I'm in the minority with with a lot of people like I I get that but um oh my gosh or I can I can probably list 20 Late Show moments that made me roll on the floor laughing quite literally not just the acronym that you see on texting but literally just got me so good um and I know you wrote many of them next time we talk about this uh we talk we'll get into some of the specific things that maybe you wrote um and I'll save it because I gotta I mean I'm probably gonna two-part this one which is again like Joe you have no idea how much maybe you do I think you probably do actually know how much of a thrill this is for me oh uh this has been like amazing and I can't wait to do this more if possible I am going to ask you about one more thing then um my favorite run I think because it is it felt like a coda um in 2010 and don't get me wrong the the last this you know just another plug to Scott Ryan this is my favorite week uh favorite run of any TV show or any broadcasting uh show ever the last six weeks of your show I thought was just masterful it's my favorite run of anything uh in entertainment ever and I'm a giant Star Wars fan and all these sorts of things that last six weeks of Late Show was my favorite it was so good but um 2010 when uh the late shift the sequel happened oh yeah and I mean I I if something happens I get struck by a bolt of lightning tomorrow and I save this for the next show I'm gonna be pissed at myself uh because that to me and Dave facetiously said it to Conan O'Brien you know that was the Golden Age of television it was for me it kind of was I just oh my God it was and I I love Conan so much and yeah so heartbreaking to see how how he was treated and yes I know there's a side to be made for how Leno was in some ways also treated poorly yeah lead up to him and yes really NBC just figured out how to make the worst decision every step of the way yeah but but really but seeing how badly is fed and how humiliated Conan was publicly it was so painful but having seen just everything you know about Jay Leno being reinforced like oh it's the guy we've seen doing exactly the kind of thing you would expect him to do it was so much fun just throwing rocks at that whole story yes okay awesome marriaging Mr Leonard we're not disparaging anybody saying this we're just talking about what happened at that point and it was you guys lobbing apples like you wouldn't believe oh my gosh yeah as long as something horrible is happening at least we can have some try to have some fun with it and hopefully do it in a way that's respectful too yes uh especially to Conan because the yeah I just I loved Conan so much and I still do and me too seeing what that happened but yeah we we had so much fun every night is another thing about what what did Atlanta do today I remember I had one idea this actually a couple years later uh after the whole thing had collapsed and Conan got TBS he came back to I guess I'll let him in one night yes sir and there was that great pause where he walks out and it's just like a minute of Dave and Conan just not saying anything so we we all had to you know I think we were supposed to I don't I don't know if we're supposed to pitch but we knew Cody was on the show that night so we just uh you know I remember one idea I pitched that didn't happen what we talked about it was just Dave saying oh you know Conan's here tonight and I don't I just feel like I don't know I just know Jay is somehow up to something just look what I saw this afternoon and I wanted to get whatever the oldest weirdest car in the world is and have it just circling the block all night as if Leno is we we know he's going to do something here he's better screw this up for us somehow and I think it didn't happen because we couldn't get the car you just you just want some kind of Duesenberg or something something that's but Duesenberg would have been perfect yeah so that would have been the perfect car something that runs runs on Steam well Carter talks about it in in in uh in late shift too so that that's a perfect that would be the perfect car yeah yeah um but also but when the whole thing was happening like every night we just had so much to work with yeah um I I I know what did we do uh well we did uh one uh it was uh when NBC announced okay we're we're canceling the 10 pm mileno show and now they're in trouble because they have nothing to fill five hours of prime time so they're gonna have to start they said oh okay like I guess they were planning to just start for now uh fill it up with Law and Order episodes yeah so we did this little thing it was my pitch it was okay well they gotta have this new law order thing to fill in five hours so it was this thing called Law and Order uh Leno Victims Unit yes and it was just the Preamble you know in the television industry there are two kinds of talk show hosts uh uh whatever host uh Jay Leno and those who have been victimized these are their stories and it was supposed to be the whole you know the style of Law and Order intro going to every host Leno had screwed over over the years so it's supposed to be starring Johnny starring Dave starring Conan Jimmy Fallon and then uh iced tea as Carson Daley was Lord and then uh I guess it was considered a little bit ungracious they took out Dave and Johnny and just kept the other people in there I I know that that was a thing that got a little bit of attention that was kind of fun to do one of them you brought edible back for we did start booking Ed hall for voiceovers which is great because he was with you guys in the first place and went over and came like like it's fun and it's funny and it wasn't oh yeah and I I don't want to speak on it holds behalf because I just barely know I'm playing better a few times he's a very nice guy yeah but I feel like you could probably add him to the list of people who maybe um we're going back and forth no no but but people who maybe Leno didn't treat as well I I don't know everything about the way that ended but it sounds like it wasn't great um the other thing we did that I really liked was because by that time we've done the thing uh several times where I'd come out and tell the jokes about you know Obama that are actually about John McCain or Barack Obama is so old whatever or about George W bush so my favorite segments let's talk about right here I think I think it was my pitch uh let's do a version where it's uh you know everyone's talking about the Millennium Conan thing and everyone's talked about what a bad guy Leno is but you know they're two side let's not blame Conan right so everyone's saying let's stop playing Conor well let's you know let's take a look at Kona here so let's let's do some jokes about what what Conan has done wrong so then I come out with my well one of our writers has figured out a way to he's really cracked the code on how to do jokes about what Conan has done wrong here so it's me with a little notebook doing jokes about Conan and all his crazy cars that he has and how he's screwed over all these hosts you know and he and his wife Mavis you know so uh that was kind of fun but the okay but the funniest part about that though was not you throwing a rock at Jay Leno the funniest part about that was you throwing a rock at the end of Dave uh we have to it's something about it being a mummy it was Dave is so old or Conan is so old that and it was actually a crack about Dave and not Jay day that's right that was the that was the the yeah okay I forgot about that you're right yes and that to me that was the funnest part about that was that you then just turned right around and threw the best rock at Dave uh I just oh my God I love that so much um yeah yeah again it it's real that's uh by the affection that I have for you guys uh I love those moments I love that I went over to uh um Don giller's apartment a couple weeks ago my wife and I made the trip to New York that was a lot of fun he has the uh one of the greatest uh you know I've got some jackets and some cool things for the show we're doing the studio I got a bridge at one of your Bridges that's going to be a part of the background love that he has one of the greatest uh souvenirs from The Late Show I could ever imagine he has the Joe Grossman flip book um oh wow yeah that cartoon you know the flip book where it's a cartoon of oh my God I don't know how he got that uh the the whoever's listening to this uh that was a a crisp holiday gift that Steve Young made like usually most years we would give each other kind of silly gift you know so when you're Steve Young had a custom flip book made of me just sitting there not moving so it's uh it's a very Steve Young joke it's a very good encapsulation of a Steve Young joke and it was yep it was an honor to be the inspiration for one of his uh jokes but yes that's that's I have one of those too on my bookshelf here so fantastic uh I just I love it so much um and you know what the footage of me in Dawn's apartment flipping through that is available on the episode where I forget one of our previous episodes anyway um it's it's fantastic I might even throw it out on as a quick YouTube video after this um listen Joe I you've been so gracious with your time here uh I just gotta tell you um I thought full frontal with Samantha Bee was phenomenal as well you moved on this is where you went uh right after late show did you get did you kind of get caught on there right away or uh I was in the wilderness for about six months looking for work okay thank God this new show just happened to start up and yeah they needed to fill a very small but good writer's room so I managed to get on staff there and I I was there for the full seven year run and it was a really really really great opportunity great place to you know see oh you know what I've been running for Dave for 11 years I don't know if I'm capable of doing anything else and yeah okay turns out I can okay that's good today Mercedes we want to let him in Sensibility no no okay either they they you know appreciate and respected I had that but it was never like yeah let's bring something like that this is going to be a very different show it's obviously much more uh much more aggressive much more uh uh uh confrontational you know I was thinking of taking real stances on issues uh so it was we found room for silliness within all that stuff but uh yeah it was very different and I was very lucky and happy to get to prove myself doing something different yeah a tremendous show and and like look at the resume you have you have very few things on that resume because they're all just at the top of the Heap of of entertaining and and I mean it's very few things because I don't like to leave a job you know I always say if you hire me for a show I will go down with the ship that's right I've had a letterman I did it full frontal if I can manage to stick around at night show I'll I'll be there until uh until NBC collapses I don't know whatever uh I'm I'm you'll I will have to be asked to leave is what I'm saying so you don't leave a good job no well and and I mean you've had great ones you have a great one now uh I love Fallon I love Fallon when he was on SNL like I love Conan too like I mean these are these are amazing things I think Fallon Weekend Update bits uh Fallon is so unbelievably talented uh you know and again this is what pops into my head Jimmy Fallon on The Late Show imitating Tom Brokaw and I mean I don't even wanna I I the last time he was on I think uh on panel with Dave hysterical that appearance was hysterical I know it talks about uh you know who Caitlyn Jenner is now and all that but at the time when that incident happened it's like oh my gosh this is two Titans just going back and forth uh his doing his uh his Neil Young as the Fresh Prince song I mean the the talent that Jimmy Fallon has is just tremendous and the fact that you get to you went from Letterman to The Tonight Show and I mean this is amazing I'm so happy for you Joe I can't I just found this out tonight that this is what was happening before the camera started rolling I'm so happy for you Joe congratulations man okay that's really the language isn't necessary I know I know I get ahead of myself sometimes there are children watching um let's finish off I'm gonna ask you this if there's one or two people that uh you know Dave is doing the Tom Snyder thing right now you've got a a an excellent point of view uh that is specific and and and inside if there were a couple of people you'd like to see Dave do the Tom Snyder thing with uh who would they be um yeah I you know it won't I don't know if it would ever happen probably but I really love to see him talk to some of his longtime writers like if it's Dave just talking to Mulligan and to Steve Young and you know Steve O'Donnell or God bless Romero Marco who is responsible for everything she created everything that made the show she's the mother of late night or or created everything that that allowed everything else to follow it so um I would I would love to see that I don't know if a lot of other people would but just as someone who's been there um uh take my money I'm in it's on people who'd be more recognizable uh it would be fun to see uh like a round table of of Dave Johnny Conan and Jay let's just okay let's talk about what's happened here yeah like you know just really get everything out in the open but um yeah I I I I feel the same way um this has been such a thrill for me we're gonna we're gonna call it now um I can't wait till the next time um and and thank you so so so much for this Joe and again my compliments on the background I I said it off camera uh if I could come up with the perfect Joe Grossman background you have it sir oh yeah that's right yeah the claim great that is an actual wall there so you know it doesn't say no it's not CGI no um yeah thank you man um do you have anything else that you want to say about your time uh on on the Letterman podcast here what were anything else that you want to say before we uh before we get going uh no no I think we've covered a lot of stuff but yeah again if you ever want to talk again I'm totally happy to there's you know it was a great run 11 years and and I I it's fun to you know talking to someone else helps me remember things I didn't know I remembered so so I appreciate your questions that uh bring back memories that that might not otherwise have resurfaced so uh yeah not ones that you're gonna have to uh to purge and and God damn it I waited seven years to try and get that out of my head now it's back I hope that none of it none of it I hope it's all positive they're 70 positive and thirty percent horrible see I'll tell you which is which is a good solid C minus um but also I appreciate you taking the time to talk to you know not just me but um another staffers and other people associate the show but especially the writers just because um I mean I love hearing you know Steve Young talk or Tom Rook Rector or Mulligan but also the people who I never met like I I've never met Steve O'Donnell I've never met I mean I heard your interview with a Dave Rogowski a few days ago and it's like wow that's the guy who I I know very little about I've seen us name the credits and it was just a fascinating talk with someone who I just know nothing about yeah um so I really appreciate you uh taking the time to get all these stories uh I appreciate that very much we've got lot of very cool creative ideas about moving forward I want to get a couple of you you kind of alluded to it a little bit I want to get a couple of you together writers who work together or people who work together and and do a little bit of uh uh uh reuniting and and just seeing the conversation that that comes from there as well and then the idea of having you know an O'Donnell and a Joe or a Fred Graver and a an a Tommy rupreck together or something like that I really love the idea of that so we've got a lot of cool things planned uh thank you very much for for saying that I'll do uh I'll do a quick outro and then we can say our goodbye if that's all right with you okay um that's another episode of The Lettermen podcast ladies and gentlemen this is why we do this show uh thank you very very much for supporting the way that you have already we've put zero zero into the show other than organic growth and that's what we've had so far it's coming uh Rupert and May at the hello Deli thank you very much you're our only sponsor uh we're gonna try and make this thing official if we can with pants and so we're not going to take on any of their sponsors but you two will always have thank you very much go to hellodashdeli.com for your only source of officially uh merchandise Late Show with David Letterman uh stuff also Rupert's stuff also if you're in the area please go to the hello Deli they make a hell of a sandwich and soup and and really good company um again I believe Rupert might be one of the most uh photographed people on a daily basis in New York uh this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisholm coincidentally I am Mike Chisholm uh that guy is Joe Grossman thank you and good night