Stephen Winer

all right y'all thought that I might be fibbing this is proof right now the Letterman podcast we have one sponsor one sponsor only but it is in the hello Deli thank you very much for sponsoring our show Rupert it's my honor Mike welcome once again to the Lettermen podcast as always my name is Mike Chisholm I'm excited to be here and do this I swear to God I keep telling you all I'm excited because the conversations that I have with these people is a dream come true and I mean who wouldn't be excited by a dream come true and they the dreams are taking different dimensions the squares are becoming cubes uh it's very cool because now we're getting to a point where some of our guests who came on a first time uh We've developed relationships and and even seen each other uh in person and and whatnot and and uh you know in some cases our wives have gotten together and now they're coming back on the show as friends with a completely different um mindset the origin story as it's uh as uh as we call it uh in comic book fandom has been told and now it's just let's shoot the bull a little bit and talk uh about David Letterman comedy all the things that surround it the careers of some of these people where they went what they did what they learned I love that today is one of those episodes um Steve Winer was there he's an OG late night writer he was there on day one um and uh by the way he's been on the show before that episode uh lots of people really really liked it um and and there were questions that came out of that episode uh those questions have been answered Steve and I go into that you can watch the episode to to understand that um including uh why the thumbnail uh on his uh previous episode was Dick Van Dyke and where that picture was taken even though we didn't talk about Dick Van Dyke uh which was our little kind of joke but we talk about it here in this episode among many other things including uh night one uh late night one Bill Murray uh and and the legend of Bill Murray getting the entire writing staff drunk in preparation to see what they were going to do Steve tells that story recollects it uh we've got a really cool start one of the rarest Letterman crew Jack kids uh was discussed in this episode you'll have a lot of fun uh hearing that story if you like um Arcane uh information that really doesn't have any value whatsoever but you just enjoy hearing things about what went on behind the scenes at late night back in the day we talk about um bigger things as well I just I I love Steve Weiner uh he is fantastic the wall of books behind him by the way in both the first episode and this episode same wall of books however uh not telling too many tales out of school um he had options there are other walls of books he might be one of the most well-read people I've ever met um and I just he's a he's a plethora of wisdom and information I appreciate him so much and he's a friend he and he and he and Laurie are are friends of candy and I and and uh and it's as a result of the Letterman podcast which is uh mind-blowing to me uh I'm grateful beyond measure to be able to do this I hope you're having fun uh it's a lot of fun listening to and watching the results this is our first official episode uh that we put up in the new studio or the evolving Studio we got stuff more to come we say more to come a lot on this thing I wonder where we got that from anyway I am very appreciative to um you know I I st it's good that I'm shooting this intro without Steve being here I actually uh shot another intro and then um I'm doing it again after the conversation because I just uh he is such a great guy and I just appreciate him so much um we talk about Meryl Marco in this episode anytime we contribute Merrill Marco with anybody um not not contribute anytime time we can tribute Merrell on this show um that's a that's a that's a good day's work as far as I'm concerned and um just the insights that Steve has um you know he's clearly um a master of his craft and has uh used his craft in a variety of ways we're going to talk about it right now uh this episode is as always brought to you in part by the hello Deli go to hellodashdelly.com if you want any Late Show with David Letterman merchandise or Rupert G merchandise if you're in the New York area please go to the hello Deli uh get a soup get a sandwich uh get your picture taken with Rupert in May uh just enjoy uh the experience while we have it and uh I'm just yeah thank you for uh being on this journey please like please share Please Subscribe let's get us to that next level so I'll tell you this the moment we get to that next level whatever that level is I'll never ask again I'll never ask again I'll be advertising things like contests and all that kind of crap so uh thank you very much much for supporting the show that the way that you have um I'm gonna do my very very best to keep the episodes fresh and fun uh insightful and maybe even dare I say it entertaining so here we go now uh please the Letterman podcast presents episode number what is this number 38 maybe uh something like that we've got a couple in the can too so episode 38 I believe is what this is or maybe 39 who's counting Steve Weiner returns to the Lettermen podcast enjoy embarrass me okay well I'm gonna just so you know in the intro I I edify the hell out of you so uh yeah no do you like the set yeah this is new huh yeah it's coming what's coming along we're uh so this bridge is from Late Show it's actually from Late Show is it really how did you get it um so on May 21st 2020 um many of the staff and enthusiasts of Dave uh lovingly referred to that day as D-Day dumpster day uh when the CBS crew showed up and mercilessly um just started tearing apart this legendary set and throwing it in dumpsters and um some of the crew uh went and rescued some of these things and and some friends of mine and I are are currently trying to figure out where some of the big Bridges and things like that are this one here was rescued that day and it's one that can fit in a uh you know the the studio was so big in the Ed Sullivan Theater that the bridges were huge this one here could actually fit in a normal home studio so very happy to have that that's very nice I have one request for you yes sir one request can you please for the love of God take the picture of Sarah Palin off the back wall while I'm talking I don't ask much I think that if I have to look at that woman for this next hour this is going to be a very very different conversation than it would normally be yeah I just think it it's only fair I mean really if I had a picture of Hitler over my shoulder wouldn't it change the tender of things please no just put it down put it away put it down put it away if you won't actually torch it in my presence at the least you can do is keep the hell off the set thank you can you believe I got her to endorse the Lettermen podcast oh I can actually believe it I can believe it that's one of the easier things that anyone's ever asked me to believe yes I believe it she couldn't even win her election in Alaska so yeah she's down to to uh promoting podcasts now yeah but she tried to get Dave fired I mean well is that is that and that's a reason to Keep Her On The Wall there like that I mean well that's why that's why I thought when the opportunity arose in front of me I thought it was the universe giving me an opportunity for comedy that's for darn sure uh well there's comedy I guess and there's comedy there's a different kinds well you know I think back you know it's so funny I remember when um and I'm not a political guy I don't want to get into you know the right I don't want to I don't want to divide people and all that kind of stuff but it's funny about the things that we used to make fun of um with politicians like like famously uh Johnny Carson never got a chance to make fun of Bill Clinton uh you know he he left right as that began Dave never got a chance to uh be doing what he did when Donald Trump was was President you know but Dave did have George W bush and I mean they had those legendary segment Great Moments in presidential speeches and it was just George just being George and that's all they did was put a couple little clever edits around it and just let him be him boy is it a different time now when it comes to you know instead of yeah Bush you know tripping or falling into a door or trying to open a door and not opening you know and this is the recipe for comedy uh making poking fun at our leaders it's a different animal Now isn't it it is and I mean I I think there should have been a little more of that kind of Comedy even when when George Bush was was president but you know everybody to her own taste and I you know you want to keep the audience large I guess I mean Colbert's done very well talk you know with with the people who feel the way he does and that's been a nice enough large enough audience to keep him rolling so and I think it's rolling number one which is crazy um I don't know is that crazy considering the competition I don't know it seems it seems logical to me I mean I I don't I haven't really seen Kimmel at all so I don't wanna I don't want to say anything about him I can do without Jimmy Fallon generally well it's it's a it's a bit of a game show thing hey you know actually I wanted to talk about Fallon a little bit here I have this sometimes um uh uh in the in in the in the in the wrestling business uh people talk about fantasy booking I would put this person or the boxing business or whatever I would love dream matchups um I do that with this is just gives you a little bit of insight as to the the the the the the the freak that I am I do talk show uh fantasy booking I always think about ideas that I would love to see in these shows there's there's a Fallon idea that I have we recently just had Joe Grossman on um phenomenal guy I love him so much he was a writer for Late Show for a long time now he's writing for Fallon and it was funny after we after we uh after we converse I sent him an email um going hey wait a second do I have like do I have a pitch line for The Tonight Show right now could I actually every once in a while I'll send you ideas uh to pitch because I've always had this piece of fantasy booking and it has to do with actually something that I believe started while you were at late night Were You There When elevator races started yeah I think yeah I was I think so yeah I think I didn't know they did them more often I guess I do remember elevator races yeah the Genesis probably is what you remember well I remember I guess the first one I didn't know there was there was actually more than one um my my idea is this um and this is something I want to talk to you about Steve for sure as well this is going to segue into um how how you really at the end of the day didn't watch a ton of Dave especially during the late night years after you left uh and and I and I and I like that because you've got a fresh perspective in many many ways but my idea anyway here's my fantasy talk show booking it's that um later on in in the late show or early in the Late Show run Dave would periodically call up Johnny Carson for various reasons this is after Johnny retired and one of the things that he called Johnny for was he asked him if they could use stump the band moving forward in uh in in late show as that moved forward and it was a neat conversation it was a you know the Young The Young Lion talking to the old Legend um you know and and it was it was a neat thing and then we got to see that move on my idea uh was the idea that Jimmy Fallon would call up David Letterman and say hey um you know can we use elevator races and then have him and Seth do some sort of Comedy piece that would go from one show to the other and uh it would capture a little bit of that magic that you guys had at 30 Rock that was one of the things that I think was was so special about um your shows at 30 Rock was that you would you would involve the rest of the broadcast building and the family that was in there I thought that was a very inventive thing was that something so anyways that's my little piece of uh fantasy talk show booking but was that something that was there from the get-go that you guys were gonna kind of cause trouble to the studios around you and all that I I don't think anybody made a conscious choice I think is something that just evolved I can't even remember whose idea elevator risk was probably Merrell's but I'm not I genuinely don't know so if anybody does and it was somebody else I apologize uh no I don't think it was specifically that I think it was just trying to mess with the format we start messing I mean the first the first episode has a behind starts with that behind the scenes tour right so we were showing and we were showing behind what was going on and that I think was definitely a marital idea I think we all contributed jokes to it but then but I think that was Maryland Maryland Dave's idea um and so I think it was right from the beginning was the idea of messing with the idea of the show I think they did some of that on the morning show too yeah so I think that you know it was just you know a lot of this comes from Steve Allen and you know Steve Allen was all over that kind of thing but you know the the uh doings people owns putting camera out on the streets and you know making fun of people on the street or doing stuff about in the in this studio going out into the into the with the audience and doing stuff like that uh in fact a number of his bits it's interesting you said that they asked permission you stumped the band stump the band I think it was a Carson invention but a lot of Carson sketches were actually I completely say lifted from Steve Allen sure uh yeah I mean the the the the the soap opera bit where he pans around the audience and does that to the College of wetness on the Carson show that came from there the Tea Time movie thing was was away was was definitely Steve Allen bit uh there are others 200 Johnson he stole Aunt blaby was a outright steal from Maude frickett from John frickett from Jonathan Winters so Carson was was lifted a lot of material so it's interesting that other people were a little more polite than he he may have been when when doing his show there's a couple things with that now number one Johnny is uh uh carrying the mantle of the Tonight Show so you wonder at that point there is it okay is this a franchise uh you know Legacy piece that we could just continue on and evolve and change things around or is it uh you know and this is I want to talk to you about the commentator mentality because this is awesome I can tell you something specific to that because I actually asked Steve Allen that very question when he was on the show so because he was he we wrote a sketch for him that got unfortunately ran too long got cut in half so it doesn't make any sense on the air right but uh but but the bit the original idea was funny and you know we got to spend the better part of the afternoon with Steve Allen and we're both huge Steve Allen fan so I asked him I said look I started listing all these things and there are a couple of others I I didn't mention to you but there were Bunch that they took from him yeah and and he said um you know that that uh first thing he was throwing people I I said does it tick you off and he said well you know Johnny's a very different comedian he's got his own style and he's got his own thing but yeah it does tick me off so that that's the answer wow he was not he was not happy about that uh he he said he's absolutely perfectly fine with David Letterman doing bits of his because he said they've always credited so he said you know he really likes that he really liked David he really admired David and he said he had no problem when you know when when Dave did something that he might done before because he always mentioned it uh you know you know let me tell you this um one of my favorite Don Giller compilations and it's it's literally comfort food for me like if I'm if I'm home sick on the couch or something and I want to put some comfort food on I put on his compilation of Dave interviewing talk show hosts over the years because it's like seven parts and each part's like an hour and a bit like it's expansive um and and I would say a complete archive um but I love the beginning for a couple reasons whenever he had guys like Alan or Parr or some of these other uh folks Merv for that matter uh some of these people on um and Dave was such a freshman interviewer you know and I mean we've talked at length about on this show about uh Dave's Evolution as an interviewer from from from literally freshmen all the way up to you know PhD we've watched it in front of us over the three decades but the reverence this kid would like you would see literally see Dave getting nervous in in front of these people the the you know you talk about the respect the reverence he had for these people uh who came before him of course Johnny Carson being you know uh the top of the heat but but every single other one um you know that was that was evident even though you guys were changing the format the respect you guys all seemed to have you guys and gals all seem to have for the ones who came before uh seems to be Paramount yeah well I think I think you know again we weren't sitting here thinking doing something in this style or that style we're just trying to get the stuff in but certainly you know I mean I I think there was that always that Steve Allen connection and what we were doing too this had a sense of that kind of thing but you know we then we moved off into our own Direction but uh I think part of the reverence is I always suspected was certainly at that time when as you said he was just a novice interviewer uh is how you know with jackpot was the most com was I mean always looked nervous I was part of the pit but he was still a very comfortable dude you know having the conversation probably more than Dave was at that time so I think he aspired to that probably too and I think he eventually got there uh so certainly that you know and he also I think I I think and you know I'm just playing the mind reader which is which said you're probably as good as I am but I think they've had a real reference reference for people that are just broadcasters but we used to call Classic broadcasters so it didn't even have to talk people did what he did yeah you know he also like Tom Snyder very much you know he liked Keith olberman he liked people who have that kind of comfort with the you know with the camera who can really do that kind of thing and I think those are the people he really respected those you know and certain comedians but I think actors not as much on some level I always got that feeling he didn't have that kind of connection to actors when he was interviewing them he could do it and enjoy it but I don't know I I wondered if you ever asked me do you have a favorite actor I'm not sure he would have I wonder what his answer would have been or if he would have had one I don't think I don't know if anybody ever did that but when you start talking about people in television he had a long list uh without a doubt um I love that we kind of moved over here because there was leftovers from the previous time that you were on this show and and this is the first time that we've done this since uh uh you know since becoming friendly since since candy and I came over and had a beautiful beautiful brunch um you know it's great I'm feeling this kinship with you and it's it's it's it's it's a lovely lovely thing but then there's always that okay but what happens when the wives get together and you and I lucked out in the sense that our wives connected beautifully and it's like all right right on Steve and I can be friends now we we actually can have that that level um well I don't think there's that many of the wives of my friends who are who were like miserable about the prospect I mean you know well anybody by the way and not be friends with your wife Lori is unbelievable what what a what a what an amazing woman she's listening at the door so uh if she does with faint altogether I would expect nothing less and and hope for nothing less uh we the regard we have for both of you is so high one of the things that I wanted to talk about the last time we talked about it at breakfast a little bit and you told me some some beautiful stories I this is the the generational part of this that you and I are just talking about these Reverend Steve Allen these Giants who were broadcasters but comedic broadcasters right from the from the get-go and I think that uh many times um when I when I say what I'm about to say people kind of look at me funny but at the end of the day there were broadcasters who had a comedic slant right from the invention of Television uh I mean you know it's not a new thing but Gen X is a little bit different I love talking about this generational stuff with you uh and I've got some questions today about that um but but I this is the statement I've used before um and you have a little bit of a specific insight to this David Letterman is my Walter Cronkite and and so um you know he just he just is the the guy that I kind of looked to and trusted you know um Walter Cronkite was one of those trusted newsmen but but for Gen X we had this this is where I think that the that the um maybe the apathy kind of started you know the kids are the Baby Boomers who who who did so much to change so many things and and the next generation is just going to be apathetic about the previous one that's just we're seeing it now with Millennials how they view us um you lived across the street from the guy I did we did for many years for decades you know yeah that's many years uh yeah I mean actually I actually met him a couple of times because my father knew him through my father was uh worker and he was a playwright and writer but he also was from uh for many years a deputy executive director the writers bill which he'd helped and found and he used to ask you know what Walter to do the the the the uh annual Awards dinners so he knew him a little bit and he was a Cronkite was just a really really nice band I mean he was exactly who you would sort of hope he would be I can't say I had a new or anything but I met him a number of times he couldn't have been nicer each time that I met him so it was nice to have you know somebody who is like really was like that he was the guy he seemed to be the guy you saw on television oh I love that I like that yeah that's that's such a beautiful thing uh to say that about somebody who has that you know the what you see is what you get um idea and that's what you would hope you know uh when I hear some of these stories about uh somebody who who has a a super high following or is in a really top position and then you hear about their behavior behind the scenes and I mean boy is that ever uh a a focal point of our culture these days a reckoning is happening with with people who behave badly and and and and what can happen but there's it's just it's a little bit of disappointment that comes in it's kind of like hearing that your favorite baseball player is a dick you know and and uh but aren't they all well I don't know I mean I don't know I'm not in my experience I don't know and whenever I hear a story about a baseball player it's usually something unpleasant so I'm just hoping that there's some nice ones out there too oh heavens there's uh yes uh the industry of sport has many inspirational uh thing lessons as well but it's the ones that aren't that I think um you know make them remember and they focus on Walter's one of those guys where uh you know you just you hope what you see is what you get with him that that actually reminds me of one of my favorite lines in a movie that a movie that hardly anybody saw and I'm not a sports person I don't know if I don't follow this up but Ron Shelton who you have most people know from the um the famous Kevin Costner the baseball picture the natural thank you no no no that's oh Field of Dreams sorry Field of Dreams no not that either it's it's the you did a lot of things yes thank you Ron Shelton wrote and director Kevin Costner baseball movies I think I think I think there's so many there uh no there was another one that Sam Ramey directed at called For the Love of the Game there's just he just allowed did a lot of videos For the Love of the Game oh my God right yeah in any case there he did Ron tell the picture called Cobb about Ty Cobb it was one of the most unpleasant people yeah in the business you know ever and there's a great line in that that I that I remember many times in my business where somebody uh that um well I'm not gonna remember anybody's name today but uh the the actor who played the journalist who was also a comedian uh if you're if you're a bet members somebody will remember this any case he's talking to Lolita davidovich and you know at a bar after you know following Cobb Brown all the time and she says why do you put up with it and he says you see I think he's a genius and she says genius is overrated and I've always remembered that line uh there you know in some cases people gotta get a pass because they're really really great at something and I think that now finally I think that has been a tradition not just in sports in Show Business in a lot of things sure and I think maybe there's a there's a reckoning across the board for some of the people who are who are who might be good at something but are also you know basically and I I don't think that's a bad thing I think it doesn't take away from what they did but maybe that should not be an excuse but this is the conversation I wanted to get into and I I it's beautifully evolving right over that way um I think you're right I think that uh we're seeing that and that theory tested that we're seeing people who are actually right now at the time of this recording we're seeing people who have this Larger than Life um place or at least a self-perceived larger than life plays and they're testing what they can say I mean at the time of this recording the Kanye stuff has just happened well right the Kanye isn't it funny how I could say that and if this was 10 years ago people would say oh yeah that Kanye stuff and now there's always some new stuff but there's always some new stuff current Kanye stuff current Elon Musk stuff you've got these Larger than Life characters that are uh testing the boundaries of what can be said and cannot be said and are they stretching things and are they evolving Free Speech uh versus you know shouting fire here in a crowded theater you know I I just it's a fascinating time yeah it's it's the art versus the artist the conundrum and I think that you know there are people who who everybody's got a different line of what they can tolerate and and then still enjoy that performer it in my case for example a lot of the performers I mean someone like like Bill Cosby who you know I grew up a lot of people in the 80s they grew up in a sitcom but I grew up on a stand-up which was I think he was one of the greatest stand-ups who ever lived oh Bill Cosby himself is one of the greatest comedy albums I've ever I've ever yeah but all all of his com you know his albums from the 60s and you know I remember his stand-up you know I saw him at you know in several times live to stand up he's phenomenal yeah I I I I knew I mean in the business people knew he was not liked I mean what they knew he was a womanizer they knew he was just not a pleasant person I used to hear stories backstage about how Uncle you know just unpleasant it was as a person yep I didn't hear that no one heard the serial rapist story to the best of my knowledge right and I find it now hard to go back and look it's bizarre I mean I actually it's still interesting because I watched I don't know if you saw this documentary series like uh we need to talk about Cosby which was which was done which was really well done and I haven't yet where where are you at it's on Hulu I think but I I believe it's uh W camo Bell I think then and it's it's really really good uh because they really and first of all they also discussed over the period the episodes how important he was in each decade for different reasons important in the 60s for stand up important in the 70s because of the kids show stuff yeah in the 80s for the sitcom all that so you have to discuss how important he was before you discuss what was going on at the same time it's what he has and and I think that really put it puts it into the context but the same time I don't think I could really watch him again but they ran clips from some of the stand up and I was laughing again so it's like you you know you it's it's impossible not to because it was that good um but there were people that you know I mean Jerry Lou I was huge and still am a huge Jerry Lewis fan yeah I had a really nice meeting with him backstage at led him he couldn't have been nicer but I know people personally who had horrible experiences with them and there was an article about hidden Vanity Fair more recently with telling some stories that you know I didn't know but we're not that surprising I can't not I can't stop laughing at Jerry Lewis At this point in my life but I would understand people who could not make that jump okay um you know there's a lot of that and it it becomes and I keep saying to people because I I have no concerned about about history of Classic Hollywood and classic broadcasting as well as if if we start going backwards in time yes there's not going to be anybody left for you so you're gonna you're gonna or maybe a handful You Know Jack Benny everybody was was the nicest man in the world there were a handful of people who are really really nice yeah but once you start going through the history of Show Business not just comedy but acting in Hollywood and whatever and looking at it with today's glass right yeah yeah it's gonna be hard to look at a lot of these people so I don't I don't fault people who still would like who might still like a given performer that I could maybe not be able to connect uh but I because I grew up with all of these performers most of whom were probably not very nice people um I I think I can I make that Detachment in my head to at least to varying degrees but I guess once you get up to serial rapes it's harder well okay so yes that's just it now now I mean we're talking about an extreme example from an extreme giant like culture changing like you think about uh uh somebody for for an African-American uh uh I mean to become to get to the place that he did and what he did for uh you know I remember uh an episode of The Cosby Show that I watched and and as a kid and this is it to my to my memory the first time I ever saw the Martin Luther King I Have a Dream speech and uh and it was a very simple Scene It was the very end of an episode um I don't know if it was around the time of when at that point the holiday wasn't there but it might have been Martin Luther King's birthday I'm not sure why it aired when it aired but basically an episode of The Cosby Show happened it was a typical episode and at the end they came out of the kitchen I think it was Rudy who was sitting in front of the TV just watching the I Have a Dream speech and I believe that's the first time I ever saw that speech as a child um on The Cosby Show and you look at what Bill Cosby did like you said I'm just all I'm doing is accentuating your point Steve is is the idea of talking about the great stuff before we move into that so these are extreme examples but the men's mental Wellness podcast that I host um you know I don't think when we were gen xers uh you know Nirvana listening flannel wearing coffee drinking uh apathetic uh you know generation I don't think that we had in our minds the idea that as we push the envelope in the specific ways that we did the problem that we were going to have when we were in our 40s and 50s is that we were going to take uh our lives the memory of our lives at that time where we were just stumbling along we were just trying to figure things out we were trying to just you know and then we would be judged on the actions or the the behaviors of the culture I was raised on porkies I mean and in locker rooms that were very different than locker rooms now you know and and I I don't think any of us could foresee um you know as we were thinking oh it's it's safe to be gay you know that the Gen X that's the badge of honor that that we kind of wear um you know and and it's safe to come out and all of that kind of stuff we challenged a lot of things I don't think we could have predicted that this was going to be one of the problems that we had with the generation that followed um and in comedy writing specifically uh you and I talked about this at breakfast and and I again in the intro I edified that like I say I edify the heck out of you you are a professor we talked about how Steve's doing uh uh you know uh a comedy writers class at NYU you are you are a Professor Steve you you just are uh you you could be doing this and I love the discussion we had about comedy writing in today's day and age because I said the same thing that many of The Cutting Edge Comics right now say who have no problem testing the boundaries if it's funny it's okay and and I said that at the table and we got into a really nice discussion about that because you know the idea of actually having responsibility okay it may be funny but are you being responsible in saying these things you know I I'm I I'm seeing I think I'm different from a lot of the people I know my age or who are in in this business because that the whole thing that you know I keep saying I see so many people that I know not a lot of them fortunately but the things you know with this well woke people you can't be funny and no one can be there's no nothing's funny anymore well actually that's bull yeah and it really infuriates me when I hear people who actually should know better talk about them particularly people who were politically otherwise and would be in my camp and I think that that I hear that and it really annoys me because what they're really saying is they can't be funny anymore with the material that they did when they were starting out maybe 30 years ago or 40 years ago or 20 or even 20 years ago and the fact of the matter is comedy always changes it always did I'm sure if I went through the letter if you and I went through the Letterman archives together from 82 there's jokes we wouldn't do anymore absolutely in the same token that was 40 years ago 40 years before the Letterman show was the middle of World War II and they were doing jokes about Germans and Japanese people that we could wouldn't do in 1982.

against change yes and I really really annoy and also when they say nothing's funny there's so much comedy out there right now that's funny that that just it's like what are you talking about and then none of these people who the young people who are doing comedy Now seem to have terrible trouble getting I mean some do because they particularly push the boundaries that's their choice sure that's a choice that's a choice but there are plenty of people who who can who can write really good and create or perform really good comedy that doesn't that isn't necessarily raises her sexist or homophobic or whatever there's a lot of topics that the world strike comedy about or perform comedy about you don't have to do the same jokes you did before and you know I always said I said you know if your old joke doesn't write doesn't work write a new one that is literally the definition of the job okay okay I mean I don't I don't I don't get it you know and I know that there are people who say well that you're just you're doing so you know you can say this because you're not working the business anymore well is that okay if you want to say that fine but if I were working in the business I would hope I would be writing you know whatever anybody who writes for any particular project fits their what they do to that project you don't write the same for David Letterman as you do writing for the Disney Channel yeah right yeah and it's a different just because it's a different show it's a different job so you you learn to adapt to what you're doing and ideally there's a point where what they're doing what you do that was something that's you meshes so that I can look at something on a show that I worked on and say yeah that represents something that that's of me but it fits into this context Meryl said something to me once that I always remembered because it was a really nice thing but she was I think she was right and I think it was her doing she said what she loved about the show was there were so about the writers in the shows there's so many different styles of Comedy writing on the show but they all fit together yep they all work together you know and I think I think that that was something that I don't know if he was particularly and David were particularly looking for that but that's certainly when I was there that's what we got that's what we had our style was different from from you know Tom and Max's style it was different from Andy's style you know whatever it was it was different but it was still right for Dave Merrell fascinates me uh Steve he she just uh because she is in in my you know and not just my God I mean who am I uh she is the mother of late night you know and and when you think about that uh and not just the show late night I'm talking the genre I'm talking you know she brought the sensibility of of of of of a mother in in so many respects you can say that uh on on yeah but I don't see that but I'll take your I mean in the sense that that I mean I think marriage is a genius but the last thing I would cook user being is maternal and I don't I I don't think the show reflects that I think what it does reflect is a really specific and really original style of Comedy that she has that was hers and that that mesh so so well with Davis at the beginning but but Meryl continues to write great material on her own that has nothing to do with David because that that style was her and I think that they've meshed perfectly and that that the show to me was always this great combination nation of David and Meryl and then ultimately us have you know down the line but those two were the are the keystones of what made the show what it was the Alchemy of the two the Alchemy their their Alchemy together was was specifically what the show was and the rest of us you know fit in where we could so I was going to go down the path of of the fact that you know the mother the protective role how she protected the rest of the staff from the network she did do that she did do that yes that's true I would absolutely give her credit for that but her father Prince like and and maybe it is just that Alchemy I think about dog poetry and and some of these things that just to me a man doesn't come up with some of the stuff and and from the angle that she did but but then take when you look at her background yeah she wasn't raised uh and bred to be this Maverick uh leader she was an art she was she was an artist you know her background was an artist so so part of it wasn't just the genius and the intelligence that she brought to the table but it was also the fresh perspective coming from out of nowhere right um and and looking at this um you know she'd never run a show before and then and then you know on the on the morning yeah famously it's like okay well it's here you go you know no one's no one's driving the stage coach here you go right right you know and and that part of it as well um bring that fresh perspective in is is a huge part of it as well I I uh you know I I have nothing but I love when you guys when the old school guys come on here and sing Merrell's Praises we haven't had her on the show yet I want to very very badly um obviously uh the the level of respect I have for her is through the roof and and and what I love and that's me as a viewer me as a as a guy who really appreciates this but what I even appreciate more this kind of goes back to the Cronkite thing is how much the war horses like you uh you know and and everyone else who worked for her the the level of respect that they have for her is uh it's it's it's gigantic it's so yeah it would not have been the same show I mean it was not even close um which is not not at all taking anything away from David at all no but I mean you know it was a case of taking David's sensibility and finding a way to make that work as a television show yes and you know that was that where they combined so well that uh they both they both knew what they wanted to do and they all each had their own individual way of of achieving it and that it just it just worked you know I mean you know nobody really wrote better for Dave than Merrell did and uh and by the same token things that you know that I see Dave's things that make me think of Merrell back going the other way direction that I mean they just the fact it was just that that connection um you know it it and it was able to you know I'm not taking away the other people who worked on the show you know Merrell was only there as head writer for a short time really by the comparison with everything else and the show changed from the other people who worked there it says change when Steve O'Donnell was there was head writer had changed you know all along the way yeah um but without that first grounding you know who knows I I I would definitely agree with that um it's very cool that you have that perspective it's just very so very few of us do because Dave is kind of the you know what we see with Davis he's the Frankenstein of all of these other writers you know I've talked to so many writers there's a danger there too and I want to stop you because please and I find myself doing this sometimes too when I'm raving about Merrell which is it sounds almost to make Dave sound like a puppet of some sort uh or like you know and that is absolutely not the case yes I mean every word that came out of Dave's mouth was something Dave either why would something spied that he he that was that he liked or his own yeah and by the way one of the connections between he between David and Steve Allen is that they were the two greatest improvisers I ever saw in my life and I never saw anybody and there was a frustration sometimes on the show a minor frustration but we could never write jokes as funny as David could come up with ad living on the fly yes on the fly yeah you sit back and say you know wow and that was that was continuous that was always there uh so he didn't you know it felt it's fun to write for him because he worked great you know it was because of that but then you would the things we I loved best watching the show were just the things where Dave was winging it when he was just out you know we when he's talking to members of the audience or talking this or you know whatever happened and that's another thing David loved when things went wrong in the show because then he could you know give him more leeway to Adeline without a doubt I mean and I I he was so brilliant at that still is you know I mean he's just he's just that fast he had that kind of brain that could work that way so I think the com the composite is Meryl is a writer and Dave as a writer thinker at the same you know um sometimes they people would say you know because they've always had a writing credit on the show and said well was that justified well yeah because even if he did and he did write occasional bits for the show but he didn't do it that often but if if 40 to 50 of the last on a given show were came came out of Dave's mouth had living that's writing at living's writing absolutely oh of course it is you know I mean uh I I don't know if you were what if you would I know you you would come and kind of kind of come in and out you're aware of a lot of these things that happened after the fact but I think about when Rod Blagojevich came on and uh you know he comes on and sits down and this is before you know this is just as things are he's right in the headlines you know and and he comes and sits down and he looks at Dave and goes oh boy I've been I've wanted to be on this show in the worst way and Dave without even missing a beat while you're sure you're sure as hell here on the in the you know in the worst way he said it like so fast and it was yeah that's yes absolutely that writing on the Fly Like that's Dave's that's his calling card is is these ad-libs and and I think um I don't know if it was yours go ahead as I said one of the most fun moments for me on this show because it didn't happen often but but once Merrell came and asked everybody because they were doing a thing with Ron Popeil you probably don't remember who he was he was guided to sell this crap that they would sell in the middle of the night you know really cheesy products that they would sell uh commercials and he invented earlier incarnation of the ShamWow guy yeah but he did like a whole bunch of products and they're like dozens of them and so he was on the show and he was going to present some of those show some of those things and Meryl said if you have any ideas for ad-libs for this you know you know can you toss them in and I I we we all we actually he picked one from me and one from Carl's he didn't get to use Carl he actually apologized to Carl later for not not getting to it because it was a great line the one that I wrote he had a thing called Mr dentist that he was selling which was a box of tools you know that you could perform Dentistry on yourself and the line I gave today was I understand you had a bit of legal trouble with your Mr brain surgeon and um and they said it as if and it sounded like he was making it up he actually was reaching for another one of these products when he said it so it sounded like I wrote A Day Mad Lib that's you know that that's about as good as can get uh because that's the only fantastic the only time that ever happened that I could recall hey yeah that's a good one and and the fact that you get one you know that's I got one I got one yeah and it sounded like him which is make which is the ideal I mean it sounded like he made it up which is which is what you really wanted to be in that context you know whenever you're writing for any given comedian you really wanted to sound like his voice and and that's the first thing you learned is to adjust and I remember our first couple of days working with Robert Klein and you know I knew Robert Klein I saw his first Carson appearance I was a fan of his for a decade before I worked for him more than a decade and yet we were doing remote pieces the first thing we did for with Robert was remote pieces for NBC bloopers impractical jokes show it was the robber on the streets in New York and without even being aware of it we started writing lines that were a little davish and Robert said and he sort of caught us immediately said you know that's that's a dateline and and the and we never it never happened again you know then we started adjusting our material you don't you don't remember the the context or you don't remember the joke do you know okay not at all fantastic probably I think it was probably an insult I think it was like an insult and you know Robert doesn't do those he doesn't do insults yeah and uh you know I should have been the first one to realize that maybe haven't been a fan of this for that long but it did you know to our credit we shifted fast and then we never had that note from Robert again did uh I mean and I don't want to tell Tales out of school with this or anything like that but uh did did Robert have a does Robert have a regard for Dave is there a is there a thing there I think I would imagine the mutual response is formidable they did I know Dave did for Robert yeah you know absolutely and yeah I think I think that that Robert did I think you know Robert's context he doesn't really talk about comedians of his of that his own time very much person he loved the same people that I loved which is the older comedians you know he loved you know he loves he adores Phil Silvers the Bilco show is one of his favorites he loves the Marx Brothers and Buster Keaton and Laurel and Hardy and you go to his house he's got posters of these you know original posts Marx brothers that stuff and so we connected very quickly on that score and you know the the uh I think it was his birth the first birthday that I was working with him I got we I we got him a copy of the new at that time was a new book on Stan Laurel and it's that I it's still on the Shelf When I visit his house I can still find it on the show um and uh so so we connected very quickly that way and then that he adores those people and you see a lot of that too like every now and then you hear Robert do a WC Fields take reaction or he'll do a bit of Phil Silvers he used to call when we were working for him he would go hell yeah foreign so that was I but I think I think you respected these respects Dave very much yeah um you know I love I love this Legacy of of influencers versus influences and I mean influencer has taken a completely different turn when you look at that term now but um you know well replying to Jerry Seinfeld yeah and it makes me crazy now that they're and I hate that it's happening but that too many people I'm running into who don't know who he is yeah and you know if you know who Seinfeld is and you don't know who Robert Klein is Jerry Seinfeld will be the first person to say you ought to know Robert Klein is because he besides Robert is one of his principles if not his definitive influence Robert was one of the first great comedians to stand ups to do uh what we call Now call observational humor it wasn't a one-line gags with my mother so mother-in-law so whatever it was material about life about daily life about things that you saw things that you did and he was so it wasn't still is you know if you see him form now he's still the best at that uh and and he's just such a great Mark for the I mean I remember hearing I think I told the story but I think it was off camera uh that I saw a show that when Jay Leno had Billy Crystal on in the on Jay's show and they were both talking about you know how much influence Robert Klein was and and and Chris and I think it was Jay said yeah in my room in my you know when I when I was getting started I had a giant poster of the child the 50s record was on my wall that was the guy I had on my wall yeah and you know you just see Robert was so big and um I I really wish people would reinvestigate I mean you can get a box set of his HBO special he was the first comedian to do an HBO special the very first uh and there is a box set of DVDs of his HBO specials all of them and I highly recommend them to anybody who cares about comedy at all there's not a ton of Robert stuff on on YouTube because I think Robert's protected it very carefully yeah but go buy it I mean the records this records are available on CD or you could you know be able to download they're probably on on Spotify or um listen to the records buy them see the DVDs and they're just as funny now as they ever were because you know he's talking about the daily things you know daily things of life I quoted him the other day because I mean I was I I had a very entertaining weekend I tripped going to the theater coming out of a train station and I'm gonna have to see a favor yes it's this finger which as you know is very I told the doctor I said you know this is very important in New York City discords you can't live without this figure you have to fix this um so but I you know they they you know you almost expected me there Steve thank you it's good for daytime Danny Thomas another one no one knows is good for us too uh but I was in there they were trying to decide what painkillers and they said you know so what's with your pain level and I said well you know it's like up here it says so I guess we were going to do just do a list of companies but how I think morphine's good and I said you know I went like that I said and I said Robert Klein's line which was from which is and I always identify it um he has a bit about being bitten by a squirrel and having to go to the hospital okay and and in the bed he talks about getting morphine for the pain and he's he says uh the thing about morphine is you still feel the pain you just don't give a damn uh so I quoted that to these people and you know they they laughed and you know still funny you said it in his voice and I could hear it in his voice which is I sort of did I I modified his voice a little bit because since I didn't think they knew who he was I didn't think doing impression of was going to help uh but I'd help a lot but I did I did credit him as as a great comedian that I know so yeah just shout out to the to our first episode with uh with Steve go back and watch it uh because he talks about uh another story where he actually uh did Robert in front of him in his voice and and anyway that's in our first episode with Steve so you can go back and listen to that um oh speaking of which I uh I have a couple little uh cleanup items that I I have to do from people who uh ask questions from the first episode the first one's a very simple one um and then the second one is like the second one's probably simple but we could go we could go deep with it if we wanted to uh because he's in the news but the first one's very simple the thumbnail picture oh by the way I want to show you before we finish here I want to show you uh uh the the picture uh again I asked permission to use for the thumbnail for for this episode I'm gonna show it in the camera here make sure that you're okay with it but the first uh episode the picture of you was you and Dick Van Dyke and uh and we didn't talk about them at all in the episode code and more than like a handful of people they said hey you got this picture of Steve and Dick and you didn't even talk about him so let's uh let's let's more than half it was usually is my basic fan group you know it's like less less than a a soiree more than a handful you know it's somewhere in there um yeah it was like this was when I was growing up I guess I did say last I think last time I loved all comedians of the older comedians the Contemporary comedians everybody I just loved everybody and I I remember my father and I watching our first Dick Van Dyke Show episode together was I remember the episode of second season episode uh about the the time it's a flashback by Rob not being able to get wet married get things kept going wrong and it's a fantastic episode and and it reminded me even as a kid of kind of a Laurel and Hardy kind of episode very physical and I fell in love with Van Dyke immediately you know and I later found out of course he was he adored a newsstand Laurel but and knew all these guys but he loved all that kind of Comedy but from that moment you know he was one of my absolute favorite people and one of the things I always wanted to do in the business was well you know I used to do I mean obviously I was not going to be able to write for the Dick Van Dyke Show because I was too young yes uh I was you know I was 10 or whatever yeah um but and but I said you know I wanna I would love to write for this guy someday and you know I'm the first spec script I ever wrote when we were still I was still in college was for the new Dick Van Dyke Show that that's the very first car that Carl I wrote that was our very first spec Sprint and um and you know you get to a certain age and you realize certain dreams are not going to happen you set them aside yeah you know you get to your mid-30s and you know you're not gonna you're not gonna work with the Beatles you're not going to do it as whatever uh and so I said well it was a nice dream but I didn't expect it to happen yeah and then reaching to the choir with that by the way of what playing with the Beatles oh just or just having a dream yeah never I mean never done a million years that I expected yeah it's not too late for you because you're you know you're not much older than I was when this happened to me I think um so and it's I'll do them to my then partner Hillary Rollins I was riding with and Hillary had worked at Nick at night and uh before she came to the Disney show okay yeah totally and and they they called her and they said we you know they've been using Dick Van Dyke as they they called him the chair the uh Nick Knight's chairman uh and so man they were doing he did commercials for them and they they wanted to do an evening where he would be introducing his five favorite episodes of the show and they asked Hillary to write it and Hillary called me one day and said listen I've got this offer from from Nick at night and uh I don't know if you I'd like to work if you want to it's it's commercials they said well I don't know uh commercials I don't know at this point in our career is it something we should be doing since there were Dick Van Dyke so what time do you want me there yeah and it turned out more to be more of a show than it was really supposed to be just commercial spots but but it essentially became a show yeah and you know we were gotten this this dream job of writing comedy for Dick Van Dyke and uh you know I still I have such a vivid memory of all these things connected with the show I remember you know we were gathering from a group meeting in in uh in the offices of Nick and Knight in the with the executives and everybody else and they got Dick Van Dyke on the phone and and you know they had the speakerphone on and they said and uh and you're a jaded comedy writer by this time like you've known I was yeah I was 10 again and literally I mean I mean they they said and these are the writers uh this is Steve and Laurie and it index that voice which you guys is so distinctive he says hi Steve hi Lauren I literally turned to Taylor and went like this yeah like that because it was it was so stunning um to me but we we tried to write you know we actually did we got a couple of people who had worked on the show before took on the thing we supposed to have car rider unfortunately his his wife took ill around that time and we he had to drop out but we got Larry Matthews who played Richie on the show we got uh Frank Adama who had been his dresser but he used to work and do spots with him he was always on that show if he recognize the tall lanky guy he would know him in a second uh and a second dream this is a two-quarter dream because one of the episodes Catholic Kathleen Freeman and now Kathleen Freeman is one of the great comic actresses of all time you know her from Jerry Lewis movies she was the the vocal coach and Singing in the Rain you know around oh my gosh yeah he was he was one of the greatest and she was in one of these so I I said we've got to get her on the show too so we got Kathleen Freeman on the show that's a whole other story of of fandom but we got all those people who put this thing together and you know it was a dream come true we came out to California uh they the the Nick and I people were wonderful and they you know they they put us up and they bought us out to work on this thing we were there and I just I followed around like a puppy dog for for all the time we're doing the same he was so nice and so generous with his time and so easy to you know you know he could have easily and I said to him one point listen if I get on your nerves please I don't want to be that person just send me away it couldn't have been nicer uh and you know I said I don't I said there was the the picture that you saw that you used came from a few years before that on the Mickey Mouse Club uh when they opened up the the uh the Disney MGM Studios they were getting Footprints famous footprints for their their Grandma's Chinese and Dick Van Dyke was one of them yep so all the writers all the writers on the on the mouse upper fans so we ran out to see if you know to see this happen then we asked as a group if we could take a picture with him so we all gather around Dick Van Dyke and um we're we're standing and it's taking a while to set up the camera you know starting to feel uncomfortable because you don't want to make them stand there for so long and I actually looked at him and he happened to to turn and look at me that moment I couldn't think of anything else to do so I went like that and he did he did like that back to me and I said well I stand with Dick Van Dyke I can retire from Show Business yep so the the first day that I was working when we first introduced him I told him that story and he said you know I said well you know the first time I met Stan Laurel see I know how it's really sweet for you to say that about how much you know and he said the first day I met Stan Laurel I came up you know and by the time he was very famous dick was very famous and he was invited to Stan's he had a little apartment in Venice California and he he he got out of the elevator and there's there was a hallway turning saw this hallway and the door opened and Stan went down and says had that Dickie and and they said I could have retired them too so you know it's so that's awesome I don't know that we connected on that but again he couldn't have been so and I said and they always said I asked nothing with you for the rest of this thing except before we leave I would love to have a two stands picture with you you know it says if we can do a two-stance picture and and we got it and of course his stand was much better than mine in the picture uh but I think that's only fair uh so so that's what that picture was about but it was such an interesting and we're calling back by the way uh earlier in the episode when we talked about the idea of these people that you look up to and then when you meet them same deal you've been very blessed and that you have a couple of those experiences where it turned out to be better than you even imagined Kathleen Freeman was just as great to be with a wonderful just a pleasure she would during lunch instead of going off you know whatever she would come and sit with all of us and just tell stories you know everybody's gonna ask a question we just all tell her stories she would tell I mean she would tell a stories it was fantastic and yeah I've been very very lucky part of it I think I'm pretty lucky that I think I have a pretty good sense of who you would want to meet you know what I mean yeah well there you go yeah because there's sometimes you know some people that have great admiration before I just have a feeling yeah let it pass yeah you know and and frankly Jerry appreciate the art don't take it any further than that well there were a couple of Jerry Lewis fans on the Letterman show and we were you know at Tom gamel's as a big Jerry Lewis fan yeah and we we but we talked about it beforehand you said you know because he has a reputation he can be difficult I think that may be putting a modeling but but we but we both figured this is one that we had to we had to make the roll the dice regardless uh normally I think I would have passed but I I can't couldn't not because it was Jerry Lewis and you know yeah Legend if one of the first comedians who ever made me laugh hysterically Mount Rushmore or not I mean yeah I mean you know go see what I was like I mean I saw the the Bellboy came out when I was 19 what 1960 so I would have been like six or seven and you know and I I you know it could last forever so maybe it was because he was you know he was comfortable because he was on a show where he knew everybody liked him Dave is a big fan put Paul Shaffer is a big fan he was surrounded by people he couldn't have been nicer that day he was just this and and also I have to say what I liked about it is he he whatever we I would ask him something about you know something about him and he would ask something about the show yeah he asked me about Calvert which came out to be perfect because I was the guy to tell him the story so he could have been nicer other people I know who since then and I won't tell the stories but who had really bad experiences with him yeah after that so I'm not making that Jerry Lewis to be a saint by any means I'm just saying I got and in the case of meeting people you admire I I've been very lucky I have no benefits I have no bad experiences with anybody I met that I admired uh no you mentioned Calvert to Forest I'm just gonna I'm gonna say is Larry Bud Melman I met Calvert he's very nice so I heard he was could be evil backstage but he Calvary couldn't have been nicer with money about us you know I mean I mean your perspective is a little different though because at the end of the day you're you're the one that was a joke oh you know what you know where I you know where I went with that because I had no idea apparently weren't around here what we had regalski on not too long ago and he was uh one of the guys in charge of uh like he and Calvert went on the the the transatlantic Adventure whatever it was he was he was traveling with him for weeks and weeks and weeks right and and so dream come true for anybody well oh man uh uh fantastic that was awesome yeah well yeah we're losing ground here aren't we Mike guys something's happening I don't know I've lost the threat apparently no no no no no no no no you certainly didn't um Dave's voice was a dream come true wasn't it you know then would you have gotten it it was meant to be sarcasm but go ahead remember remember the the Santa Claus thing it was magic wasn't it that was that was Dave's line but it was just not the magic that he was yeah that's right uh by the way this is the uh if it's okay with you I would like to use this as the thumbnail for this episode if you're okay with this um I can't see it it's going blurry no what is it a picture of her tell him just tell me because I can't oh it's the the the the sponge and but I can't tell what the picture is on top of that can you tell me I can't absolutely uh it's Calvert uh on stage here I'll do this here yeah just it oh okay uh yeah you can show that I mean I wasn't there I think that was going to the night of a thousand stars or something well I took that picture in your apartment no no I mean the picture of Calvert I don't know where the Christmas yeah yeah yeah I just I just thought the original was fun your uh your name tag and the original sponge I thought that would be a good thumbnail yes how much is that worth now upwards of eleven dollars I think you know it's funny uh there's there are some folks where if you gathered them all in one room and you put on a a like a you know a spontaneous auction for that sponge I bet you it would go huge if the right people were in that room Dave no I was being sarcastic then too so we'll just keep rolling along here as well well Dave what did Dave put up one of his worldwide pants jackets uh just just now and they I believe they suspended the auction because the bid went over eight thousand dollars and they're like okay well hold on a second here like like there's some people who are crazy for this stuff wait a minute all right ah he's gonna go get it right on how much is this weight can I get on camera how much is one of these worth to you buddy man that's original yeah they stop making they stop making those this is these are the ones that didn't have Dave's name on it because in those days he felt uncomfortable having his name on these things so this this is a first generation jacket boy shout out to Mark Carson by the way um who who uh basically conceived the idea of the jack for one of the bumpers uh that's where that's what the original jacket came from but yeah that's that's one of the OG ones oh you got a fun story about one of those jackets Carl's version of of that jacket oh yeah I I nah all right I'm gonna tell this but because you asked for it but Carlton had you know was tend to be and not quite right reason to be he didn't have a lot of money I mean as you know even even on this working on the show whatever he tend to be careful with money and and so especially at that point you guys are awesome it's an upstart show based on a show of course I know my father said when he heard what because he used to work in television so he when he heard what kind of salary we were making said my God I can't believe they get that much for that money for doing this um perspective and now that probably would seem like very little money I hate to say after all these years but but in a case so you never knew and so they went around and they were asking people to you know about their order we're expecting to pay for our jackets uh which was required in Disney later on uh because they pay for nothing uh but in case we we you know we and they said do you want um leather or vinyl sleeves the vinyl sleeves are cheaper the only person in the entire office who opted for the vinyl sleeves was Carl and then they picked up the tab for all the jackets without telling anybody but he got the only vinyl one yeah because he now now he has a limited edition so you can look at that it may be more it may be more valuable now because yeah the vinyl sleeves though for all I know he sold it already by now that's that's exactly the reason I wanted to get this out there it's the only one and it's the only vinyl sleeve jacket so the unlikely possibility that Carl's listening to this take care of that jacket because it's worth money um I had a couple other questions uh a little pieces of business to clean up after the last episode uh now first is uh and I'm gonna I'm gonna provide a little bit of insight and I did in the intro as well uh I'm gonna ask you the question here is this the same wall of books that you're in front of now that you were in front of for our previous yeah or is this a different wall of books no it's the same world it's the same one okay I'm just I'm used to this angle okay but it doesn't have to be the same wall of books you no no there are other ones you have options I have options I have too many books I have to have too many too much of everything except work well I was emailing Laurie uh Lori and I were going back and forth and and you know oh Steve's at the library and it's like oh that's perfect I love I loved hearing that that was uh I a few years ago we you know on on the 79th Street Library I ran to Steve O'Donnell there so okay but you know is that there you are so I really wanted to be at that breakfast by the way when I heard that he came over for breakfast I I really I I had a I had I had what the kids call fomo I I had the fear of missing out I I really wanted to be at that breakfast uh after after we had breakfast and then O'Donnell came over uh to your guys's house I I yeah I can imagine the conversation would have been fantastic the don don Giller is very funny I'm going to quote a Don gilderline now uh he was talking about the fact that because he in the picture that Steve took with you his head he usually he tells his head yeah pictures and it was straight up on on the picture with you and uh and he said uh that that's not that's not Steve O'Donnell because his head's not felt it and I I wrote on Facebook and I wrote back the spinal surgery was a complete success we're all very happy and which I talked about with Steven said I think I probably do that because I'm tall and I'm just used to try to get to get my head into pictures but um I hadn't even noticed that until Don pointed that out that Steve told him oh you talk about observational and with a with a a Rapier like wit uh a Giller is just he's a killer killer the killer yeah that's very funny extremely funny uh now let's stop talking about it because we want to get more so I'll have the New Orleans exactly the other thing other thing and it'll tie this I I hate to end this with you I thank you so much that that we've become uh friendly and and I'm so grateful we can do this uh you know periodically and I really enjoy this I mean anytime you know I think your audience has had enough by now but anytime you know Lori prepared a whole list of topics we never talked about and we still have um we didn't talk about Andy Kaufman I think oh we did talk about that uh we didn't talk about um Bill Murray the Bill Murray thing where okay there's where we're about to go I'm about to go to Bill Murray yeah um and the reason I want to go to Bill Murray is because I was uh you know for the most part I'm not criticized too too much and I've got a few people in my life who uh give me brutal honesty about this show because the brutal honesty is what helps improve it but there were a folk a few folks who kindly observed that uh you were one of the OG Late Night with David Letterman writers the first episode legendary in in some respects those who are in the know understand that the you know the Bill Murray being the first guest insane amount of prep for the first episode as opposed to all the rest of the episodes because the rest of the episodes It's breaknight speed you're literally kind of going as it's rolling whether you whether whether you're injured or not it's rolling uh but the first episode there was a lot of prep and and uh there's supposed to be a lot of prep I don't know about how it showed up on the air um the writers all went to Bill Murray's house and uh Bill Murray did that no one knows where Bill Murray's house is uh except that except that that he no I don't know I have no idea no he came to he came to 30 to 30 Rock because you know I mean that was but but Bill okay so this story I mean there's versions of the story have been told in some of the books and things like that yes but I would point out that that that I brought normal details for it and I'll tell you they'll know why if if you yeah so this battle I guess this was about a week before I I kept in my stories yeah I always tell stories incorrectly and then Don Gill explains me why I can't possibly be right yeah he correct me about my own own memories but it was I guess about probably about a week before the show um to try to come up with something to do on on this first show for him to do yeah and so you know he has SNL hours I guess so we met after the show not after the show but we had to show you but after five after everybody else left we go into the conference room and Bill Murray starts prepping the room and first thing he does he has one of the old boom boxes which were I guess more top more typical then sure he puts it on find the station he wants it doesn't like the sound quality so he takes one of the metal garbage cans turns it over takes all the garbage out and puts it inside the can puts it on the table whether so the residents will be to the way he liked it so he he put that there uh uh he at one some point he gets one of the surviving interns wherever is still there it says it orders tequila for the room sends him out for tequila um now now he's got the music going the Tequila's coming in and he doesn't like the lighting so he he puts the lamp where he wants it he takes his his I think I know it was a jack I think it was a sweater he had they takes a sweater and he kind of drapes it around the top the the top of the lamp so the lighting will be right correct a fire hazard but it looks good well you know what the hell right and and you know here comes tequila so the the mark for making margaritas with people and I'm thinking literally because this is my first like my first or second week in show business again okay I literally have come off of not being able to get seen by anybody to working on an NBC television show yep and I'm thinking oh this is going to be one of those parties that those SNL people have you know one of those parts you know I thought that's I don't know right because we always heard stories um but then the thing that people don't say about when they tell that story that I've seen elsewhere is that that the moment he had everything through his liking he said sits down and starts trying to write the show we start trying to write bits he was absolutely focused on trying to come up with something funny we didn't get anything funny because every you know because the writers were drinking margaritas what what was going to come out of that so absolutely nothing happened but I remember it very well because I I've never been a drinker and Carl's never been a drinker so we were I think we're the only two sober people in the room so I have a better memory that day than I expect mostly other guys do so ultimately he went off and came up with whatever he with the thing you know they did let's the uh Olivia Newton Johnson let's be physical he started dancing around he grabbed our uh our one of our our stage managers and started twirling her around without uh letting her know he was going to do that uh and you know and and that's what he did and everybody remembers that pit that's I it's very I think it's more strange than funny but that's that's Bill Murray and it worked it was you know it worked for the show because it was something you wouldn't see everywhere so that's the first show you saw that um yep but that that was the that was the story and you know I don't have any other he's you know I don't didn't really get to know him Lori has something she wants to say oh yeah I mean you know the day but the day after the thing I told I run at the Merrell first thing in the morning she had hit left she and David left long before this was going on I said do you know what do you know what happened here last night and she said yes he says when will Bill learn you can't get good comedy goodbye gang The Writer's grown uh so I mean she's doing that that was in a maternal voice that was being funny but she was doing it as a fake mother kind of joke yeah um but yeah we didn't get anything funny out of it but it's a story and other than that you know we'll keep you on the show and say hi and he did I think he tended to remember our name so again but I don't know much beyond that I I know that uh you know another Bill Murray story I know second hand which is that um Robert Klein's house is on the top of a hill uh where there's a golf course at the bottom yeah and there's of course Robert has a porch which one when you know that out there sorry there and apparently somebody told Bill Murray what was was playing golf and somebody said to him do you know Robert Klein lives up the hill and Rob and Bill Murray turns the golf cart around drives up the hill drives up the stairs and onto Robert's porch to get him to get him out um I don't know how much Robert to this day I don't know how much Robert really enjoyed that experience but that's because Legends love it when enthusiasts show up at their house uh even if they're Bill Murray like I mean you know that well yeah I don't know but I don't know if they like you driving onto their porch I know right that's the question right I mean it's an interesting thing there's an interesting thing going on now and again I don't know him so I don't know if stories are true and what stories aren't true whatever but there's an interesting thing going on where he's starting to get people started complaining about some of the things he did when he was working on movies the way he treated women or something like that yeah and you can look at that in a way it's an interesting sort of extension of the fact that there he has had this sort of Bill Murray leeway for 40 years 40 years now uh based on uh uh what people know that that's that's Bill Murray with in quotation marks so he's famous for crashing people's weddings he does this he does that and it's an interesting turn now that people are starting to say you know maybe some of those things you did as Bill Murray that aren't weren't right and it's not my judgments their judgments every individual's judgment yeah so I certainly accept you know the women who are saying that if he did this but you know it might in a sense it may have been hard for him to differentiate because he has his comedian's leeway that people weren't like that that he would do crazy things because he was Bill Murray so this is an interesting turn I think in terms of the stuff we were talking about before of uh of you know what what works now and did that that what doesn't work now that might have worked then uh I I don't know what you know it's an interesting experience I don't know how it's going to shake out ultimately for him as a as a performer as you know going forward I'll tell you how I want it to shake out and I and I think I do have a little bit of insight to this like I said because of the the men's mental health uh podcast that I host and we have talked a lot about this um because there's a lot of people not just men but but but men in general is the focal point of the other show so so you know I've skewed a little bit but there's a lot of people who um are afraid because of previous behaviors that were acceptable then or even if they weren't acceptable then it was uh viewed again from a different lens back then versus now and and the one that I have a I personally as I see the pendulum have swung too far my this is again just Mike's uh it's spitballing but the idea that I'll bring up another example there's Mr Murray you talk about him right now I've been up Senator Al Franken okay I think if a picture surfaces when he was a comedian and I think we all know the picture that we're talking about with him on the on the military plane and the sleeping um you know a soldier um you know there should be an opportunity if it's a picture like that surfaces it's as simple as oh I'm sorry you know what back then I was a jackass whatever whatever the thing is there should be the opportunity to make amends and I think that's the the pendulum has swung too far if it just swings back a notch or two something from my high school I mean I don't know I never did blackface or anything like that growing up but if something showed up uh of me in high school they had the opportunity to apologize sent me a picture of you in blackface so you if anybody would have it it'd be him oh my God he sent it so we're just so you know when it comes out tomorrow in the Press we can't say you weren't warned okay that's right that's right but see I never did it but like our prime minister in Canada Justin Trudeau famously has this picture that went out with him in high school or Elementary School I didn't do it but I certainly was a part of uh you know costume parties and things like that where people did it um all sorts of ways back then it was it was fine and now I pity the people who who have this these you know skeletons in their closet you know and and and you know every yeah things change I think part of Franklin's problem was he was a little not great at the at the if he'd simply just come out right and said yeah I was an idiot and this is what I did but he didn't quite do that at the time so that had something to do with it I mean I think frankly I think you should probably go this would be a good time for the run for Senate again I think you get you get back in uh frankly and I think that's fine the time has passed and you know he's done his Penance come on back and do that you know that there are many people who probably suggest the best best thing about him being sent as it kept him out of Comedy for a few years but I'm not one of those people I would never say that of course hey did you know did you uh cross paths with Al along the no you didn't no the closest I came to it when he and and uh when he was Franklin and Davis they were on the Letterman show yeah yeah and I had Carl and I had written a bit uh for that was supposed to let show that they were going to be in and then with Merrell's help engineeringly genuinely rewrote it without you know uh to their to their liking and you know it's fine it was it wasn't the greatest bit in the world anyway but it was kind of a fun bit uh and then so they had lived their way through it but I don't think I even met him when they were on the when they did that so no I have very little connection National people in general except the ones I work with I uh he's a guy that I think that you would probably get along with because you're both uh extremely intelligent you both have that uh that perfect Askew way of of looking at things and observing things and then communicating uh that and I just appreciate I appreciate your intelligence and your insights so much Steve um you have this and we didn't get to you know Steve Young when he came on the show he brought up the idea of the broken comedy writer and and the comedy writer's uh mentality of of of of the way that they look at life and and you know you know their their their uh sentenced to the idea when they find something hilarious to go oh that's funny you know um and not not belly laughs so much uh I wanted to get into all of that kind of stuff with you I mean I've got I've got a list as well that we didn't get to but we're we're at the point where uh where I think it's time to call it um I love you man I love you I love Gloria I'm so grateful that you guys are real and Candy both oh man this has been so much fun um any last words right here it means the world um it looks delicate to me I mean and I'm a klutz so you know you don't want me oh lady wait the whole cup with a maybe you could have it weaved sorry it's a little Jerry line um if just speaking of Jerry Lewis by the way for for folks who who the generation gap is really long if you want to see a very cool uh Jerry Lewis thing that you might be able to access watch The Comedians and Cars Getting Coffee and Jerry Seinfeld with with Jim yeah it wasn't funny though no it's more nostalgic and more of a more of a you know him talking to him seeing him with his Oscar sitting there like it brings reverence to Jerry for sure yeah yeah no that you get but and then going through some clips and talking about old show business and and you might see why when you realize how much Jerry um you know he was for departments never mind you know four different roles acting director he was four departments doing these movies Picture Oscar not you know I lived to see a few years ago they did it they did Jerry Lewis At The Museum of Modern Art they had a display of his storyboards and film clips they had you know and I said I'm so glad I lived long enough to see that you know uh probably helped that he had already passed by that time so he couldn't get in the way and cause trouble but it was where he he was fully worthy of that you know whatever you think of him as human being as an artist I mean he was a first-rate director asked Martin Scorsese because you know he'll he'd be the first to tell you uh and he was very and he invented the the uh the um the the the uh the camera what you call it I can't remember anything today with the camera that so the video camera how do you assist video assistant oh videos oh yeah yeah video says he invented the video he invented that he you know uh in fact I I always heard the story that he invented it you know the the there was a video tape that he had was it the first thing he did was to actually because they didn't have videotape he actually had monitors put and all the point upper corners of the of the set because there was no videotape so the video they would have had to invent how we do that to make that happen he could glance at it during the shop yeah so you could see how it was working then he flew to Japan to talk to the president of Sony to develop the the technology so when they say he invented that they're not kidding he was at he had his hands in telling the president of Sony what he needed and what would work for him and there was not a there was now of course everybody shoots on video but in the you know for the for that all those years of film there is not a single director who did not use the video assist and that's Jerry's see you think of Steven Spielberg you think of George Lucas when it comes to you know creating a James Cameron for creating technology for um you know uh to to assist this kind of thing you don't necessarily think Jerry Lewis I'm glad that you mentioned that today um God damn I love I love doing this I can't wait for our next one uh can I work with you guys in person as you know I'm chronically unemployed so I'm very very available so well God I yeah you know and again this is the this is the dreamer uh this is the dreamer in me but but the idea that I've talked to so many folks who who worked for uh any number of of Dave's Productions that that would love to have an outlet to do something um and when I think of the idea of being able to create a platform or a place where people could do that we talk about this idea of the Letterman podcast Network and some of these other things that we're we're dreaming and pitching and all of these things you're one of the first guys I think of that you talk about chronically unemployed and all that oh my God Stephen you are uh a plethora of insight um wisdom um thank you entertainment and if you want to plug one thing I don't remember I think I did then we could wrap this up because when I say unemployed the the I I've been writing film essays for Criterion for a while now and it's pretty and they can get them to the website they also Barnes Noble still has their half-price sale the two I wrote the book that essays for Harold lawyers The Freshman which is a masterpiece and the in-laws the Andrew Bergman and Arthur Miller with with uh with uh Peter Faulk and Alan Arkin this is ABS hysterically funny and those two are available for half price like all the other Criterion discs for the next I don't get any money when they sell them so this is just me doing it because I love those guys the people Criterion are wonderful wonderful people so I wanted to plug them for for what they did and give me this sort of second weird career I got rid of all of my DVDs except for the Criterion ones uh I can't I can't do you have lunch but at the in-laws do you own a copy of those too I don't I don't well you have you have about four days left to get the Blu-rays with my these are essays and fantastic extras and they're both Masterpiece and they should be on your shelf okay um the next time and I'm just going to throw this out to the to the ether as well the next time uh we're in New York I want to um I want to put you and I want to put shecky in a room and I just want to sit there and listen to you guys talk about old film um I'm a big fan of the the passage of knowledge and the transfer of knowledge and all that and you are that guy Ai and uh I just appreciate the hell out of you man um until the next time and that's how we're gonna say this I hope the finger gets better it's almost I can get it about halfway down now at this point so we'll see okay I'll do a quick I'm so glad it wasn't my right hand anyway I love it I can't love the candy Absolutely I'll do a quick outro here and then uh we can say our goodbye privately so uh um okay so yeah I mean this is a day off for me not that all the the podcasts that we do here are aren't a day off for me they're all lovely but obviously just talking with friends is is a phenomenal thing Steve is just um this amazing amazing uh resource of memory of insight all of these things I love this so much please if you uh if you like the show hell if you don't like this show please like please share Please Subscribe all of that stuff um I'm getting sick and tired of saying it I can't wait to get to the point where I don't have to say it anymore uh but we're not there yet um please like share subscribe the letter and podcast please join the Facebook group and then of course uh the Letterman podcast is one sponsor and that is the Ripper G and the hello daily go to Hello deli.com and uh check out the Letterman merchandise the Rupert merchandise and and let's just I'm just gonna throw this out there and please don't read into this as I say this you won't be able to do that forever you know um you know it's been a great run and hopefully that great run lasts longer for for Rupert and May at the hello Deli but at the end of the day um you know shop there sooner than later uh go see them if you're in the New York area go see him sooner than later again uh one of the most uh photographed people in the city of New York on a daily basis is Rupert G um my name is Mike Chisholm this has been the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisholm I appreciate this so so much let's build something let's continue um and see what evolves from this uh for the Letterman podcast thank you very much my name is Mike Chisholm thank you and good night overcoat and Underpants