Allison Lips is a Millenial Television Historian That Is Sweet On Television That Premiered Before She Was Born

you're watching the letman podcast with Mike chisen endorsed by the hello Deli yeah welcome once again to the Letterman podcast my name is Mike chis I'm so excited about this episode because it's a member from the community and and uh from the very beginning one of the things we've wanted to do with this show is assemble a community of folks like-minded folks who enjoy uh this stuff as much as we do talking about the different perspectives the memories uh and going through some of this amazing amazing material put out by David Letterman and Company now this member of the community um is being featured on the show because she's a TV historian and and she has an incredible perspective because she's a millenn she's she's a millennial she's in her early 30s a gal loves this stuff as much as every uh Die Hard fan there is out there came to the party differently uh because she was not even born for a lot of these things that we love so much and and I just appreciate her name is Allison lips real name not a stage name Allison lips and uh she has gone and um become a historian about all things television um specialized in certain areas we get into the stuff that she is she's specialized in and and and uh in her research and and things that she's taught she's taught this stuff at University it's unbelievable she's work gonna gonna get a PhD she will be Dr lips at some point very cool talking to her but she has a soft spot um in in what she adores for late night Conan O'Brien was her was her Gateway into this thing also stories of Johnny Carson from her father and I just really she and I have gone back and forth many many times in the background and I just thought you know what it'd be great to have you on the show because your perspective is so uh different the whole thing about this the Letterman podcast is to have that transfer of Knowledge from the different generations and and we want to be a conduit to transfer the knowledge of what Dave and Company did to Future Generations Allison is doing that and uh I just really appreciate her and her taking time to come and do this and uh and actually put a recorder on to the conversations that we have uh off off camera uh quite a bit and I just appreciate her very very much so let's get to it shall we the Letterman podcast proud to present TV historian Allison lips Allison the first question that I have for you we're going to get into how you got into this uh but but being a historian and academic H who has focused on television the impact the history you're a millennial you're in your early 30s as we record this you're a woman I am fascinated to know your perspective on things um you've taught this stuff at a at a university level let's go right there and then we'll kind of unravel the whole thing from from this point what what what have you taught uh when it comes to television history um and do you love doing it do love doing it I have taught TV history of the 60s and the 70s due to the way that class was formatted I snuck in a little bit of the 50s and prior to it because my class wasn't a requirement so you could skip the 50s in order to get into the 60s and 70s but TV history Builds on each other which is why it is so important to know what came before I got into this because growing up I would listen to my dad tell stories about Johnny yeah which led me to watch The Tonight Show because I'm like The Tonight Show is The Tonight Show so that means I'm gonna watch jayleno by the time I was in Middle School I started figuring out like okay maybe not for me because I'm a Conan person so when I discover someone I'm like I need to find out what their influences are right with Conan led me to Dave where I'm like okay Letterman's still on I can watch Letterman on Friday nights because school the next day because you're what I'm sorry what was that because you're because you're a middle school student at this point as these Revelations are kind of popping in your head you're you're young you're you're you're you're 13 years old kind of a thing exactly and I was reading TV Squad which no longer exists it was acquired by AOL y so the kers I believe was their last name they had a big influence I was reading their stuff and I would even comment occasionally on their posts but yeah I was in Middle School and started watching these shows religiously what was your dream job in middle school I just think this is precious what was your dream job when you were in middle school I wanted to be a journalist when I because of the 2000 election fascinated me and then there were various times when I'm like I want to be a standup comedian I wna be a broadcast journalist I want to be a late night talk show host which I think every late night fanatic is like that'd be cool yep yeah but there's a particular company you wanted to work for that I happen to know there you go some kids want to be a firefighter you wanted to work for the neelen company yes because the neelson ratings were my sports scores so some people stay up and see what the spread was last night because they want to see who's going to the Super Bowl I wanted to know who was in the top 10 in the neelon ratings each week because that I found exciting obviously with internet and people watching a million different things it's less important now so that's sort of faded because we now measure things different differently yep but at that time that was it okay so you're in middle school you're uh you're for lack of a better term a TV nerd you just you love this stuff you go down the rabbit hole you want to know uh what's going on behind the curtain on the business side of things uh but also the cultural significance that kind of leads you to Academia where um you basically if I have it right you kind of inhaled as much uh the journal ISM was a was was was perhaps an application where you can have a real a real person job um but but you tried to inhale as much television um studies that were available in university is that a is that a fair statement I went to University mostly formed believe it or not because I grew up watching TV Land and Nick at night at a time when they showed old shows whereas now it's a lot of stuff from the 80s and the 90s yep even the 2000s because Nick and KN just shows friends nowadays yep so it was a lot of finding things on my own I like to say if it wasn't for the internet I'd be a completely different person because I was watching clips on YouTube um I think it's what DTV is another fan site yep with a ton of clips I I think I said reading Wikipedia but reading any news site about TV that I could yep so I was familiar with Bill Carter before because again if you're a late night person the first thing you find out after it's like okay the big players are Johnny David Letterman Jay Leno modern times Conan O'Brien once you go down that rabbit hole you're like Steve Allen and then you're like okay but I got to read The Late Shift Y and if you're coming into this now you have to read the read the war for late night as well well and and let's get to that part because uh you know and I want to get back to some of the stuff because I am fascinated about you teaching this to people at a university level I'm I'm I'm fascinated about that and and where you're going because at some point you're going to be Dr lips like you're going to get a PhD in this stuff you're you're right now looking at becoming a PhD actually before we mooved to 2010 because because that's where we're going to really dive into this um you know and and and your formative years were late shift 2 that was that was where one of the things that that that uh uh you know strapped a rocket to this passion that you had was your formative years was during late night too and you paid attention like crazy I love your perspective on that we're going to get to that but I want to talk a little bit about the university side of things because I think a lot of folks who do have interests in this myself included um struggle with perhaps a a stigma I I don't know maybe if stigma is the right word or not but but we don't realize that this stuff actually is taken seriously um in many many levels and and you have gotten to explore that side of it I'm I'm I want to talk about so what university were you at and and what did you teach um in the class like I know you talked about All in the Family for example and you talked about All in the Family to a generation that isn't mine or above it's yours and below to me that is a that's that that right there is fascinating I want to take that and and and kind of um I want to talk to you about how late night as as a genre uh is looked upon differently from the people that you taught versus me who's you know a generation older than you so what university were you at and how did that happen Okay I undergrad I was at Rowan University which is where I eventually ended up teaching because one of my old professors wanted me to teach his class okay who that that was David bony that was David bony okay and let's do the let's do the background of David for everybody else who might not necessarily know uh the New York Post version of Bill Carter would that be a would that be an apt description or not well he's been with NPR for 20 30 years or something like that okay so more NPR okay I would argue no no no but let's let's let's really quickly kind of do his resume a little bit there so people understand who he is and um here's a Wikipedia article it's all there for you to read David being and everybody check him out on Wikipedia that's your that's that's that's your gateway into this thing okay so let's talk about that oh what his Wikipedia page no we don't need to talk about that folks can go up on that but no you in the class I'm I'm super curious so I had him for TV history one and two so TV history one is 360s TV History 2 is 60s and 70s um pre uh so TV history one I had with him and two other professors that is a class where I would go just for the entertainment because those three were amazing together and I would have taken that class as many times as I could I took TV history to that was 60s and 7 my stronger part is the 50s if when it comes to TV y but obviously teaching 60s and 70s I boned up on that I'm also a game show fan So Adam NE NF is someone who I've been following for a while as well of course that ties into Letterman I was watching the Riders on YouTube in high school yep the Riddlers for for for for our viewers who might not necessarily know what the what's the Riddlers and how's the connection to Letterman it is a game show pilot that David Letterman hosted which with a bunch of beist 70s celebrities so the type of people you would find on Match Game and a few who weren't well known enough to make it to match game yep yeah and you're watching that in high school okay yeah continue and that's not a great show I believe if I'm remembering correctly the light breaks in the middle of the pilot sounds like a letterman bit does I also found looking for fun which I know Don took down because someone requested he did but it was an HBO special very dead pan very Letterman um so College I became the like the girl who loves like Letterman and late night and just has this vast amount of knowledge among my peers yeah um obviously B Co is like you're Lear you know what we're learning in class here's your DVDs go watch them because I was hungry for anything I could and because I had already known a lot of the TV history that everyone knows he would give me some of this stuff like The Time Tunnel I think it was The Time Tunnel okay where it's just some bad Sci-Fi show um so that rounded out you know you need the good and the bad when it comes to TV history I also started exploring other countries because I'm like I know enough about the US I need to learn about Canada which we've had some conversations about Australia the UK um Letterman fan very easy to find Harold Schmidt in Germany which is unfortunate because I don't speak German and I'm like I would love that this guy if I spoke German I am learning German but now it's one of those things like I was Finding clips of lman in the 80s now it's finding clips of Harold Schmidt because he retired so let's talk about Harold for a second because I mean people who are are are listening to or watching this show may or may not know who Harold is and I think that that's a really uh he's a he's a very curious interesting um uh footnote when it comes to this stuff a lot of these huge Late Show uh or late night uh show television shows have been par parody imitated whatever you want to call it carbon copied uh the similar formula the S right down to some of the most um you know the teeniest details and then then broadcast in their own country as you know their presentation Harold is kind of the herald of that would he not be he's the he's kind of the the king of the the king of the Heap love Harold because one as Letterman has said he's the guy in Germany who does my show they literally took his late night set and just transported it to Germany then there's also the fact that he has taken bits from Conan and Letterman and that's why I was laughing because it's such a bizarre thing where you're like NBC was suing Dave over intellectual property for stupid pet tricks which they didn't even own like isn't there something in international copyright law where you can't just steal things without paying for them and Harold had a huge run right yeah he's well known in Germany not too familiar with German television but he'd probably be the equivalent to Dave there yeah and and a long time on the air I don't know I you know I should probably look up the to see how many years but yeah it was multiple shows but yes yeah absolutely and then yeah Co copied Dave and Conan and to the point where Conan uh Conan has done you know various bits over the years where he talks about folks who who who who imitate him in various countries and how big he is in different countries and and uh uh you know so the Genesis of that probably is heral I would think I think it's taking it to its logical extreme but we also have to remember that late night TV in its American form yep is a very American format so if you look at the British talk shows like Graham Norton or even the way James Cordon did his it's everyone comes out and we have a party and get drunk and it's great so everyone brings their own flavor to the talk show but because American well specifically United States media is broadcast all over the world everyone gets and I'm in New Jersey so everyone gets our stuff M whether it's good whether it's bad I mean people think New Jersey is like Jersey Shore and I'm like seides my Lo one of my local beaches no we don't like those people those people ruin it for everyone else so television has a huge impact in how people see us and I think late night television is one of those things where you get to see all of those stars in A different light it's uh yeah and and and it's has it always been that way like when you go back and you think of of of of Johnny and Johnny's earlier shows like to me my version of of BigTime show business is different than my father's like I look at I look at Johnny Carson and I I always use the example of guys like Frank Sinatra and and and the biggest stars of the day at that point who would who had come on and it was almost like a celebration of of of yes of of the unattainable of of you know because the internet wasn't there it was a very time and place would that be used as a vehicle for folks to you know get a message other change their image whatever that is back then as well as the way that it is it the same device has it always been the same device or has that evolved over the years I think it's always been where people come and onto a talk show and show you a side they want to see you whether it's participating in a sketch like Betty White and Johnny Carson Tarzan or talking about something they wouldn't otherwise like Hugh Grant on Jay Leno where Jay famously ask him like what the hell were you thinking right so it's always been a platform for celebrities to go and tell us whatever they want us to know whether it's a different side of them or just maintaining that IM image because especially with Steve Allen and Jack Parr those were at a time when like yeah you had the gossip Rags but everyone had carefully manicured images that they projected to everyone else so that people wouldn't think about like yeah like they go home and take a bath like everyone else does but they don't want you thinking about that whereas now especially with social media where like everyone's everyone's more or less the same when it comes down to it but there are people who are living more extravagant Lifestyles or different jobs but there's no illusion of oh they're like so different from me and glamorous when you can wake up and take a selfie without makeup right I want to talk more about the evolution of of of the talk show I want to get into that uh let's go back to the class for one second here uh because the fact the generation gap is fascinating to me part of the reason that I'm called if you want to call it that uh to do this is the transfer of knowledge it's to take the genius stuff that Dave and Company did and and no off position in the genius switch there you go there you go and and and show it to you know Generations that are coming and I've talked about this on the show you know the Genesis of that was you know my daughter-in-law just you know sweet little blonde 24 year- old uh you know shows me this piece of Comedy and and and uh and I'm not going to say who it's from but it's like a direct leav hanging well I just don't want to you know some would call it an homage some would call it a blatant ripoff I'm like you don't understand Dave did this 20-some years ago let me show you know sit her I you know sit her down Johnny stole from I mean Johnny stole from Steve Allen so it's always been that way and one of the things that bugged Steve was that Johnny never attributed it to him in a way that Letterman would be like yeah this was a Steve Allen bit when it came to like the suit of magnets because like or the suit of chips and dip where like Steve Allen was jumping into Vats of jell yep yeah he would say this is I I guess this is I think what Dave would say is I think this was made or not I think uh this was made popular on the Steve Allen Show like things like this were he would actually he would actually throw that out there what are some of the things that uh that Johnny perhaps uh homaged that's being nice carac there we go that's the Silver Bullet when it comes to that car was the question man yeah the question man there you go see and okay this is the part where I like talking about this because maybe some people who are viewing or listening uh might now go down a rabbit hole and and figure some of this out that's that transfer of knowledge right now I'm so curious you're a gal in your your early 30s and you're talking about stuff that my dad's dad watched and that is fascinating to me going back to teaching this stuff um the generation that is go ahead yeah go go in conversations we've had off camera on and on the podcast we've already gone over my interest there fountain pens old TV history and vintage guitar so I'm basically a middle-aged man as it is were you that way when you taught all on the family to people that were younger than you that's the that's the one that so so so you're in David's class you now get the opportunity uh you know to start teaching and and and doing some of these things um you know and then you go to something like All in the Family and you're teaching it to a very different generation with a very different set of values um you and I have talked about this a lot of folks think that that show doesn't age well and yet that show was it was one of the it was it was a cultural phenomenon when it came out and and and and uh even after it had gone off the air people still talk about it I'm talking about it with reverence right now there was a reason that you talked about it in your class uh I want to move that over to late night as well but let's talk about that for a second here what was it like teaching that what were people shocked by the content the the language uh what was considered a joke at that time um were people what did people think of Norman Le in that project I actually had to write an essay about that so that was one of those that we took let them go home and watch and some of them watched it with their parents who obviously were aware of that show they were surprised one of them even said like I'm my mom was surprised you're allowed to show it and it's like it's history it's the 60s and 70s I can show whatever I want as long as it's relevant I mean I snuck in David Letterman on Johnny Carson just because you know what else am I gonna do you invited me on this podcast of course that was gonna happen yeah you yeah you wanted you snuck in some of the stuff that you loved uh so people were actually shocked that you were allowed to see it was there was there outrage was there like because we see this you know this this culture that exists now that wants to kind of erase uh things that have happened and and and and I don't I'm not certain I just came back from France recently and I and I and I I saw you know they got a lot of statues and a lot of paintings and a lot of things that are up that I think if they were available for American consumption uh there's a a growing number of people who would want them destroyed or erased or whatever whereas the French just put a plaque beside it and said exactly what it was depicting and they let culture kind of Judge um you know if that was deplorable or not did you see any of that I think media students are different from the general population because we do study history in depth whether it's history in general or just TV history and have seen the evolution because we also have to talk about Amos and Andy which a lot of people are like that's super racist which it is but it was also the only show on television for years that had a black cast so at that time there was and there was friction between representation and good representation right and at the time any representation was considered good rep representation if you're there now we're like oh could we do something better but we obviously don't have a time machine right well and and and these these uh these growths that happen you know grow I've got a granddaughter right now and she's six years old and she gets growing pains and it's awful because you know she's just in in agony um and and it's just literally her body is just stretching and growing and that's that's that's that's what it is is and I think that culturally we are we're in a place where we're taking note of some of those Growing Pains of the past though not necessarily of where we're at right now perhaps and it's fascinating to me I had a uh I had a person um in my life who is I guess I could describe them as an activist and they were talking about the original Star Trek series and they were talking about how sexist it is and all of these things and I said I looked at them and I said are you are you kidding me I said Kirk kissed a woman a black woman on screen yeah she was wearing a minis skirt don't you understand those miniskirts were a middle finger to what they these people were being told how they could dress it was it was a Liberation thing it wasn't also Lucille Ball was responsible for Star Trek there you go because it's a Desi L production mhm there you go you know you think about that and and and and how rare is it that a woman has that much power in in in in the uh the forward- facing Arts at that time and and I mean there's so it you think about that just the lens of how you view things and it's fascinating to me let's finally move it over what was the impact of David Letterman in the talk show world when it comes to history how did he we so many times people say oh Dave changed the game he deconstructed the talk show and recreated it um you you are somebody who has you know at the very least an expert level of opinion on that particular subject and I'm fascinated to hear your your standpoint on it I don't think he necessarily CH he definitely changed the game but I don't think in the way people tend to State it he is probably the most cynical talk show host up to that point however a lot of his stuff comes from Steve Allen which unfortunately we don't have much of his show but what we do know about it is he was killing an hour and a half of time so he was doing whatever he could to kill time which at the time it's like hey it's cool you're watching on TV and we're able to do that whereas Dave was doing it to subvert the genre because it's like we could do much better things but we're just going to have a monkey drop a camera to a monkey because we can which is subversive in the 80s but in the 50s something like that like the Today Show had um what uh Jay Fred mugs okay I think was his name okay who was monkey a chimp a gorill no he wasn't a gorilla I think he was a chimp who was David um uh oh my God what am I I'm blanking out on his name okay but the first host of the Today's Show had a chimp David Garvey no okay you keep going that I'll find that I'll find that you keep keep going but he had a chimpanzee as his sidekick so yeah and like the Today Show what so there's always been weird things going on at the beginning of TV it was to be experimental at with the with David Letterman on late night it was because look what we can get away with at this hour right so what used to be just throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks became a we're throwing everything at the wall because we just don't care so it was an attitude yes obviously they care a lot if you read anything about Dave it's like oh yeah if that show was not perfect but the way it looks which is why it appeals to college students and even when I was in college people were still discovering him whether it was through me or not because I can talk to friends and they're like yeah I've seen some of his 80s stuff I didn't share them give them a clip okay cool like let's talk um by the way it is shocking to me that you in your early 30s can't immediately pull David gar away the very first Today Show host out of your out of your head that quickly oh my gosh like like like the fact that you even know that is just astounding to me um the impact that Dave made uh on television what do you think David Letterman's greatest uh impact that he has made or how did he evolve what the greatest Evolution or is it is it so vast that you can't because I mean Dave had so many phases in his career in and and what the show was um early on what do you think was his uh was the mark that he made that uh that changed everything that he was subverting the traditional talk show format he may have been using old elements but it was at a time when they weren't necessary because Johnny could do these skits with people so you don't need to throw things off a five-story building and it it's sort of like the early MTV attitude towards talk show y so I think that was his biggest contribution because everyone who came after him was influenced by him in some way Conan has talked about how he was given a list of things to be like or no he wasn't given a list of things but they created a list of things because he didn't want to be a letterman clone yeah so they went sillier and wackier whereas Dave could be silly but it was always with a Detachment yes whereas Conan is all in yeah did well and this here's where we go back to the broadcaster background versus the writer background and of course Dave is a is a phenomenal writer as well and and and I think a lot of the time uh that has been kind of swept under the rug where I think I I've heard of I've heard of times where you know the EM nods are coming and and of course Leo is is is being recognized and and the idea of Dave not being included as one of the writers being it's like no no of course Dave is a WR like he's a writer as well so I don't want to I don't want to diminish that but Conan is a straight up writer Dave is a Dave is broadcaster um that that path Conan was unknown when he took over late night he was a writer on S Night Live people knew him from some iconic Simpsons episode and people were like who is this guy when he got late night yeah rman people knew because he had already guest hosted The Tonight Show and we don't really have guest hosts nowadays I think the closest is whatever the Del show is doing on a weekly basis well Kimmel does it that's the thing one of the things I love about Kimmel right now is is is he's kind of in that phase of his career where he doesn't he gives Zero apps now he's he's he's kind of at that place where you know he takes the summer off and and he and he brings folks in I I I love I love so he he does um the guest host thing and it's it's interesting guest host it's not necessarily aspiring uh talk show hosts or or up incoming Comedians and things like that it's flat out you know Dave Gro hosted the Halloween episode a couple years ago is right he'll he'll he'll bring in um you know celebrities who want to who want to give it a try um which really I don't think is something that was done other than when Dave was off the you know the Late Show did have and this is something I want to do an episode on um multiple episodes because I want to have some of the people who actually you my aspirations are to have Tom Green on here to talk about when he actually got to host late show I mean that's a that's you know um I'm going to leave Bill Cosby on the Shelf I'm not going to necessarily go for that one but um you know that's something that I think is very very interesting um what talk shows I've seen Bill Cosby speak you're not missing much did you see him speak at Rowan yes yeah what was the it was a it was a lecture it was a Martin Luther King Jr Day breakfast and it was a lecture and he was very angry about a lot of things and not necessarily in a way you would expect him to be yeah I don't know how much you followed him and obviously as a white woman I can't really comment on it but he's very much a pick yourself up by the bootstraps kind of guy yep that that's where I'm comfortably it was it funny at all no were people upset about that I don't think so I mean he did autograph some books but you had to like pay for the book through the Barnes & Noble and yeah right right right he had he had a he had a thing set up um yeah but anyway yeah guest hosts in in in these talk shows um was Johnny the first to do that I mean Jack pars sort of did when he walked off I suppose but uh was Johnny the first to have guest hosts Johnny is the first as far as I know I do know that Broadway open house going even before The Tonight Show had Jerry Lester and my Amsterdam rotating between the two and then I'm blanking on one happened but The Tonight Show there was a period of time where there was a rotating host I'm not sure if it was between Steve Allen and Jack par or Jack par and Johnny Carson right where it was like Groucho marks and a bunch of other people who would like host a week yeah uh I I enjoyed when um I I was very saddened when Craig Ferguson left craig I'm a huge huge uh uh admirer of Craig Ferguson but they they did that for a while they had uh when The Late Late Show was roling and changing around they had people who were coming in and and and uh hosting that but that was when Craig was gone I believe I believe that's how it went yes and now we don't even have a Late Late Show it's now after midnight or at yeah it's after midnight at midnight on Comedy Central have you watched very many of those when we had Carter on here I I talked to him a little bit about it uh it was very very new at that point have you watched uh the the offering that Taylor is doing no it's one of those things and we've talked about it I love late night as a genre y I think it is losing relevance I don't watch it religiously obviously I watched Conan on The Tonight Show I watched it yesterday because I don't stay up that late and that was a huge deal yeah but I don't stay up and watch late night religiously anymore I find it more interesting from historical perspective I am one of those people who if something's big I'll watch it on YouTube the next day yep um there's only so many hours in the day and I can't watch all we got four late night talk shows on broadcast TV we've got after midnight we've got the daily show I'm sure there are talk shows on other places Last Week Tonight MH so yeah there's just too many to keep up with and everything splintered in a million different ways which is also something I noticed when I was teaching you noticed that when you were teaching interesting let's talk about that a little bit like you because you were watching it happen real time at that point again Dave many people saying that Dave is the catalyst well I well that was when I was 2020 three maybe okay about two years ago yep um and I was finding that to use an example of something I first had to find out what a given student reference points were okay so for one it was the nanny of all shows where I'm like okay I'm right there with you others they only watched anime and it's like I'm not an anime person y so I like we need to figure this out what is something we've all seen and I think when you say Dave was the Catalyst for this are you talking about when he moved from NBC to CBS and then everyone could get their talk show if they tried hard enough or at least that's how it seems that I mean now you a microphone you can have your own late like you can have your own late night talk show on YouTube because it's a format it's not necessarily tied to the time of day you're preaching to the choir Allison you're you're talking to a guy who who wouldn't have it if it wasn't for for for for this dilution that happened but I think more where where where Dave gets that credit is that um you know Adam Sandler when he's sing his last song for Dave before he left one of the lines in it is you pave the way for every late night show both jimmies should get on their knees and blow you kisses um that was that was the that was the line and and and I know that Dave uh when his when he's you know approached with this subject he rebuffs it just like he ruff's most compliments that he seems to receive um but but there's a lot of folks out there who were inspired and thought that they could do it and and and and at the end of the day when you think about the drain that the drain plug that Dave removed it's it's The Tonight Show the The Tonight Show was was a dominant force it was a dominant Force and and Dave was the first kind of guy and I understand that the landscape was was changing like I understand ution was happening uh with the expansion of channels and cables and network cable networks and and and and satellite networks and things like that but nobody had ever ran part of The Tonight Show and was able to fortify their own Fortress and Dave was the guy who did it he was the guy who who made it happen and that allowed ABC to go well okay are are we going to do something other than Nightline and and and um you know Dave had his 12:30 show on CBS as well like of course with with bringing Tom over and and that state and is still there not as The Late Late Show anymore of course like you mentioned so so I think part of it is also that um where where there can be something on other than the Tonight Show yes and I think the entire late shift situation led to that because Johnny wanted Dave as his success repacement yeah as his successor so that gave Dave legitimacy when he moved over so there were a lot of people who were like okay yeah that it's maybe it's just like you know it's The Tonight Show by a different name kind of thing because Dave did kind of lose some of those edges sand others down and became the host that 11:35 needed not nearly to the point that Leno did and I was watching a podcast blocks I'm don't remember the host with jayleno where he's like yeah I had to become that guy it's a job y uh Jay's a very blue collar person and he looks at it that way which has Le which led to the second leate shift um so I think that helped Dave get on his feet and once that happened you're right then the floodgates opened and they gave almost anyone with talk show like Chevy Chase has lasted a few months Pat s Jack I don't know why you gave him a talk show that was before yeah that was he was he was Dave's predecessor which uh which I enjoy by the way when Dave would make fun of that that was cbs's uh another one of the many attempts that networks would do to to to counter Johnny Pat say Jack was considered the golden child at one point which is just absolutely delightful to think about yeah I yeah I don't know why you I actually have a pat Sage act show mug that's excellent oh that is that is fantastic yes so I may have Areno too I'm I inherited these from someone when they retired so oh that is very very cool I I uh um you talk about you know uh This Moment let's let's we're all over the place but that's okay because that's that's kind of what we do here I want to go back to a moment that you just talked about uh in the past six months we have seen two massive moments in late night as a genre history where we have seen David Letterman come back and guest on Co bear and we saw just the other night uh at the time of this recording Conan O'Brien came back to The Tonight Show now let's go to 2010 for a second here this is your format of years uh Jason Zinman who wrote Letterman the last giant of late night um you know one of the the things he submitted when he was on this show was that folks who were in their formative years when either of those late shifts kind of happened you know where whereas I like to say the cement was still wet um they they they have um AB bond to this stuff in a different way than other people might and and I I really enjoyed that because it made made me think about my reverence for Carter and the late shift and all of that stuff and and I mean I can't my copy of The Late Shift my original paperback that I have pages are falling out of it I've read it so many times it was like a it was like a textbook uh a very entertaining one that was you approach stuff very differently because I've read do you know how many times I've read The Late Shift tell me once one time one time I highly recommend it reading it again it's got some very cool stuff in well I know I read but you've also read yeah go ahead I also read the war for late night as well and I read those back to back so that kind of solidified what everything that went down the first time and I also knew a lot because I had been studying this until since I was in Middle School y but I didn't read the late shift until I was already in college oh that is so fascinating to me uh so 2010 Conan this is another thing that is so interesting to me I can remember you talk about this moment where Letterman goes and ascends and changes and becomes The Tonight Show you know he he he does what it takes to have the 11:30 show The Big Show and and and his version of The Big Show which to me is just absolutely amazing because it combines what my Dad loved about The Tonight Show with what I love about Letterman and kind of puts it into one uh beautiful full um you know Melting Pot that's what that was to me um and and but I had a lot of people in my life who have the same uh exhibit the same behaviors when a band that they love watching you know uh live with 50 people in a room and they have this nearly religious experience seeing these live shows and and they follow them around from small town to small town and suddenly that band gets big suddenly that band is playing Arenas and people don't necessarily uh all come along for the ride when it comes to that as something gets more popular um that happened with Letterman it happened with Conan as well while in 2010 Team Coco you know emerged and and stretched out its wings and went for a fly uh you were you were you were a massive massive Conan fan at that point and you're one of the ones that didn't necessarily enjoy that part of the ride right so for more context I I I was 18 when Conan took over The Tonight Show so Jay Leno stepped down the Friday before my birthday Conan started the day after my 18th birthday there we go yep um so Conan it was announced when I was 13 Conan was getting The Tonight Show in five years which is insane I in a business where you don't know if you're working tomorrow I don't know why you would sign a five-year contract but it was the Allure of the Tonight Show and while I fully believe Conan was the reason why everything went down it is it's sort of like he was digging a hole and everyone else just pushed him in it yeah oh that's an interesting idea okay yep um so yeah I mean I'm probably never gonna be invited on con where I needs a fan yeah uh so that kind of how I was watching it where I'm like first of all Jay was effectively fired from The Tonight Show if you already know who your successor is you know I've been in positions where it's like your boss has your replacement and they're like can you train them and it's like I didn't resign like no I'm not training them like you're so it was one of those things where instead Jay's like I need to protect these jobs so then he got the the um Jay Leno show on at 10 o'clock which was a ridiculous move on NBC's part because 10 p.m.

is usually when you watch your Law and Orders your ERS those type of shows no one wants a talk show at that time like I'm a talk show fan I would not want to watch a talk show at 10: a.m. I mean 10 p.m.

and then there is some validity to Jay's ratings were lower than that hurt the NBC news local news at 11 and then it hurt Conan's ratings more than they already were Conan posted for less than a year he never had time to find his footing yeah had he posted longer he might have won some of us back on the train but instead things went down in such a way that Conan became this martyr and Idol for so many people in my age group as like how the baby boomers are screwing over Millennials and it's like both men involved are boomers like what are you talking about like yes you can argue Conan got screwed but you need to acknowledge the fact that he's not genx he's not a millennial he's a boomer and well I understand everything Conan did and honestly if I was in his position I probably would have made this same move where it's like fine I'm out of here MH I'll figure it out later but at the time it's like people who were never Conan fans are getting worked up in a frenzy about this and it's like I have a hard time talking to some Conan fans now because they only know him from the podcast whereas I grew up with late night I did watch some Conan when he moved to TBS yep which I enjoyed not as much as late night but again when you're watching something in your formative years and I for me there's something magical about the 12 35 times slot on NBC Y where like it attracts a certain type of person and I'm the person who likes those hosts I mean Seth Meyers has gone in a different direction because he came from Weekend Update he's not a writer like Letterman and Conan are well he is but he's a different type of writer I should say yep so he has his desal log which is different from a monologue and Conan is a very physical comedian even when he's doing the monologue so for me the podcast doesn't do it because I need to see it and you want to see those gangly limbs doing things yeah I mean I could live without the string dance but yeah um let's talk about the okay so so he comes back to The Tonight Show and uh I I want to talk a little and compare a little bit about the how each franchise welcomed back their former standard Bearer um because I think that they were done completely differently Letterman's return to colar I think was a stark contrast to how Conan was was was brought back on I was I was actually very angry at The Tonight Show when I saw how they brought Conan back partially probably because if I probably wouldn't have been you know angry that way don't get me wrong I thought it was fantastic I thought their exchange was amazing I just wanted more of it I wanted them to Dev the entire show to to to Conan the way that that that Co Baron company devoted the entire uh show that night to Dave uh they didn't do that but you even talk about this gang like like Conan was I thought when Conan came back to The Tonight Show for me personally I thought for one of the first times oh he's a giant not physically although physically they did talk about that and he did make the set of The Tonight Show look small um yeah so so there's the physical part too but actually I'm like oh Conan's that guy like he's a giant now like he's he's he's transcending in similar ways the way that Johnny did the way that Dave uh did as well I I I thought oh he looks he's huge he looks huge now compared to uh perhaps the last he also gained weight I don't mean physically oh yeah okay sure I don't mean physically like like I'm saying this guy here he's a giant he's a giant now like he he and he hosted late night a late night show for 28 years yeah yeah I don't think we're including the year he was on the um not um legally prohibited from television tour yeah but still he was part of the conversation he got a Twitter account after mocking Twitter and he used that Twitter account to Parlay a whole new um chapter of his career yeah because I I love because he loved the confines he loved the confines of being able to execute like there's a of words and there's there's there's dealing with your stylistic like Letterman has a certain style and and and how he did and one of the things about Dave that's so amazing is that his punch lines aren't necessarily punch lines it's the way it's the Dave delivery and and and and it's that's why it's so hard to imitate uh Conan similarly did that with Twitter because he had these confines and and and his jokes were unbelievable on Twitter that that's a great Point that's it's a really good point I don't think we talk about that enough and I'm one of those people with I like when people are stuck within confines and have to like push against them to get something funny amusing groundbreaking whatever you want to call it rather than on the internet where it's a free-for-all right like you can do whatever you want and like like I said I'm from New Jersey my parents are from Brooklyn like you cursing a ton doesn't phase me that's not groundbreaking right like we now know what favorite words are but that doesn't do anything for me yeah I uh I I I've talked to some of the writers and I've asked that question what do you prefer and I should ask it some more I should actually I should make that a standard question that I ask some of the writers when they come on what do you prefer do you prefer the Wide Open Spaces or do you prefer you know the paddock that you have to figure out your best way to kind of uh that that you get released from and then you have a shoot that you you have to go down in in a pathway that has a that you have to play Within those confines um late night certainly Late Night with David Letterman I should say certainly had that because they wanted to differentiate it from The Tonight Show and so yeah so um but let's go back to con Jay was not doing will it float no Johnny mean Johnny wasn't doing will it float oh well Johnny or Jay they weren't doing will it float yeah no no no that's right that's right they wouldn't do things like that and and and Late Show same thing um you know some of these some of these uh people talk about headlines and how how how you know that was small toown news and and and the moment that other shows start doing some of these things that's where Letterman and Company want to move and try and find something new uh Conan same thing I mean the creativity that he he has is is is um is unparalleled I think I think you're right the output that they had oh go ahead well he took headlines in small town news and made actual items which throughout the entire thing he's like you can't make this up and it's like it's clear made up but that's what made late night so great because it's like can't make it up or like with the year 2000 when the year 2000 was like 10 years ago and like that was hilarious I was so disappointed when they moved to the K show and made it the year 3000 because I'm like the year 2000 was funnier because like we're predicting the future that was 10 years ago oh and it was and you talk about a long a long joke like a like like a joke where you just keep doing the same thing over and over because I remember when the Millennium happened and and and okay now what are they gonna do with it they just kept it like it it became it became a new thing at that point in such a like it's genius the way that they would do that um and and and what we're talking go ahead con Central Time Zone countdowns for the years were also brilliant I'm sad that they don't do that anymore because it would just be something weird and then like Max and Conan would either get really drunk or pretend to be really drunk I'm not really sure what was going on there but it was always entertaining because it was some weird like like was it like Oprah and like someone like just giant heads like making out or like was just weird things like that which you couldn't do at any other hour yeah I uh I I really I I think that uh I'm glad that Conan is getting um the the reverence he does deserve for what he has done and and to me that was evident when he showed back up on The Tonight Show even though it was only two segments and and and um you know it it was similar and the he was he was treated in my in my opinion the same as as as any other guest that's plugging something uh you know like an A-list like he was treated like an A-list an A-list movie star who was plugging something you know given the two segments of course you know the the uh the band did a special theme for him in this case here the Conan's NBC theme which I thought was very very interesting um that excited me that did it did it get you yeah you you liked hearing that did but you also tipped me off to it before oh you didn't know that I I spoiled that for you I'm sorry about that yes you did I'm sorry about that but it was it was cool to it was cool to hear that um what did you think about Conan and Jimmy talking to each other on the set of that show wa first of all it was very obvious that Conan was doing what a lot of comedians do when they go on a talk show where it's they basically do a stand-up routine sitting down and the host is there just to help them get through it okay I don't know if that's because Jimmy is famously not great at interviews which is why his show is so game heavy but that was what Conan was doing and then I was reading some of the comments and I don't listen to every Conan O'Brien podcast but people were saying oh yeah he told that story on the podcast he did so I was sad that he didn't say something new I appreciate it because I know like I like his acting out and things like that but like if he's telling stories he told on the podcast it's like it really wasn't that big of a deal he is any other celebrity promoting something yeah it's The Tonight Show as he said he hosted it for 10 minutes but he didn't come back as the host of The Tonight Show like yes it was kind of promoted like that but if you actually watched the interview that was not the purpose of it the news coverage of it which we were talking about before was interesting because I live in the New York metropolitan area so wnbc NBC New York is my local station and the way they were covering it was like their Team Coco they were saying he was fired he was ousted and while some element of that is true I'm like he quit pretty much he told NBC I'm not doing what you're asking me to I'm going to choose to leave um for him I mean it's not one of those like Hefty moral questions but for him it kind of was when it came to the tonight Show's Legacy so he felt he had no choice it wasn't he actually got fired similar to David Letterman by the the way when he left NBC right there's a pattern mhm so I thought that was interesting that the local NBC station was buying into the narrative that has been established that isn't 100% accurate I think it's easier to process it when it's like oh yeah he was fired by NBC because people don't like to deal with with Nuance Y and this is a very nuanced thing where NBC Bears most of the blame for the Conan O'Brien Fiasco but Conan set it in motion Jay could have stepped aside and started J Leno's Garage years before which you know like everyone was like just go work on your cars create a car show everyone will be happy if you do that so like yeah it's NBC's fault but no one is blameless I like the way you put that uh Jerry Seinfeld was one of those who who who publicly came out and talked about Carter mentioned this in um in Warf for late night and and I it's been mentioned in other places too but but Jerry came out and said like like what are you doing talking about this I think it's I think it's the fact that it's the reverence for The Tonight Show which has been a sticking point for so many people coming along uh along the way I should say Dave had this reverence for The Tonight Show you know it's not the 11:30 time slot it's it's The Tonight Show and and that was really put to the test during Conan's uh exit because NBC had come back and said well we could still call it the Tonight Show we're just going to put it on at 12:05 and and and all of that and and the idea of this reverence for it and then you got someone on the Seinfeld coming along going hey look you're going to be on TV every single night just ride it out you know Leno's not going to be there forever he's quite a bit older than you all these sorts of things there's two years left on his deal whatever you know just ride it out and and uh you are you you would be in that camp with W you know don't be illusioned by the franchise that is The Tonight Show uh is that is that accurate as a conanan not as a historian I want to be very clear when I say that I agree with Conan's action of leaving the tonight's show because because it in some ways you watch a Tonight Show after your local news you insert Jay Leno in there The Tonight Show Now becomes late night at a half hour earlier yep so it's NBC messing with a schedule that every country has their own variation of it but it's been established by TV conventions since the beginning MH and and that's why you don't put a talk show in prime time yeah people don't expect it there and then you also said the jeno fans who tend to be an older Bunch who are like great now I get to go to bed early which wasn't hoping that case so it's one of those things where I do think Conan was partially was responsible for knocking down like the Domino that made everything else fall mhm but I don't think his decisions after that were wrong like he did what he had to do yeah yeah and and in doing so uh became some would say you know even more po like I remember when the five-year announcement happened and I think it was that year or the year before that he had hosted the emys like I remember when Conan had this electricity buzz it was trouble yeah yeah yes yes and and and and I can certainly remember Dave having that same electricity that just there was there was something there there's a moment and and and and with Dave um you know he seized his moment he left NBC and went and did something bigger and that five years uh with Conan I felt not that the electricity left because I watched Conan like I would watch Dave and Conan um and and my my favorite for me personally my golden age was Dave Conan Craig and and and the nice thing about being on the west coast is my Letterman shows up you know at 8:30 because I could time shift right and so I would be the I would watch Letterman every night my time around 9 9:30 i' would have it on the DVR and I would that's when I would watch Letterman and then I would watch one of the 1230 shows I would watch either Conan or I would watch Ferguson um you know kind of real time and then catch the other one later that was my golden age for me those drew the same type of crowd I never really got into Craig Ferguson yeah but I do appreciate Jeff so like there are aspects of it I do appreciate but I was I was a Conan person and that's who I was going to watch yeah did you like Conan's Tonight Show no there was too much wer L there like I'm not a w open ah okay okay okay um it was very different it felt whereas Letterman grew into that time slot and that type of show it with Conan it felt like they took a lot of things away from him because they weren't appropriate at an earlier hour so he lost some of that that made him special when he moved to c to TBS he got some of it back yep but again intellectual property of NBC you don't get to take everything Conan is now on pretty good terms with NBC because all the people who were involved in that Fiasco have left yep I also think that the tonight CH FAS the late the war for late night had to happen because if that not we wouldn't have Team Coco Conan wouldn't have a podcast Network that was sold to sirius for a billion so Conan came out of this better off than he would had he been the host of The Tonight Show which would have forced him into a very traditional role whereas Conan isn't a traditional talk show host right uh just like David Letterman in some in some respects as well like again that's the similarity that they have right but Dave had reverence for Johnny Yes uh Conan revered Johnny but I think Dave more because there's the story where he says he hitched hike to New York and watched the David Letterman show on the daytime be before it was cancelled so pin's base of a talk show was going off of Letterman so of course it it was starting from something slightly ESC yeah yeah that's a good point uh the Emmy nominated uh David Letterman show by the way and there's the Emmy package that went out to for for one of the Emmys for that they were uh they were nominated for after cancellation which is kind of interesting Bill short sent us that shout out to bill um geez I know it's pretty I love I love having that the late night book your worldwide pants jackets I'm just like oh like I I want a worldwide pants jacket so bad oh well we'll see well oh it's I know people who know people we'll see we'll see we'll see what we can perhaps do uh to make that happen um I could you part of the reason why I wanted to be an intern so I'm like that jacket it's like you've done this before okay so I knew what I was going to finish with um and I knew it was going to be about the intern The Internship you applying for that uh we do I do want to stop this our first I love that you and I are connected I'm so grateful that we did get connected and that we can uh spend hours and hours and hours talking about this stuff uh on the phone this is our first time doing it on camera uh I'm enjoying it very much I hope you are too now let's talk about love this oh good I'm glad to hear that Alison so let's let's let's figure this out because you're you're finding your way in the world figuring out how you can merge the idea of a career and what you love and what you're now an accredited expert at you are you are a legitimate TV historian that's just figuring out what the next step is you've done some podcasting you've done some things where figuring out what uh you know how how you can um execute this uh as best as you possibly can where are ways touched on hold on yeah I don't think we touched on my background completely so I have a my bachelor's from Rowan in journalism and radio TV film my Master's in business from Rutter University yeah I did apply to PHD programs but instead I decided to go back to Rowan and in the fall I'm starting a an MA in television studies okay so Dr lips is still a little bit further down the line yes and that is that is not a stage name lips is the last name and uh I cannot wait for the time that I can call you Dr lips that's G to be that's G to be amazing I still think like if I only went into medicine I could be like a plastic surgeon and that would be my specialty and like it just writes itself it does like like it would be plastic surgeon or porn star like those would be my options if I really took the last name as there's like literally a thing like Sally Ride was an astronaut like yeah where your last name tells you what you did yeah I'm a gigantic Los Angeles Kings fan and the the the year that we won the Stanley Cup Jonathan Quick was our goenda you''ve you've done some podcasting you've you've you've you've you've gone into this world a little bit what are some of the things that you have done what are some of the the aspirations you potentially have uh how can people find you that's another that's another thing too is is you're fascinating to to to get the perspective of and and again are nothing short of an expert same like like Adam nef um you know when it comes to game shows you are certainly that when it comes to television history and I appreciate that about you what are some ways that people can uh can find you the recovering digital marketer kind of wouldn't say embarrassing because it's setting boundaries but it's a little odd where you can find me a Michelle no that's my email I mean you can email me but my Twitter account is Allison M lips which I don't update that ever unless I have a pop break article yep going out which is the pop break.com I recently interviewed Hannah forcier who is a lifestyle content creator because at Pop break I am the Digital Trends editor so I follow what goes on online which again I have to choose so that's why late night takes the back burner and like you said I'm a historian so I pay attention to what's going on now but I'm really diving deep into the history and seeing how were people reacting to things at that time and how are they perceived now mhm so what do you want to do I want to teach at the University which is why I'm getting a PhD but there's no money in that yeah I'm aware that's a huge investment both time and money and there's no money in that Y what I would love to do is do more like podcasting writing about television history in a way where it makes it relevant to people who aren't obsessed with this type of stuff one of the things that I've noticed is there is a huge lack of media literacy especially in the United States and with Facebook and Instagram and Tik Tok it's a cliche but the algorithms put you in a bubble and feed you what you want yep um so that is why my feed on Facebook is cat photos and videos the all.

Letterman Group which predates me yep literally literally yeah it was former uset Group which I knew it was a using that group before it shifted to Facebook yep which again one of those like weird things that I know because I got into this at a very young age and the internet was there and I used it my dad was a computer programmer so I was on the computer from the age of three and like as an eight-year-old I was looking up like jokes on AOL so child appropriate jokes some Bob Hope Milton Burl slip through so that's also an introduction because of all the little things and I was paying attention yep and I would like to either write a book like Adam NF does um start a podcast similar to this because I have done pop break Goes to Washington yeah which was about political movies and what their impact was and how they are perceived now with the benefit of hindsight yep um I've also done a few guest spots on the anniversary Brothers podcast if you're interested in HBO The Magic School Bus was it the Magic School Bus no I think we talked about the Magic School Bus definitely okay wow no it was um Bill NY the Science Guy another PDS show I grew up watching y Match Game yep um late night and game shows and children's television are my three main areas I love sitcom dramas I'm not as strong but again late night not a hard thing with sitcoms um Mary Hartman Mary Hartman's been on my to watch list forever yep I finally got those DVDs so yeah you can find me at the pop break you can find me on Facebook you can find me on Twitter LinkedIn if you want me to write for you you want to hook up that way yep find me at LinkedIn Alison lips the one who went to Rowan and Ruckers that's me wait hold on hold on there's another Allison lips there are multiple Alison lipes well there you go all right there's another one who spells it like me we have a m different middle name and then there's one with two P's in their last name okay well there it is and and uh um let's finish off by talking about you know know you you you obsessed with you you started with Conan Conan might have been your gateway drug but then you shifted over to Letterman um in in in many respects to safe to say that that's the case right say both of them but yeah Letterman in many respects and I think part of that was because I discovered Conan when I was 10 yeah and then my parents put it on because they were sick of Nickelodeon and it the Late Night with K O'Brien show was in many ways very similar to Nickelodeon at that time yep but with more adult jokes obviously sure so my parents put it on when it was running on Comedy Central because they were sick of me watching the melodeon and they're like this is Conan O'Brien she might like it they didn't know I had already been watching him for like six months on they were on CMB he was on CNBC as well right yes he was yeah um okay so then you went and you took your shot and I want to I just want to ask ask you about that because I'm fascinated with the interns uh you know we did our intern summer series last year and the Letterman podcast I've got a few interns lined up that are going to come on the show you you went and took your shot you didn't you didn't make it but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take you at least took your shot you tried and you had the interview right talk about your wanting to applied so I applied to be an intern I made it to the top 50 but they're like we've decided not to interview you try again next year yep but that was between my Junior and Senior year so next year would have been a after I graduated which they I knew someone who did that but they weren't allowing that anymore so that meant I had to go apply to the page program which I had friend of a friend got me in I had that interview and I completely bombed it I showed up way too early I am such a fan as you can tell but trying to play it cool it sounded like I had never seen an episode of late night or yeah of The Late Show before when in fact I had seen a good chunk of late night years of The Late Show y but there are things when you're applying for a job you don't tell people like I had school projects that I use Letterman as a basis of and things like that where I'm like no that doesn't sound normal so I was just very much like yeah I'm a huge dayve fan and I believe it was Janine was like so have you seen the show L Janice Janice Janice J sorry Janice don't be don't be I just yeah yeah Janice who is like oh so have you seen the show live and I'm like no unfortunately I haven't had the chance to um I think I explained the situation it was one of those things where it was just never meant to be yeah um so like I walked out knowing that knowing like it this was not this was not good like I felt so bad because I felt like I let the person who got me the interview down um because try I play made I played it so cool where I came off as detached right also you don't show up like an hour and a half early to an interview you just don't yep but I was commuting from New Jersey into New York and traffic could be no traffic it's an hour and a half traffic I've already taking three hours to get into the city yeah well just ask Jerry Mulligan about that he'll tell you some stories about getting to the commute from Jersey to the to the show you were also telling me that that day there was a weird mood on the place yeah I like stopped into the hello Deli and got a cinnamon bun or a honey bun or something like rert seemed like he was having a bad day okay and then I went up super early because I didn't know what else to do and then I'm like sitting and then I see Allan Ted talking to someone and Allan wasn't having a good day either a rare bad day for Alan calter yeah so I'm just like okay like I get like it was definitely just not meant to be yeah um which I'm fine with because I don't know what would have happened like that could have completely destroyed my like love for the show because I I know the interns worked long hours I the pages got paid like $10 an hour at that time MH so half my money would have been going to the bus into the city yep um and it was just not just not meant to be I didn't end up working in production I'm more of a writer historian my day job is data analysis for an advertising company which again goes back to Neon yeah I'm one of those people who was very fortunate to had an idea of what they wanted to do when they were younger yep but things H me to like different aspects of it so if you look at my resume you have to like piece together how it makes sense which it does once you talk to me but if you look at it you're like you've done so many different things yeah but they all they all feed are pieces to the puzzle that feed like you said it captivated me when you told me that your dream job would was to be at NE Neel at the neelon r like like that to me is is so and so to me yeah so go into marketing like to to me that makes sense or digital marketing I should say that that there's a through line there as to how you can somehow some way take a a kernel of your passion and turn it into something that you can you can you can monetize or whatever um I see I see things for you though just because of your perspective because of your deep knowledge um that that you have for this stuff and I mean you you have done such a good job today of kind of scratching the surface compared to where your mind can go because you go deep and and I appreciate that about you how deep um and Rich you know this stuff and and I'm kind of in awe of it because you have I've seen it from not just an academic standpoint uh but also because you have passion for this stuff at your age it's it's phenomenal and I'm really grateful that you're around because uh you know when when some of us older folks are you're going to be the one that's still around remembering this stuff and and and and um having you have the same desire that I do that you want to transfer this knowledge so I'm I'm glad that you're walking around on the planet Allon and I just I love talking to you I just I love our Rapport me too thank you for having me yeah no this has been a lot of fun I'll do a really quick outro and then uh we'll say our goodbye privately if that's okay with you yeah all right I appreciate that um there we go and and you know I just want to say since this uh the Letterman podcast has began it has been so much fun with the folks who have reached out and love to go deep on this stuff with me and I mean there's a whole bunch of you that I that that I've done this with uh where where we just you know we'll go off and and and and and go back and forth on some of this stuff and and talk about the impact that this has made on our lives it's it's a lot of fun one of the things that we wanted to say unabashedly from the very beginning was we wanted to build a community and it's really cool watching the evolution of that community uh my my friendship with Allison being one of those uh one of those those things and and seeing what she is doing Adam neita same thing I just appreciate the PE folks out there who are so thoughtful about this stuff and want to also um translate this history and and and transfer it to other people it's it's a lot of fun um the hello the Letterman podcast has one sponsor one sponsor only that is hello Dash deli.com rer G may not own the hello Deli anymore but hellodd deli.com is still running strong get yourself a late show with David Letterman mug get yourself a late show with David Letterman hat shirt whatever it is go to hello- deli.com and uh get you or a family member or a friend a piece of uh Late Show with David Letterman merchandise this has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum coincidentally I am Mike Chisum thank you and good night