Dick Cavett and Eddie Murphy need to rekindle their dynamic

Hello. My name is Dick Cavett and I hope you'll stay tuned. I'll be your host for the next half hour. I I can't guarantee that you'll love the show, but who knows, you might switch channels and get something much worse. Welcome once again to the Letterman podcast. My name is Mike Chisholm. Before we get going here, the Letterman podcast is brought to you by We have one sponsor at the Letterman podcast, one sponsor only, and that is Rupert Gee and the Hello Deli. I Full disclosure, I don't know how many more episodes I'm going to be able to say that or at least be able to say that in the incarnation that things are right now. Rupert is selling the Deli and things are happening. We are going to I know I've been saying for the past few weeks we're going to provide an update. We will. There will be an update coming. Maybe the second week of October we'll have some stuff out where we can talk about Rupert, but you know what? I don't know how it's going to go after the fact.

What I do know is that for 30 years Rupert Gee has been and and and his business partner May have been serving soup and sandwiches to the good folks of New York. Nestled within the womb of the Ed Sullivan Theater sits the Hello Deli and I could not be happier for Rupert that he is moving on to the next phase of his life. You know, five 400 and some odd appearances on on on Letterman and and and a friend of the show, a friend of Worldwide Pants. We just I'm so grateful to have the connection that I do with him and I'm going to be seeing him soon, which is which is a delight. But if you want official Late Show with David Letterman merchandise, if you like you know, Late Show mugs, if you want a Late Show with David Letterman t-shirt, not this one, this is from the 10th anniversary, but other ones, long sleeve, short sleeve, blue, gray, hats, they have all sorts of Late Show with David Letterman apparel and and different swag, as they like to say.

Go get them. Go get them now. Go to hellodashdeli.com. Like I said, he's selling the deli. He also sells his own t-shirts. Uh, go to hellodashdeli.com and get your Rupert G or your Late Show with David Letterman merchandise. Who knows? Maybe in a couple of months I'll be able to say, "Yeah, the website's going and he's still doing it." I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. We're going to find out from Rupert directly what's going to happen with that as soon as we can, but what I do know is is that it's open for business right now. hellodashdeli.com. And you can get yourself Late Show with David Letterman merchandise. Um, that's out of the way. Today's guest is a legend. He is a legend. He's a legend in broadcasting. He's a legend in stand-up. I would say in writing both as a comedy writer and and um, uh, also as a commentator, observist, um, intellectual, an athletic intellectual as you'll find. Dick Cavett is an absolute legend. Um, he was a mentor of David Letterman.

You know, you know, I I I just am so blown away that we got to have this conversation here today. I'm going to get to it right away here, but all I can tell you is um, that uh, talking to someone like Dick, um, if I have any advice for anybody, if ever you get a chance to talk to somebody who you admire, that's been around the block a few more times than you have, um, be present. Be in that moment. It was you know, short of 90 minutes, but an hour and 20 minutes or so of of of absolute uh, presence and and and bliss for me. We talk about all sorts of Letterman related stuff, but also with him it was really really tough preparing for this one because it would be so easy to just get wrapped up into the career of this broadcast legend. Um but I wanted to make sure that it was as much Letterman-centric as possible as well because the two have so many parallels in their careers. I've got an entire list of similarities here.

Um uniquely both to Dick and to and to David Letterman and and um uh yeah, we we had a phenomenal conversation. I appreciate him so very very much. Uh at the end of the day, I believe he is uh the the ultimate uh elder statesman of uh late night, certainly of of of late night, of talk shows, um of broadcasting, and I just really am uh honored and humbled to have had this conversation. So, without uh any more of my babbling on, I'm a blowhard, I apologize. Uh here is uh the Letterman podcast is proud to present our conversation with the legend, Dick Cavett. You're back. Uh excellent. Um Mr. Cavett, I just appreciate you taking time. What's that? Would you rather call me Mr. Dick or something more less formal than Mr. Well, you say whatever you like. Can't hurt me. Did did did did your mom call you Richard? Yes. Is she the only one who has called you Richard in the last, you know, decades? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

My mom calls me Michael, she will never call me Mike. I think Richard Burton called me Richard if that counts. Yeah, of course it does. Um I cannot thank you enough for taking time to be on the Letterman podcast today. Um you know, when this connection was made uh to make this happen, um I had a couple lovely conversations with your amazing wife, uh Martha. Uh does she ever make you call her doctor? You got the amazing wife. Okay, yeah. Uh no, no, no, no. She's She knows her place. Nobody's going to hear any of this, are they? No, no, no. Oh god, of course not. Of course not. No, um she and I had a couple really, really great conversations and uh Yeah, I I feel like if she was a gatekeeper, she opened the gate and and I cannot thank you enough for this. This is an extreme honor to talk to you. Um hopefully this is going to be an interview. There's so much uh stuff out there with all of the books that you've written, of course your incredible body of work um that focus on uh you know, I'm hoping to go down a couple of roads here that maybe haven't gone down because we are doing the conversation uh to David Letterman and and the Letterman of it all um and all that. So, I'm I'm really excited about this. Thank you so much, Dick. It means it's a huge honor to be talking to you. Could you repeat something you said earlier? Certainly. Your incredible body.

You did. You don't may not believe it. We saw it. We saw it when you were in the ring with Ali. Um you did a you had some great acrobatics in the ring with Ali messing around uh years ago. Um there's going to be a lot of talk to the viewers and the listeners of this show. There's going to be a lot of talk of amazing moments um and and and most of these are available uh on the YouTube or various broadcasting systems. Um I highly, highly recommend you go and actually check out some of these um these moments. Of course, for the Letterman perspective there is an entire uh on Don Giller's channel, that's who is who's here in the background watching us and and doing that. On his channel, there is all of Dick's uh performances uh and appearances on Letterman um all in one run run. It's one I was wondering about. There's one that somebody labeled the best talk show segment of the year with you know you and Eddie?

But it was the one with Eddie Murphy. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And uh Yeah, and I produced that racist toothpaste or whatever it was. Yeah, okay. That was such a phenomenal segment because it's the it's the it's the unlikely buddies. And and and Eddie, his adoration for you was evident. But it still allowed him to be funny and you were just being yourself out there and the two of you together had a wonderful wonderful chemistry which Dave just I it's early Dave, but it just was so awesome to watch you two just go back and forth and then Dave kind of just enjoy the the discourse. By the way, I have lost all contact with him and various other people thanks to my my odd computer. Can Can you give me a means to find Eddie again? Do you have Uh the clip? Email or anything for it? I I have that clip. I've got permission from World Wide Pants to send that clip to you. I have it and it's going to be sent right after as soon as we're done here. I'm going to resend that.

Okay. But if I want to send him an email, I don't have that anymore. For Dave or for Eddie? Yeah. For Dave, we can we can probably come up with something. For Eddie, I'm not as sure, but I I am certain that we're all 6 degrees away from each other. I'm sure we can make that happen. Tell him I'm willing to pay him the money I owe him. That'll do it. You know what? We'll We'll isolate this isolate this clip and we'll throw it out on the YouTube and see if we can get Eddie Murphy contacting Dick Cavett again. the cat. And they can resume the buddy comedy that is their rapport. Um Wave a Wave a dollar in front of Eddie, he'll snap at it. Okay. Oh, God, this is going to be fun. Any nervousness is is is going away here. Um I really want to I I just you have such a gigantic body of work again, the nice body of work. You are a legend when it comes to talk show hosts um and and and I'm I'm very curious. You are also an incredible writer.

You are also and stand-up, whereas we look at Dave and Dave has prided himself as a broadcaster, but certainly knows how to work an audience and is very good at that, but you are also a pure stand-up. Of the things that you did, writing a New York Times for Johnny Carson, for Jack Paar, for Jerry Lewis, you know, four books. Um conversation, discourse, whether it be about entertainment, whether it be about you know, social issues, or or or stand-up, performing and making an audience laugh and getting them in the palm of your hand and doing your thing.

Of the three, did you have a favorite or did you like all three equally? I think I I was born to like performing in general. I mean I don't crave going back to doing stand-up, but I if I did, I'd probably like that, too. So, I can't really pick a a favorite route for delivering my gems. I feel you. Okay. Yeah. Um You worked for people that you know, you got a chance to meet some of your greatest um heroes when in the world of entertainment and broadcasting. you got to write for some of them. And then you got to to look at them as peers. Um and the gratefulness that you have for that is evident no matter what decade you're talking about it. All the way up to now. Um and then when you contrast that to now, you know, I want to talk about the letter that Dave wrote you, but then I I was listening to Stephen Colbert. He's on a a podcast with the other five late night hosts right now during the the writer strike. And in one of the last episodes, he talked about his adoration for you and and the fact that he has gotten to strike up a friendship with you and what that means to him.

Um looking at your from your vantage point where you are and I would say the elder statesman of of of late night talk show hosts, um you got a chance to meet your heroes, become peers, and then become the hero of others. I'm curious about your perspective about that. Yeah, not many people get that. opportunity, you know, to to worship and drool over somebody's talents and performance and then find yourself sitting next to them later and even going for coffee or something intimate like that. Yeah, it's that's a real blessing and um I about it, but I hear a voice saying this will be deducted from your share in paradise. What is that from? I don't know. I can't call that. share in paradise. I want your viewers to all inform me where that came into my head. I bet you Colbert knows. That sounds like something that he would know. That sounds like a quote he could pull out of the air. Yeah. I bet it's Googleable. I bet it is.

I'm certain it's Googleable. Yeah. Um I want to talk about your rapport with Johnny Carson. Because you were working for Jack Paar. Uh Johnny took over. You started working um for him, writing for him. And then started appearing opposite him and and and would be considered counter programming competition, that sort of thing. Yet you still seem to maintain a wonderful relationship. Uh certainly professionally. Because you would appear on the night show. I I was ashamed of a couple of incidents I had with him. And one was I was in a parking lot at CBS backing my car out in California. And during two weeks there. And so was he. And he had a DeLorean and he said, "Come on, ride this." And I said, "It's okay. I I I got my car right here." He said, "Come on." I said, "No, it's okay." Like a fool, why didn't I go? And I thought, "Jesus, I really hurt his feelings." But this was all solved and dissolved when um later we had a wonderful dinner together uh in a restaurant out in LA and talked about everything including uh young men losing their virginity and or trying to and that sort of thing. So we had a we had a one great talk personally and that was really the last time I spent time with Johnny. And I'm glad it it ever happened. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Would that have been uh you know, you had a you had a you had a an appearance on the Tonight Show. I think it was in '83. And and you and he were were musing about jokes that you had written for him and and and and uh really the complexity of of of humor, you know, throwing anagrams into it and and and and and smart humor. Were you always a guy who didn't want to necessarily lower yourself to the standard of the audience, but to bring them up when it came to your humor? If I was, it was unconscious because I could never saw myself as someone who brought anybody up. Though I'm told in the sense of that phrase that I did. Um But there was a time when I really worried that I was offending him. I was doing the show for the annual two weeks in California a tradition that Jack started or and I was out there and I finished the taping and I was just on the way to the parking lot to drive back to the hotel and somebody said there's a phone call for you and I said I'm leaving and they said it's Johnny Carson and I said sure it is. Uh Tell him something.

Um I said no, really is Johnny and that seemed to like Johnny. I got on the phone with him from my dressing temporary dressing room in California and uh he said let me at the following restaurant. And I said oh, Johnny and they've already taken my nice clothes back and locked them up. I've just got on you know, kind of crummy looking stuff and the worst part is a pair of muddy white tennis shoes. He laughed and he said come ahead anyway. So I did and horribly right away suddenly they needed me suddenly to retake something. And I had I thought I'll get this over with. Finally headed toward that restaurant, got stuck in traffic and I thought nobody is dumb enough to still be waiting for me. Uh and I sent him a note he said come ahead come ahead so I did. I got to this nice, lovely, dark California restaurant. Didn't see him. And then I checked at the bar and he was sitting there in one of his bespoke suits, looking like a million bucks, but wearing muddy, white tennis shoes.

I thought that was wonderful. Somebody said, "Oh, come on. Where's it Where's he going to get muddy white tennis shoes?" I said, "If you're Johnny Carson, you get them." And he got them and he so loved his joke. Uh it was almost it was actually touching in a way. And that was when we had a wonderful evening. Uh one of the one of the things I I I appreciate uh one of the moments that you actually shared with Johnny on The Tonight Show, which which must have been insanely gratifying, was being able to tell him uh how much you appreciated the first time you actually broke him up. And I think it was a I think you did an ad-lib line, something about Gilligan's Island. And uh it was Yes, oh how true. I'm glad of the things you remember of me, you remember one of the good ones. Yeah, it was it was I was on the uh I was on the show uh quite a long time ago, but I was already somewhat established. And uh I was one of four guests. Yeah.

Uh it turned out I was the I came out first, then I moved out and another guest, another guest. So at the end of the show, I was at the extreme right side. And um he asked so-and-so, "What are you doing?" "I'm making a movie." "What are you doing?" "Well, I got a new special." "What are you doing?" "I've just signed for a wonderful series." And I didn't have anything particular. Make that anything. Uh and he said, "Well, what are you doing, Dick?" And I thought, "Oh god, I hoped I'd stretch this long enough that he wouldn't get to me." But he did. And the gods smiled upon me and I heard myself say, "Uh I'm working on a Johnny on a new idea. It's a sitcom, really. It's a humorous version of Gilligan's Island." That is just It fractured him. And of course, Earl Wilson and others who quoted it misquoted it. Yeah. And it was a lesson in how not to word humor by saying, "It's a funny version." Or it's a comic No, no, no, a humorous ver- Dummies.

Oh, anyway, I'm getting carried away. But that's It was a good moment. You uh you have full full permission to get carried away any way that you like on this show, sir. Um during those times, so that's that's the early '80s. Um you know, the landscape of late night was changing, television expanding. Um you know, you were abs- absolutely well-established by that point. Now, let's bring it back to the Letterman of it all, as I like to say. Um Okay. As at some point, and I I I want to think it's maybe the early '70s, you receive a letter from a young David Letterman. Yes, I did. Uh and uh Do you have that, by the way? I wish I did. I wish I did. too, cuz I remember I liked it really liked it and and at the end of it, he signed it, "Your pal, David Letterman." And um I like to think he would still today. Aw. I don't I don't think I've ever offended him in the meantime. Yeah, we had we had some wonderful times together.

Um certainly and again, I cannot me once in Central Park. Yep. I was jogging around the the track in Central Park and I ran into Dave and um so I jogged with him and then I turned around and ran jogged at top speed backwards. Um actually I am this is awful to have to say uh athletically gifted and people think I'm not maybe because they where you're an intellectual an awful word that will get you off television fast if you're not careful. And uh I I then I feel need to point out that I was a gymnast in high school. I wasn't obviously cut out for football or baseball and my dad who taught at that high school a real embarrassment at that age uh said it'd be nice if you could letter in something. Yep. What what can I letter in? Stamp collecting or the uh they had a new gymnastics team but it was poverty-stricken they had only mats. Yep. And a pommel horse. Nobody likes the pommel horse when they start it's it is uh this is just a fact not an opinion the hardest piece of apparatus to work.

Well, they also got parallel bars then we got rings and we got but and everybody abandoned the pommel horse and I thought I might as well stay with this. And ultimately the punchline that I'm so humble about is that I became the pommel horse state champion. Uh and uh that's almost my proudest accomplishment. Yeah. Take that intellectuals. Um the again, I go back to that clip with Ali. Um, you know, you are our life and and absolutely acrobatic in that little bit that you did with Muhammad Ali in the ring and I love that. I love that clip and and of course the documentary I think I did a great forward fall on that and when he when he allegedly punched me. Yeah. A pro wrestler could not have done it better. Um, As Dave was coming up and as the you know, everything was expanding, was it conscious to you that Dave was kind of a protege to Johnny Carson? I mean, you saw late night you know, I and and and and you know, under Carson Productions getting that 12:30 slot during one of Johnny's famous contract negotiations where he gained more power and and and whatnot. He gets his 12:30 slot and and and David David Letterman gets the the nod for late night.

At that point, you had known Dave already a little bit, right? I mean, from the letter but from the morning show. Yeah. Did you see his talent right away? Say again? Did you see Dave's extreme talent right away? Oh, yeah. I mean, how could you not? Yeah. It didn't take um much brains to see how good he was. Yeah. Yeah, I thought this guy's got it and uh That's a nice feeling. You see somebody you're not aware of their work very much or if at all and then they just shine and you think, "Oh, somebody new and good." What's his name again? Lather Later? My house Letterman. Late Night with David Letterman. Yeah. And and and I don't want to I I want to put words in and and revise history in any way, but there are some who would look and say, "Okay, well, this is kind of Johnny Carson's, you know, guy. This is the guy that he's shining up." I thought you might have an interesting perspective on that idea back then having the dynamic that you had being, you know, with the relationship with Johnny that you had. Was that apparent to you?

Was I aware of of my my relationship with Carson? Was um way back way back by the way. You may know this, but he was a big star to me while both of us were in Nebraska. He was on WOW TV, I believe it was in Omaha. And they had a show entitled the Johnny Carson Show. So, you couldn't get any bigger than that than being a star in Omaha. One day he came to Lincoln where I lived and did an evening of magic in a church basement. I too I'm still a member of the International Brotherhood of Magicians. And um So, I took two friends. I said, "Let's go see Johnny Carson." He you know, the guy from TV in Omaha. And they said, "Oh, yeah, yeah." So, we went to the church basement. There was a little theater. The curtains were closed. And my way that I did in a bigger way later in life, I just boldly went backstage and confronted him. Years later it was Judy Garland and folks like that. But uh He looked annoyed and I knew why because he was setting up his magic act. And a magician when he's putting the dove into the dove pan does not want to be seen. I said, "It's okay, Johnny. We're magician." And he changed.

And he was great and he showed us how to do card fans of certain kinds stuff. And then we sat in the audience and during his act, he said, "You have some magicians here in Lincoln. Right there, those three guys. Will you three stand up?" And we did and they applauded and we thought we were on the Ed Sullivan show. Absolutely. Yep. Introduced from the by the star in the audience. That evening ended and we watched worshipfully as he glided back into the night in what I think was a 1938 DeSoto uh back to Omaha and back to the world of glamour. And then years later your paths would cross multiple times in multiple ways. Um Yeah, well, the odds against two people from Nebraska ending up sort of in the same path like that is pretty strange. Yeah. People would say, "Is there something in the water in Nebraska that makes talk show hosts?" And I would pretend to be amused. It's that Midwestern charm. That that that that fabled Midwestern charm that so many have written about. Uh you know, Letterman obviously has it as well and and and and others. Yeah.

You know, I I uh I want to ask you a little bit about um the programming and the counter programming and whatnot. I grew up in a time the reason that I got so interested in this stuff was because of uh if you've read Bill Carter's book The Late Shift, uh right then and there I was in high school at that point. That was my Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And and and I had already loved Letterman and and the whole saga about that. I want to get to that. I want to ask about your viewpoint about, you know, the first late shift and then the second one, the contentiousness with late night TV, counter programming, booking, all of that, Johnny's fallout out Joan Rivers, all of that stuff is right in my wheelhouse. But back then, when you were on Okay, go ahead. Get game You can only contain so much of that stuff. Sorry, go ahead. No, don't ever be sorry. So, but before that, the generation before that, you know, and and and many have the narrative is that The Tonight Show was this unstoppable force that nobody could ever counter program against.

But you had this amazing career, I think, of My opinion is you complemented Johnny. The things that Johnny were, you were not in many respects. And and you know, a couple examples being nobody knew what Johnny really was politically. You would definitely talk about social issues and things like that. The musical acts on your show would be featured and they'd be first rather than, you know, traditionally at the at the end of the show. That that kind of thing. And many, many other things. Um A couple questions. Was that cognizant? And and the second question is, when it came to booking things, did Johnny ever Did you and Johnny ever look at each other as competitors? Because it certainly got that way in the generation that I described that I came up in. Are there so many things to worry about that I tried not to worry about our being competitors. But I and I remember when I first went there and there there were two kinds of columns. "Cavett is out to beat Johnny Carson off the air, to dethrone the king, and so on." Or "Cavett must be crazy to think anybody is going to tune in to see him when you can get Johnny Carson. Why why would they?"

As history records, I did not bash him off the air. And if I had, we might even then have remained friends, but that was just never going to happen. And and therefore didn't. And but people would say you must hate each other because you're so desperately competing with each other. Crazy to think of that. I never thought of it. I would have been content if I'd lasted 3 months against Carson and then gone on to something else. So that uh that fortunately did not become an obsession as some people thought it must be. Um weird. Hm. I uh Anyway, we we both survived largely. I would say. Um I I I would certainly say. So then let's contrast that um you know you've done a great job setting the table as to the attitude that that that I you know safe to say that you had towards each other at that point. Again, I'd point out the fact that you're appearing on his shows and things like that. It's it's it's friendly friendly. Similar to kind of how it is now.

You got the five major talk shows hosts uh you know working together during the strike. That sort of thing. So so sort of a similarity there. But Yeah. some trouble in the middle. Uh late night went uh and and kind of blew itself up. And and and uh you know the late shift happened. I am very very curious when Johnny announced his retirement and uh you know the race began and all of that uh nonsense and ballyhoo happened. Uh what did uh what was your take on all of that?

I really it's I really tried not to think in those terms and I think it's lucky because if you did you could obsess on it and think about it every day. And I always just thought I'm going to take what comes. I've done much more already than I ever thought I would. Maybe it'll keep going. And and fortunately wasn't crazy enough to think the minute I get on the air, Carson's going to have his ratings drop to zero. Yeah. Uh so I really enjoyed it all. Um I must say uh I didn't really have any pessimistic feelings about it, nor assuring optimistic feelings about it. Maybe that's fortunate. Maybe I just I just thought I'm just going to go ahead and do it and see what happens. Yeah. I think that's an accurate picture of myself. And when Dave um finally made the announcement, okay, we're going to we're going to take our pick up our tent pegs and move them. I've got a I've got an entire card here of similarities between um uh you know, yourself and and your body of work versus that of Dave's. Uh one of which is that uh multiple networks. You know, you have taken the same show or the the same you, the same brand that is Dick Cavett and you um have have given that uh to multiple networks. Hadn't been done in a while, and then suddenly Dave is like, "Okay, we're moving over to CBS. We're going to do an 11:30 show." That kind of a thing.

I'm curious about your take about that. I'm amazed by it. Uh when when somebody said, "You know, you've been on four times." I thought you're crazy. It feels like I've just kind of come on and stayed on and maybe took a pause and then I stayed on some more and then I stayed on some more. And but when I look at it and it was four different shows, I'm still amazed at it. Um uh I I I just it's enjoyable in a way. I had when um Decades Network ran up until some about half a year ago. Ran the Cavett shows Yeah. five or nine days a week. Yeah. Um I I I kept getting people saying how grateful they were to see them. But and then I thought maybe I should look at them. And I did. And I was amazed in many ways. Probably the most unbelievable way, well, that's that's too forceful. Uh but uh I uh I would think this show is going very well. This is a famous person. And I don't I could pass a lie detector test if I hadn't been watching this right now.

But I never MET THIS PERSON. I I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS COMING. I didn't know what was said. I did If someone had asked me, "Did you ever have X on your show?" I would have said, "I uh probably. I couldn't be sure." Yeah. But that that was really startling. And it had to do with the fact that the freakishness of doing five nights a week of 90-minute ad-lib television. You can only survive if you can knock out what went the night before and the night before that. And live in the moment doing the one you're doing. Yes. But one time, this is kind of related to that. I came home one night from taping. And uh somebody at my apartment and they said, "How did it go?" And I said, "Fine." Uh "Was it one of your 90-minute shows?" And I said, "Yeah, it was. Uh I think." "Wait a minute." And they said, "Well, who was it?" And I said, "It was um It was I could not think whom I had just taped with an hour earlier. Yeah.

Finally, I did. And it's understandably that it was the obscure relative obscure name Lucille Ball. I was astonished. Not too far after that, I came in one day and dropped my stuff off in Johnny's office when I was still writing for him, obviously. Yep. And they said, "Well, he's not in a very good mood. You know, you want So, I went in and he wasn't and I said, "Is anything bothering you?" in my nosey way. And he said, "Well, yeah. I came home last night and I had the usual show and my wife said, "How'd it go?" and I said, "It's fine." And she said, "Who was it?" And I said, "Well, we And he had had the usual four guests that he usually had. He said, "I couldn't think of one of them." That's a strange thing. It isn't ever going to happen to the average person and it's a weird feeling, but it's understandable. Johnny was relieved that I had it and when I told him I can't think of Lucille Ball's story.

So, uh Cuz he wasn't alone. Yeah. Um I don't know if you remember I don't know if you remember that Once I dropped off my stuff in his office and I was having a kind of dull day. Yep. And I thought I I guess I This is about as best I can do today and I took it down and left it. I went back to my office and the phone rang and it said I said, "Johnny." He said, "Yeah. I think you're capable of a little better monologue than this." Partly because I liked him so much. And it wasn't my fault. I hadn't worked very hard on that day's work. So, everything about our relationship as course ended up a very big positive part of our life. But that really that got me. And it was good that he did it. And we move on to the next terrible story. No, we need to be stretched. And I I like again, the the whole mentor mentee thing here is is is a something that happens whether it's personally or simply professionally, uh the mentor mentee thing is is is huge.

If you look at those five hosts of today that I'm talking about, you know, they look at you guys as their mentors, whether it is personal or not. And and um you know, it it it it hurts to be stretched. But when you're stretched, you can do more. You know, that's why yoga is so good. Um you know, getting out of your comfort zone, your comfort zone gets bigger. And and and this is certainly one of the ingredients that that that allowed you to to to get and flourish as much as you have.

Good point. Yeah, yes, there are. Were there five of us? Right. No, there's five now. There's five now who are doing this uh this this podcast. But Totally, there have been and are five now. Yeah. Yes. Um It's fun for me to watch a talk show. Uh but it wasn't necessarily always fun to watch my own on on uh decades. And by the way, uh I'm all over YouTube Absolutely. Shout Factory. Shout Factory has whole shows. And I'm told that I'm on Hulu and Tubi, which is going to Tubi. Yep. which is what inevitably becomes to be or not to be. I uh Oh, they're so happy. They're going to take a clip of you saying that and they're going to put it out there. Lovely. Nice nice work. Make make their day. Yep. Well, I uh I'm repeatedly amazed at how well I how good I was on some of those. Yeah. And then also at why didn't I think to say this at that point? Oh God, why I missed an opportunity. So, it's a mixed blessing to watch yourself.

You're you're a prophet. Um that is going to happen to me about 30 seconds after we're done today. I'm going to be exactly that. I I I've done that so many times uh where where I've had a guest that on that I just didn't get the um two or three things that oh like and they're they're they're like no-brainers. They're like easy home run things and you forget about it because you but again though, going back, being present in the moment is the most important thing. That's where that's where the joy is for me. Um I blame the gods for not smiling on me and that they ought to treat me better. I could think, "Well, at least the people watching it then didn't know what I should have said." That's true. And then it's balanced by wow, that was a good ad-lib and I'm surprised I did it. I don't remember it. So, it's as is most of life are you ready? A mixed blessing. Yes. Yes, very well said. Don reminds me here, by the way. Back then, there were four: Johnny, yourself, Merv, Mike Douglas. And and if you might not count David Frost, but I don't know if Do we count David Frost?

Uh yeah. Uh David Frost had uh not uh negligible talent. Um Peter Cook, the great great British comic Peter Cook, one of the funniest people who ever lived, from Beyond the Fringe and Cook and Moore together were genius combination. And uh well, what could I say, really? Peter was asked by the London Express some paper um "Is there anything you regret about your life so far?" And he said, "Yes, only one, really. So, I suppose I'm lucky that there's only one." He said, "I once saved David Frost from drowning." Um Don also remind I I had thought of it, too, but Don also chimed in on this, too. The sentiment that you talked about of of of not remember remembering Lucille Ball of all people. Uh if if you remember the night that Dave announced his retirement from Late Show, um he went out and did a desk piece and probably had a a comedy piece sitting right there and kind of just pushed it aside and instead just started talking to the camera, which he which he did uh more and more as the Late Show came to uh to its end. And he talked about this story of uh of of of uh over the weekend, they took a picture of a certain bird and and and he brought it in and he and and he wanted to know what kind of a bird it was. And and the whole staff was uh going about in the research department, people were looking at it.

You know, this is of course the staff of a multi multi multi-million dollar network television show at the top of its game. Um and uh and they discovered, "Oh, it was a golden eagle. This is great. This is awesome. This is fantastic." And he went home that night and uh and and and was talking to his wife and and and and son maybe as well I think at that point and said, "Oh, I found out it was a golden eagle." And she said, "Who was on the show tonight?" And he looked at her and he couldn't tell her who was on the show. And he said, "You know what? It's time to retire." And so I love that sentiment that you Yeah, it's a wonderful moment. Yeah, that was That deserves to be enshrined. Yeah. Um I've got a list here of similarities between you and Dave. One is going to be perhaps uh a little bit arcane to to to some of our viewers and listeners, but to me this is the stuff I love.

Um as Johnny gained his power over over time, uh one of his contract um you know extensions allowed him to have ownership over the Tonight Show and and an unprecedented kind of a move. Uh Dave when he moved over to CBS kind of continued he basically took the Johnny deal other than instead of only working maybe three nights a week, um you know you know other than that that might be the only detail. He kind of took Johnny's deal and brought it over to CBS including ownership of tapes and things like that. I know with you uh you have a very um unique uh thing that's happened uh maybe not unique but but astounding. The first season you have all your tapes and there's a reason why you have all your tapes.

Um I don't in fact have all my tapes. have all of them. Okay. I hate to be the one to have to break that to you. No, no, that's okay. When I began doing the shows Yep. uh several weeks in we learned that the bastard the people I worked for were um erasing that show and using the tape to tape Let's Make a Deal. That's one of the saddest stories I've ever heard. It happened to me. I've repressed it. Of course, we immediately jumped on that. That's an entire season, right? The first season is is lost because it was recorded There are some that are, and one of them is a 90-minuter with Groucho. It's gone to the ages. I Fortunately I hope you saw my special of Groucho and me. That's one of the best things ever put together, and it happened The credit goes to Robert Bader. If you want your shows put together, get Robert Bader to do it. And he noticed one day that we had had Groucho on many times.

And he managed to get a stunning 90-minute show out of it. Google for it if you haven't seen it, folks. Absolutely. Oh, no. Abs- Yes, without a doubt. And this is one of those heroes like Like again, David Letterman is my is is is kind of my idol when it comes to broadcasting and whatnot. Um Groucho was one of those guys for you. And then you got that relationship. Again, we're talking about that uh that luck that might uh shortchange you in paradise, but boy, did it feel good now. Um And I saw uh what my very first Groucho Marx movie in Nebraska, uh my my Marx Brothers movie. If a weird sort of angel had spoken to me and said, "You're going to meet the man named Groucho in this movie." Yeah. I said, "This isn't possible. In the world, nothing could bring us together." And then the fact that we became great friends uh and that I went to his house, and we went to plays together, and movies.

Um is a blessing nobody really deserves. God, what a great thing. Um another of the similarities um between you and and and Dave is you both have been open uh about discussing mental health. Now now you don't know this, my wife is building a men's mental wellness app. Um, and that's actually where I if I have any podcasting chops whatsoever, I got it because I was hosting a men's mental wellness uh podcast uh for her. Uh you know, it's a startup bootstrap doing it out of the house and and so I said to her I said, "Look, if if if can I help in any way?" And she goes, "Well, we don't have anything for marketing." I said, "Well, would you like a podcast?" And she said, "Yeah, I would love that." And that is what ignited my the broadcasting uh of yourself, of Dave, of of all these people that I admire so much. I'm like, "Okay, well, I can do this too then." And and so I got out and um, you know, I had Jeff Altman on on here on the Letterman podcast and and and when he found out about that, he said, "Hey, can I come on your men's mental health podcast, too?" And I said, "Yeah." And and he talked about depression.

And and um I and Dave has talked about his mental health journey uh publicly as well. I just want to tell you I have a wife and this is another one of those things where another similarity you and Dave have is that you have have had the ability to discuss issues that will become um either the norm or or or an extreme part of public discourse long before they actually come into fashion. People talk about mental health all the time now. They didn't when you started talking about depression. And I just want to thank you for that. And if you have anything to say about being an advocate for for that, I appreciate it. I'm not sure what caused me to do that. Uh I'm so glad it happened. Yeah. After the depression, obviously, which somebody by the way called the worst agony designed for man. Real depression. It's not sadness. It's not feeling down. It's not even feeling just awful about, it is dark, you're trapped in it, you think it's never going to end. Yeah. And I remember how I would in the times I was not in it say to people, I know what you're going through. One day the curtain will go up and you'll uh remember what it felt like to be alive.

Yeah. I was on a show with um a a a a a a friend of mine who had a English actor who was rather notorious for his uh bipolar episodes. And um we were talking about this. And I said there's something, isn't there that you must never say to someone in depression? And he said, yes. And almost together, lip-syncing, we said What have you got to be depressed about? You know, you could say, well, you've got a show, or you've got a you're doing well in the movies, or you have a wonderful wife, and yet you're hanging dark deep in depression. Uh and you don't say that. No. You And it's said with the best of intentions. to someone, what have you got to have asthma about? Exactly. It's a disease, dummy. Yeah. Well, anyway. No, I I I'm glad you're saying that because there are a lot of well-meaning people. In the in the in the culture now, there's a there's a phrase, and I think it goes a little too far, but they call it uh toxic positivity. I think that goes a little far, but people who have the right intention because they view the world from their perspective, but how do you tell somebody, like you say, asthma? That is a perfect analogy for that. Oh, just just start breathing. You'd never tell somebody with asthma, "Oh, no, just take a deep breath." It That's That's absurd.

Um but but with depression, that is the perfect analogy for telling somebody to to get your chin up and and and uh you know, and you'll be fine. It's a different a little I've gotten a lot of grateful remarks about that. And the best thing about it, of course, sounds strange. The best thing about it is when somebody will say to me, "You saved my dad's life or my sister's life." And it had to do with that strange perhaps the only good use of celebrity. Yeah. That people will say, "My God, if he can have it, I guess it's okay for me to have it." Yeah. And that saved some people, that insight that he got over it, and I mean just maybe I will, too. Um but if anybody you know, you love is in the pan in it, deal with them, be their best friend, get them help. Yeah. Uh the one rather unattractive aspect to depression is it leads to suicide. Yeah. There's that. Flippantly phrased. Uh but it that's the fear.

And the number of people who said, "Gee, my my kid was doing okay in school, and he was on the football team, and he killed himself." Yeah. Yeah. And Don't say snap out of it. Don't say you'll be fine. Don't say go to the movies and feel better. Don't say have a nice drink and go to a party. Get help. Yeah. I appreciate that so much uh you talking about this. Um do you have a few more minutes for me? Like are we okay for a little while or are you all right? I got to go do a little thing. let's pretend that I do because I hate to say this. It sounds so sappy, but I like you. Oh my god. Oh, thank you. happen that often by the way. These things are often miserable. Well, I don't know, man. I have in doing research for this and by the way, what you just talked about how some of your appearances people will come up and and say that I was talking to your friend and mine Eddie Brill this week. Eddie Brill, yeah. Oh, he's great and and we were talking we were on the phone and and and he had a lovely time at the wedding by the way.

Um Oh, that's good. He was telling me because he does please Eddie Brill. What's that? I like to please Eddie Brill. Don't we all? He's a good guy. Especially back when he was booking for Letterman. Oh, yeah. But he he talked about how he does the the tribute to Johnny Carson every year in Nebraska and and whatnot and how you have been so supportive of that and and he when I was asking him a little bit of background and and and and and apparently you like him too by the way. He he said to me he goes one of the most powerful things I've ever seen with Dick is that I'd be standing with him and somebody would come up and say thank you for saving my life, my loved one's life, that kind of a thing because of his talk of depression and and so yes, I want to echo that and other people are echoing that as well. My wife certainly would with with the uphill battle that she is trying to you know, destroy stigma and whatnot. We don't like talking about when we're weak and so thank you again for that.

I think it ranks with um it's akin to what Richard Burton did on a show of mine Yeah. when strangely I thought, "Should I do this or not?" when I had him on. And then I sort of heard myself say, "Would you be willing to talk about booze?" And there was a kind of gasp from the audience. And he said, "I think I've probably said enough about booze in my life." But then he did. Aw. He said, "What it's like to be a drunk." Yeah. He had several phrases, but one of them was for He said, "I'm talking to people who were suffering the problem. I know what it's like. I have been there. I am probably going to be there again. I hope not. But I feel sorry for you, and you can get better, and but I know what it feels like when it's always 3:00 in the morning." And more people were taken by that, grateful for that, helped by that. Yeah. And maybe that's one of good uses of television. Yeah. Absolutely. Um television can connect people in broadcasting in general. The internet's doing it now.

Connects people and and and and it can be used for good or evil. When you when you don't feel that you're alone, that can be the greatest comfort in the entire world. It can also be weaponized with tribalism and and and echo chambers, and people don't listen then. They're not able to listen because they got so many people around them saying the same thing. But I like the former much more than the latter. Uh that we can be there for each other, and um and and connect that way knowing that we're not alone. That takes the edge off many times. It's strange use. It's It's again, maybe I'd already said this, but one of the uh uh one of the good uses of maybe the best of celebrity is that will have that magic quality because people will think of celebrities as godly in some way in many cases. My God, it can happen to Richard Burton. Wow. To be suffering as a drunk and be able to talk about but alcohol um organizations all asked who hadn't seen it if I could get them a copy of that Burton talking about drunk being a drunk because they and we always show them how to get it. It's online by the way. If you haven't seen it, Burton Cabot, I'm sure will bring it to you.

Um but he saved lives Yeah. changed lives. And television should be used more often for that sort of thing. And then reapplied. Again, one of the similarities that you and and and Dave have is you both have these unique both because they are unique both unprecedented bodies of work and and and like you alluded to earlier the whole reason for this show the whole reason that this show exists is like Dave and company yourself Dick Cavett and company you're mining for gold every day and you find some gold you find some diamonds you find some precious precious things and then you just cast them aside that fast because there's another show and you keep mining. Our goal is to pick up these things and talk about them. That's what's happening with Dave's channel Dave's YouTube channel which is still in many ways in its infancy when you compare it to the body of work out there. Your YouTube channel is incredible and I cannot I cannot endorse it enough that people should go on.

It's it's it's Dick from all of his different eras talking about things including the Richard Burton clip is there, but there is so there is so much and and and I'm grateful for the fact that my generation is really the first that can say that there is a record. You talk about your tapes being erased and and and and and removed from the ether. Um I My generation is the first one that has actually been able to to have record of these things and then we can repurpose them into the new technology for a new audience and in my opinion that's wisdom transferred.

That is a public service. That sounds kind of square, but it really is. Yeah. Absolutely. There can you can do good. But I I can remember also thinking, "My god, I just did the I've already done hundreds of shows. Is this ever going to end?" And then of course it would. And then it would start again and then it would strange, but uh or Did you watch The Larry Sanders Show with the Garry Shandling? Did I watch what? The Larry Sanders Show back in the day with Garry Shandling? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, that that was uh that was one of television's best moments. times epics or episodes periods uh chapters Stop me before I keep talking. No, keep talking. Sanders excellent excellent stuff. The You just reminded me um as you were talking about the grind. Um and and and and it just reminded me of a of a picture of Garry um when uh when he was It was a promo shot for the show. It might even have been a cover of the DVD and it's just him with his head in his hands.

And he's just, you know, you can see him kind of shaking his head. And and that to me is the plight of the late night host and uh you know, it it takes a special kind of breed to do it. Um as we kind of move towards the end and I and I am heartbroken to say that, if ever you ever want to come back, you have a standing invite. Hell, you can have the damn show if you want it. Uh you can come on here anytime you like. Um That's touching. By the way, uh and stuff I got about you that my wife had got through talking to her is the mention of a thing called uh a a a special I did called Where It's At. Yes, sir. I can't find that online anywhere. Really? Well, hold on a second. Can I Can I uh let's let's ad-lib a little bit. You what you do. Let's ad-lib and let's see if I can make this happen. Is that me? That's you, sir. Where is it? Is this Where It's At? Yes, sir. Well, I'll be damned. Well, I'll be going to send you 10 bucks if you'll run off a copy of this and send it to me. Oh, there's no 10 bucks necessary, sir. Um look at that kid.

Look at that kid. Gee. How did all happen? Uh I think Don and I and Don's here, we can I think '67 I think is uh we tried to date it as best we could. Um we think it was around '67 that that was uh that that was put out there. I don't think we violated any copyrights. What's that? I did I did a two or three specials. I know that one of them was where it's at and the other one was what's in. Um all I remember about where it's at is I said look at the way they filmed this and I held up a sign that said where it sat. And that's all I remember about it but it I'm sure it had other highlights. That was what's actually I think that was what's in, right Don? Say again? Oh Don I just want Don to start talking but his microphone's off so we'll get him uh There we go. Sorry. That's okay. I had I had a a No coward's kid and I can't remember his name. Uh he was on the show and he was singing Bob Dylan's Mr. Tambourine Man but in a way that that the name and the name of the song was not familiar to the audience.

So that would put it at around 64 maybe early 65. Uh-huh. Yeah. And and and the director of that show was Hal Gurney. There we go. There I was going to yep. Hal Gurney David Letterman's Hal Gurney oh my god yes. Yes sir. A major part of my life. Yeah. Hal Gurney. I I have to go after I'm getting my my COVID shot in around 15 minutes so I have to split. Um I I have one very minor trivial question. Um Bobby Rosen Garden. Yes. He he left the Tonight Show and then he worked on your show. Was that Was that cause and effect or was there no relationship whatsoever? I really don't know. I know that there are things like that that people were involved in putting my show together and somebody said if we can get Rosen Garden and it never occurred to me that it would happen, but we did and we had a wonderful run and times together. Yeah, Bobby Rosengarden. Okay. Uh that's People didn't know what a genius he was because of one thing he did and I didn't get it either. Every so often I would say who the guest was or what they were going to talk about and then there would be music.

It had to be pointed out to me later by my wife or somebody. Don't you get it? He's chosen the song such and such which is a joke on what we're do what you're doing in the show and I didn't get it. I mean uh I mean I wish I could think of it. Oh yeah, okay. So I had on Jan Morris. Mhm. Formerly James Morris of the Queen's Royal Lancers military gentleman who became one of the most prominent sex changers. She agreed to come on the show assuming that I would be serious with her and that I didn't go on. And uh and and and and she did. But when I I was startled last night when I watched the Jan Morris show back and I said here is Jan Morris and the band played there'll be some changes made. And I often missed those, but many other people got them. People hipper than I. Um Uh yeah, good guy. I'm punching up something here. Uh so while Don's doing that and and of course that is another similarity right there.

Um I'm glad we got it because Paul Shaffer and the band, you know, synonymous for they they would do that they would do that absolutely all of the time. Uh they would they would they would play something clever for somebody coming out and yeah I just I I love that and when you catch a little subtlety like that you get a special kind of I don't know if it's a dopamine hit or what it is in your head that happens when you catch the band doing something clever like that. Well people seem to enjoy my admission that they got it when I didn't. Yeah. Um one last thing it probably isn't the last Gautier. Say again? Gautier. I still don't know what you said. Oh Gautier this will be deducted from your share in paradise. OH OH THANK YOU DON. AH thank you. There it is. There it is. I came in today in order to learn something and I'm Um I got to go source of knowledge okay good. Thank you Don. As I said before before we we started uh I'm going to repeat something you said to Groucho I'm your biggest fan.

Oh that's so good to hear. By the way of all the things Groucho did my one of my favorites is he was invited to a seance. And the people who invited to the seance were serious about contacting the other world. And he sat there politely as the seance lady said I I'm in touch now with the other world. Yes I'm in touch with the other world. Does anyone have a Does anyone have a question? And a familiar voice said what is the capital of North Dakota? GOODNIGHT EVERYBODY. Thanks Don appreciate you very very much man. Thank you. Um Yeah. I I have a I have a I have a great way for us to kind of uh uh uh take this thing to a close, even though it it it I do not like that at all. We could always reopen it sometime. Oh. You said the magic words. You just made my day. I'll be walking on air the rest of my day for you saying that, Dick. Thank you. Be careful. That's dangerous. Okay. Um I I You know, a lot of these uh I would like a couple of words, and if it leads to a paragraph or a story, fair enough. I've got some people who um have been whether it's tangentially or directly connected between you and Dave, uh people in common um that And And if you just want to say a few words about some of these people, uh that would be fantastic.

Uh number one is Jack Rollins. The legendary Jack Rollins. Mhm. The late Jack Rollins, who to his amusement lived to be 100 years old, Mhm. was a legendary spotter of talent. He came from nowhere, as people inaccurately say, to discover Harry Belafonte and and a list of headline names and immortals one after the other. Someone named Woody Allen was one of the people. Uh and uh Jack was a prince among thieves as a talent discoverer and manager and handler. Um The fantastic Charles Groden. Groden. I've always been a great fan of Groden. Groden has always amused me seemingly from the moment I first laid eyes on him or met him. Uh Yeah, not many people are as good as Groden. Uh Don Rickles. Who? Yeah. Oh, I wish you were here to hear that. Oh, that's a perfect Oh, perfect. that. Rickles is really a phenomenon because his uh his ability to do what he did that well and that's a tricky thing to do and it can go off the rails so quickly. And so his instant choices of what to say and do uh put him among the greats. Rickles.

Yeah, some I think it was my friend Pat McCormick who said uh I went over I called on Don at home one day, but he was out walking his rat. Uh He He He He engendered that sort of thing. Don't tell Frank. Frank didn't like rats. Paul Newman. Paul Newman. Yeah. We hit it off right away. Uh I I from the very beginning I just was very flattered and glad that we liked each other a lot and uh he was a marvelous talk show guest and a brilliant actor. Not everybody has either one of those. Yeah. Yeah, he Newman first-class tops. Tom Snyder. Who's that? He was a talk show ho Okay. OH, YOU GOT ME. OH, YOU GOT That's a That's It's cheap trick and I'm ashamed that I did it. Oh my god, you got me so good. I remember Tom Snyder. Let's see. I wonder if I can recall this correctly. Tom Snyder, when I was on with him, people said, "By the way, he has one obsession. All he wants to be is asked to be a guest on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson." And they said, "It's just It's killing him."

So, I was on with Snyder, and I said a word that's ambiguous. I wish I remember what it was. He's something or other. And he said, "Well," he took it the wrong way. He didn't really know this word. He thought it was an insult. And he said, "People are always not saying enough of great about him. To say something like that about him is is is terrible." And he was defending him. And I said, "Well done, but he's still not going to have you on the show." From the control Through the control room window, this is a visual. From the control room window, I saw from the people on the staff. Oh, that's lovely. But Tom Snyder had his good sides. Without a doubt. Um I'm not even going to say his last name. Merv. Merv Merv Mervala? Yeah. I had a I had a nice time with Merv. He was uh uh so easy to get along with. Yeah. He was good with jokes. Yeah. Uh he he did his a very really a first-rate monologue, which is not that easy.

Uh Merv also was a fellow. Mhm. I'm not sure whether it's true or that I should say this, but I almost clearly remember his telling me once coming back from some trip or something, "My wife said an interesting thing to me. She said, 'What if there were a show where you started with the answer and went back to the question?'" I think of that every time I see the words Merv Griffin invented. But what what And as usual, of course, she gets no credit at all in that, right? Yeah, yeah, well, sure. Hi. Uh did I miss anything? Hi. Did I miss anything? Not at all. Well, you missed it you missed us talking about how great you are. You did miss that. Oh, well, I'm sorry I missed that, but anyway, the um And chism itself is good. If you're invited on his show, take it. I told you that I told you that I was really uh taken with him on the phone. Yeah. So, uh but I'm going to come in here and sort of start wrapping you guys up.

Okay, well, we're we're actually we're in the midst of wrapping up right now. That's perfect. Good timing, Martha. Thank you. And I'm leaving this in because you are so delightful. Isn't that the case? I will Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely Oh, absolutely. Okay. That That's one of those things you'd say anyway, but it's nice when it's true, isn't it? Yeah. All right. Well, I had a 5-minute conversation cuz I had a background in marketing at at one point, and I had a uh listening to talk that she has coming up, and she told me about it, and and I felt You talk about this here, you know, for the visuals, you talk about this. I felt like I had one of those because I could hang in a conversation with her for 5 minutes about marketing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know you know what you're doing. I mean, uh that's exactly what I I would expect from somebody with Oh, yeah, you're not WWE. You're not in any sense negligible.

Some guys really know how to make a compliment, don't they? I love you guys. Yeah. I just got a couple more and then and then we're wrapped up. Um Okay. All right. Robin Williams. It's it's sad about Robin. It's a that's uh first thing strikes me about him because uh that there was as Jack Groucho said about Jonathan Winters, there's a giant talent. Um and uh Robin uh did not get all the breaks finally. Mean immensely wonderful. I sometimes I go back and watch some appearance of his and I laugh real hard. Yeah. He had it. Yeah. Um Richard Pryor. Oh, Pryor. One of the great inventions of all time. Uh I I I knew Pryor. We were on a thing together. We went to some army base and did a show together with two or three other show biz people like us. Yep. And I I I I got to know Richard closer up then and realized how much there was to him. Um I don't think he was underestimated in any sense. Maybe some people thought If they didn't get it, it was their fault.

Yeah. Certainly not posthumously though. I mean posthumously uh you know, not underestimated in any way, shape or form, but isn't it sad sometimes when that's what it takes uh to make sure that that's realized. Um I there's a clip of you and and and Richard and um this is one of those things that I we didn't get to today, but I'll get to it right now really, really quick. Just There's a comes a point with many broadcasters where the host suddenly uh has found themselves that they are actually bigger than the guests 99% of the time that are in the chair beside them. Uh certainly that is the case with you. It certainly became the case with Dave. Uh there was a part where you asked Richard in an interview, I think it was um It was after the fire for sure, after after he burned himself. But uh you had said something to Richard about something that was in an interview a while back and he was like, "What? Did I Did I say that?" And and and and you kind of gave him another little opportunity to to talk about it.

And then you said something like, "Well, don't leave my ass out here alone, man." Like you you you you really stood up to this giant of comedy and and I'm like, "Okay, there's one of those moments where the host actually Every once in a while the host has to uh uh as Gordie Howe would do, you know, throw an elbow as as uh Gordie Howe would do it. And and I just I loved that when uh when hosts would do that. And that was a moment that I loved. Well, I would I'm I wish I did it a hundred times just for you. Well, with the beauty of YouTube, you did cuz I can watch it over and over again. Steve Allen He was a remarkable uh guy and that that's a dumbest statement. He was extremely smart. Mhm. which made some people in show business not like him because they were aware of how superior he was, I think. But Steve Allen was one of the treasures of a Somebody should put together a a a a tribute show to the to him. Um What was it I remember once?

Oh. His ad-libs were genius. This may not be the greatest one, but he was in the audience with a hand mic once. And he gave a mic to some lady and he said, "Are you a good person? Do you do good things?" And she said, "Well, I always eat my greens." And he said, "You must be very popular on the golf course." And that's good. Steve Allen That is if there's one thing that himself, you, whether you like it or not, you are in that category, and then of course, you know, who might be the king of them is David Letterman. It's the It's the the rapid-fire response that is rapier-like in its in its in its wit and and and and humor and all of that. And just It astounds me. If there's a gift that you gentlemen and others, of course, but have that I could ever transfer, that would be the one, despite your athletic ability. Jack Paar. Want me to re-summarize Jack Paar? Couple words. Just couple words. First couple words that come to your mind.

Just to be refreshing, but well, I I don't think I I almost could say I never missed a Jack Paar show that was broadcast in my lifetime. I was so hooked on Jack Paar. And as an out-of-work actor, the only thing that kept me going when I was making the rounds and leaving a casting director's office and hearing my 8 by 10 hit the wastebasket, and uh I could go home and look forward to the Jack Paar at night. And that was so wonderful, so wonderful. Jack Paar. That is how I and a a of uh people feel about David Letterman, which is the whole reason this show exists. We're going to finish off with, predictably, David Letterman. Letterman's overrated. Are we Are we uh Are we on the air? Oh, yeah. This is great. This is great. Yeah. There there was a time where I thought, am I the only one who knows about this guy when I first saw him? Yeah. I thought, I got to tell everybody to watch for David Letterman. He's going to go places.

Yep. Shrewd on my part, eh? That I was able to discern talent in David Letterman. What could be easier? He's a Absolutely. He's a giant. Yep. Um without a doubt. Uh it takes one to know one, sir. one of the oddest people I ever met. Oh, yeah? Most neurotic. One of the most difficult in many ways. You're talking about Jack here. Jack Paar? You're talking about Jack here? Jack Paar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Jack Paar, yeah. Yeah. Uh odd, neurotic, touchy, um and yet such a mind ma- such a mountain of talent, such a His ad-libs still occur to me sometimes years later. Uh one night he had Jackie Leonard on. To the young folks, Jackie Leonard was a rather fat insult comic with a rapid delivery. And Jack, in a mean, interesting, funny way, said, "Dick, tonight we got Jack Fat Jack on the show. You know how you Whatever you say, he comes right back at you, and then you have to say something to him so he can come back at you again, and you have to say something, and he comes right back at you again. Tonight, I'm just going to sit silently and stare at him.

Fat Jack came on and he said, "You know, I don't know, God, I've lost more than weight than you are." And he said, "Well, what's your wife's name?" And then there's this staccato delivery of his. And Jack didn't say anything. And Leonard started to sweat. The im- indomitable Jackie Leonard suddenly was scared. It was a strange, almost sad thing to watch. And finally, the silence was still going on, and Leonard, in desperation, just reached for a fact and said the fact. And the fact was, "You know, my wife is an acrobat." And Jack said, "She'd have to be." And that That was That was Jack at his best. Or anybody's best. Yeah, we've had Goodnight, everybody. That's I can't think of a better way um to end this first conversation. You heard it here first, everybody. There's going to be a potential second one, and and and um Dick, I just cannot thank you enough.

So you So um you inspired the guy that I just absolutely idolize as a broadcaster, and and of course you are one that I would put in the same category. Um I cannot thank you enough for everything that you have contributed to the world of And think about this, pop culture, you think about social issues, uh entertainment, of course. Um but and you the way that you have done it in an authentic fashion. The one thing about you that I loved uh is your authenticity more than I would probably put that higher than anything um in in in in the conversations that you have had with people. I love long form. Uh the YouTube clips are great, don't get me wrong, but the thing that really gets me going is long-form. You, sir, uh might be um you know, the top of the heap when it comes to long-form. I cannot thank you enough for the body of work that you have given to the world. Thank you for being you, and thank you for coming here today to talk to someone like me. I cannot thank you enough, Dick.

Would you mind repeating all that again? Sure. Sure. Absolutely. That was That was one of the best moments of my life. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um I'm going to I'm going to do a real quick uh goodbye right here, and then we'll say our goodbye privately. So, just just stay here for one moment, please. Okay. Um uh boy, oh boy, I think I don't think that uh um I don't think it's any secret that this has been an absolute thrill for me, one of the greatest uh certainly one of the greatest moments of my, you know, fledgling uh broadcasting endeavor, that is the Letterman podcast. This has been uh another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisholm. Coincidentally, I am Mike Chisholm. Thank you, and good night. Overcoat and underpants.