Love Johnny Carson Is A Bestseller And Here Is Author Mark Malkoff Part 2!

You're watching the Let him podcast with Mike Chisen, endorsed by the Hello Delhi.

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Hi, welcome to the Letterman podcast. I know you're watching this and going, "That's not Mike Chisum." No, it's not. I'm Darren Cox. I was the first guest on the Letterman podcast. Go back on YouTube and check it out. So, it's worth a hot minute there. Um, apparently 3 years of doing this is the time where you start bringing in guest hosts. So that's why Mike invited me. I think he's at his farm. He's at the ranch. I don't know. He's up in Canada. He's probably playing hockey. He's tired. Okay. He's done a lot of these episodes. And it's time to bring in, if you're going to bring in somebody, bring in somebody who's good, but not so good that they stop wanting to watch you when you come and do your own show regularly. Anyway, Mark Meloff is our very, very, very special guest. And Mike talked to him for a good two and a half hours and split it up into two parts.

And uh I'm not exactly sure if Mike is just like laying in bed reading the book over again because he won't stop talking about how good it is. And that's probably what he's doing. But anyway, I'm here to uh to introduce you to Mark Meloff and we hope that you enjoy part two of this extremely special interview with him because Mark Malov is an amazing author and he's a really good guy and what you should do after you listen to this podcast if you haven't, you need to go out and buy his book. So, here it is. Part two of Mark Malov.

Yeah, I'd like to go into that. That's Pat. Pat McCormick is probably best known for doing that on the show.

Let's let's go back now. Um, sure. A very There was an intruder that showed up on Carson's uh is it the first episode or one of the very early episodes of Carson?

Yes, it was show number one, October, 1960. It was his first interview ever. Johnny's first interview as host of the Tonight Show with Rudy Valley. an audience member came down to the set and nobody stopped them. And um yeah, it was it was definitely one of those things where Johnny kept his cool and it made all the newspapers that this gentleman who was a famous gate crasher who had crashed the Oscars when Bob Hope was was up there and gave him a a fake Oscar cuz Hope had never gotten an Oscar and he got I think arrested after because he snuck into the Oscars and he had was famous for crashing. His name is Stan Berman. who was a cab driver in New York and famous for crashing um JFK's inaugural and got a photo with the Kennedys in the booth.

So, um he disguised him, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. He got arrested. He went to the Waldorf and um yeah, went to the to Queen. He danced with Princess um Grace of Monaco and then he he did ask for the Queen's autograph and got arrested. Um that's when the Queen was still like in her late 20s, I believe. It was a long time ago. And then Burman had a disguise on Stan Berman and Johnny knew that they weren't going to stop tape unless it was like something dire. So he knew that this was going to get on. So he was very calm and he just told Stan Berman and I think he knew who we was that you know we're we're doing something here. So I appreciate it if you would leave but thank you. And was very diplomatic about it and then made a joke about changing the locks or something like that. But um it was defin for the for for a lot of people would have been really thrown off that Johnny kept his cool. Um and and now the the taping would have stopped and they would have edited out but it had gotten into the broadcast, believe it or not.

Yeah, that's uh that's nuts. Um uh another comparison is that sometimes Johnny and Dave cooled on on on people on guests uh that were there and then

you know they would slow down on that. Um, you know, you spend you you do spend uh a lot of time in the book or or you give you give anyway. Uh, you know, every dog has its day. You've given that dog the the the guests who Johnny was hot and heavy with at the beginning and then would cool on or or perhaps a guest did something wrong and then there would be a long break in between. Um, you certainly do talk about that a lot. Brando being one of them. Yeah, but I mean Johnny would have put Brando on all the time except the first time that they had him on was when it was their first trip to New York and Johnny had this idea that they were going to have champagne for the in the green room for the guest and Brando was the last guest. Now now the main guest is the first guest on. But back then wisely so they would sometimes save that for the very end. They made Tiny Tim the wed at the wedding with Tiny Tim. They saved the wedding till the very end so people had to sit through the whole episode. So Brando hour 45 or whatever is just chugging champagne and he comes out wasted. I mean and him and Ja got into it and um it made for good TV.

People liked it and then Brando in ' 68 came on unannounced um to talk about Martin Luther King and donating some money but um yeah and then Johnny tried to get Brando to come back and they talked on the phone and I think Brando wanted to do it um in in n May of92 wanted to come back. I don't know if it was his appearance or whatever, but he I know that they at least spoke um on the phone, but Johnny definitely did tire of people and if people had bad manners and Dave the same way if he perceived that somebody had bad manners, they were gone.

Once in a while they could get back but they would have to the circumstances. I I I know that there I'm thinking of one I don't want to say who the person is, but there's one person that Dave um they they said some things that were off color and Dave um wouldn't have them back on and then they said some really nice things about Dave in the press and Dave had them back on after like three or four years. But Dave expected the same thing. You know, he said to Phoenix, he's like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to come to your your home and chew gum." Carson really did consider that and Dave did that. This is your home. you're a guest and you're there's you you're going to be expected to act a certain way unless you're a Don Rickles where it's like understood that you know you make fun of the guy. Um but I always thought Sean Hayes was hilarious on Dave's show on CBS making fun of Dave like Rickles very much and that he was courageous enough to to do that cuz I think as much as Dave would give that out to other people him and Johnny I think were both you know I think they they they're very sensitive people. I mean, Dave, more than I think people think, but um I always loved that that Sean Hayes did that and that he um I thought he was very brave.

Uh yeah. Well, it's it's threading a needle. And if you thread it, great. If you don't, then you know then then you're in trouble. Uh both Johnny and Dave had uncomfortable conversations with Shirley Mlan.

Oh goodness. Yeah, I talk about that. Um I talk about that in the book. Um

Mlan had written a book. Johnny did not want to book her just cuz he had seen her on other shows and just the whole past lives thing he thought was completely ridiculous. And he Fred Dortiva, there was somebody very powerful that was in Hollywood that was trying to get her booked and Fred Dordova talked Johnny into it. he could be talked into things sometimes. And [snorts] um it was um it was decided that they would have her on and that Johnny um could ask her about the book and and and and express some skepticism, but she was not going to go on unless the talent coordinator had read the book who and they hadn't and luckily they took a speed reading class and they read it in like three hours and convinced Mlan to come on. But the first segment was was not good and she she not the greatest guest. The second one was better, but um I don't know if she came on after that. She might have, but yeah, it was definitely um she was not the easiest. And I know obviously Dave at the on the 12:30 show said the same would say the same thing.

Yeah. Um it's it's fun listening um to all again all those vantage points behind uh on the Carson appearance specifically. again, you you just expertly take I don't I don't know how many sources you would have gone through for that particular story, but it just it's amazing the way that you set it up. Um uh you know, both guys uh had had presidents uh pre-presidential runs. You know, you think about Nixon um on on on Carson, Clinton on Carson. The Clinton the Clinton moment on Carson was actually wonderful. I I just absolutely love that. I love how you go into that story as well. You think about Dave um you know George W. Bush uh uh Barack Obama as well. These are these are before the runs but yet they make these almost like it's almost like they're making announcements or planting a flag at that point. Um and using the late night shows to do that these upandcomers within politics. Uh I thought that was another comparison that I hadn't necessarily made until I read your book.

Yeah, Carson definitely in New York would have sitting politicians on. And then in Burbank, he stopped. He had a rule that he wouldn't do that if they were sitting. The only exception I know is is when Reagan was governor for the anniversary show cuz they had no clips cuz NBC had had erased everything. They had, you know, Jack Benny and Jerry Lewis, all these people in Texas, and they Governor Reagan stopped by for like five minutes just because they wanted they needed a big star. But he wouldn't put anybody on. That's why in um in 1988, everybody to this day thinks that Bill Clinton first played saxophone on a late night show in honors in '92. He played it on Johnny Show in 88. He was booked as a civilian, which is the civilians bookings were people that were not famous. Clinton was so unknown that he was not included in the TV listings of people that were going to be on it. Just a joke cocker in the TV listings around America. He they they were trying to do damage control. Clinton was supposed to speak 15 minutes at the DNC.

Spoke I think 34 minutes. The commentators. Everybody um was um upset and just giving um writing horrible things about Clinton and Johnny was doing monologue jokes about him. And Clinton's friends uh Harry Thomasson and Linda Bworth Thomasson who created uh who worked on Designing Women and a bunch of other TV shows, Evening Shade. Um, Linda, I guess, came up with the idea, we need to get our friend Bill, the governor of Arkansas, booked on Johnny's show to do damage control. And Harry Thomas did all these calls to Fred Decord and like we don't put politicians on sitting politicians. And then finally, he's like, "What happens if he," without even asking Clinton if he would play sex, he said, "What happens if you play saxophone?" And Dortiva is like, "I'm going to call you right back." And Johnny thought that was amazing for a sitting governor to to do that. So, um, yeah, the Associated Press said that Clinton went from like the dog house to the clubhouse instantly. I mean, Clinton said that that Carson appearance did more for his career than almost anything in terms of of um going from somebody that was on the outs to being back in

certainly at that stage. I mean, you know, yeah, like you say, the Arsenio moment um again became sort of iconic iconic when he showed up on MTV. That moment became iconic as well, but Yeah.

But yeah, it started with Johnny and and uh um

again another weird thing uh Robert Shapiro uh the famous lawyer Robert Shapiro uh uh uh defended both Johnny and OJ Simpson uh which I thought was an interesting I thought that was interesting. But it leads to a question. Do you think Johnny would have done OJ jokes?

I don't know. That is a good question. Peter Lasali would have said no. Um I'm not sure. It's interesting to me because Dave wouldn't do the OJ jokes, but I somebody told me I could be off on this. Wasn't he doing Robert Blake jokes or didn't he make fun of Blake a few times? I could be off on that. Um,

but yeah, I don't know. I mean, Nor McDonald could get away with it. I mean, I think Leno was more lambing the ridiculousness of just this of the sensationalism of the trial.

Yes.

Um, but Peter would have said Johnny wouldn't have. I don't know. Johnny was was watching the OJ trial. I know in retirement as much as anybody. Um, but I I don't probably not. I don't know. He might have had to at least address the circus atmosphere. I mean, it was just it' be hard not to at least um address it somehow.

I I always thought that that part of that was the division of of 20 states of distance. You know, you've got New York and then you've got California. uh Leno being in California, it was everywhere around him in a different way than it was over in New York perhaps. And that that might also be a part of it. Carson broadcasting from from for Burbank. I think I think he has to it's the biggest um again people today don't don't realize I don't even know what you'd compare it to now because we have um you know diluted so much and there's so many directions on everything. The OJ trial was what everybody was talking about and everybody was watching it. It was one of those things where everybody was divided watching this thing and um interesting that the Tonight Show went down that path. Uh you know, the dancing eidos and like you say, the sensationalism of it all. Um Letterman saying of course famously, you know, I just don't think double homicide is that funny. Um but then Norm just absolutely lampooning as well. It was it was a very fascinating time um in in pop culture at that point and it it had spread over to pop culture. It wasn't just a criminal thing. It was it was way more than that.

Um, also President Bush was going to uh going to be on the show, but the Rodney King uh that was an interesting uh

that's true. They were going to it was near the end of the the run and Johnny was going to break the rule about sitting president only because President Bush came up with the idea of of um announcing that they were going to give him the was the presidential medal of is it honor? One of those things. they were going to announce it, which Bush eventually did. Um I think that December maybe or some something like that. Um I think that was the the timing and um it was all said and yeah and then the um the OJ trial cuz Ray Siller who was Johnny's headwriter I think for 14 years and I don't wasn't at the show at that point had left was really um good friends with with with with President Bush and Johnny had spent some time with with Herbert Walker Bush. They did this big fundraiser for Bush um in in Malibu near right near where Johnny lived with Jerry Winrap's home in Malibu and it was like every Aless star was there and Johnny got to know um Bush a little bit like that and they became friendly and they talked to um Bush called Johnny the next day from Air Force One and I think that I think Johnny really genuinely did like him.

And it was the Rodney King uh the riots that were happening that that that kept that moment from happening. There were a bunch of people that that got cancelled. I think Robert Klene, Tony Randall. Um, there were a bunch a couple shows. Talked to this one gentleman, Billy Ryback. It was a standup and he was, I guess, was booked to be the last unknown standup and then got the show canceled, Rodney King, and then he calls up the booker, um, Jim Macaulay, famous Jim McCaulay, uh, responsible for so many of the standups, discovering them, and asked if I'm going to be rescheduled. and Jim just laughed at him because I mean it was just like there's only like a month left and it's like

not context of things.

Yeah, it was tough for him.

You bring up Macaulay. Um you're one of the few people that has had a chance to read Jim McCauley's unpublished book.

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

What a what a what a what a treat and a tribute that is.

Lots of Letterman stuff. Lots of Dave.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh gosh. Well, I can't wait to compare some notes. I love when you and I compare notes uh when the camera's off and I love I I love doing that. Um that being said, uh how much of you had this massive uh you know vault of knowledge coming into reading something in my opinion um undiscovered and so uh so fascinating the idea to do that. Um did that did that change um many things for you being able to read that that that that piece?

Oh my goodness. Yeah. getting to read um Jim Macaulay's manuscript was unbelievable. I mean it was all these

revelations about Letterman how he almost after his first time they weren't going to ask him back and the circumstances where they did get him back to guest host hearing that from McCauley and how he really wanted to bring Leno back and Johnny did not want Jay and it just there was a lot of drama. I knew some I knew a little bit but not certainly not to the extent and then McCaulay going into what happened with Joan Rivers. I I I did know Joan contacted all the talent coordinators and offered to double their money that I already knew. I talked to one of them in person who um told me this not on the podcast and I knew that that was a thing people told me. But to hear from Macaulay what actually happened with Rivers, I couldn't believe when I read that. It was um I I I guess it wasn't surprising, but I didn't know the specific details. And I go through the whole Joan Rivers what what happened.

And I, you know, mentioned what her her friends and people that knew her urged Joan, you need to tell Johnny, don't blindside him. And Barry Diller at Fox telling Joan, you have an obligation. you need I want to tell Johnny but Edgar

her husband um Joan's husband was very much like there's going to be unforeseen consequences with Johnny if we tell him and Joan listened uh was loyal to her husband and it affected so much of in a in a bad way. I mean, Johnny would have said to Joan, um, you have my blessing to host the show if she would have gone, but I do, um, want to say I think it's a mistake. And the mistake was, he was right about that you're good every 5 weeks on this show, but to do this every night

is not going to work. And it didn't work. And Dave was having trouble getting guests. Um, and it just was it just ultimately was just didn't work, unfortunately. But Johnny would have been would have been open- with that, but he would have he would have been fine. Um, not probably thrilled to have the competition back and forth, but would have as long as everyone did it the right way. Letterman always treated Carson um with kindness and it was always with everything he did did it the right way and as did a lot of the people

to a fault. It cost him the Tonight Show. He did that because of that politeness and and that true

and great it all worked out but but to

No, that's true. That's a good point. That's an excellent point. But yeah, there were a bunch of people that um did went to Johnny and said, "I have an opportunity." David Browner, Joey Bishop, and Cavitt and right when their shows were cancelled, he'd have them back. So, you know, they would have

so much in the book. I I glad you brought up the Jo I have a whole section here about Joan Rivers and I wanted to say like the way that I want to start that is saying I don't know if there's another piece out there that talks about the Joan Rivers uh Johnny Carson dynamic better than this book. I think this is one of those things where it, you know, there are some things where it adds color to things that we already know and that there are some things in this book that um it takes, in my opinion, takes the lead on the Joan Rivers uh situation being certainly certainly one of them. Um and and and you know, I think you were fair to her. Uh, but you would talk about how the narrative would change after the after the fact after, you know, when she was quote unquote black ballalled by Johnny and how the story would change and evolve and and and and exaggerate or or perhaps um adapt itself and the details would be sort of fluid in the situation. Um, you know, I I thought that was a fascinating fascinating thing uh way that you described that, you know, but I remember when she came back on Dave um on Late Show and and and um you know, the embargo was lifted or whatnot. Maybe everyone's learned a lesson, whatever it is. Uh Joan certainly um learned a lot of lessons going through that situation.

and you um you're very classy in the way that you describe these things. And that's the thing about the tone of the book that I love so much is the optimism and the classiness there. You don't get into the salacious uh details of things and and and and you could these are situations where you easily easily could.

It's a fine line. I just tried to tell the truth in a way that I feel like that there were people over there that that loved Joan that adored Joan on Johnny's show and I I wrote about that and she did so many good things. It's just complicated because you know she's like NBC blackballed me. It's like no you canled on Letterman. Um the she does the Fox press conference. She's booked on Dave's NBC show. Johnny doesn't try to cancel it. She's booked and she she has her people cancel Dave's show and says I'm just not feeling funny. these days. That was her. And then she did a a walk-on I think a couple days later. It was just a brief thing on Dave's NBC show. Y

and then yeah, Johnny never had her back cuz the whole loyalty thing and she even admits she tried to take Peter Lissali Johnny's producer. She did a lot of things. But I mean Con she's like I was banned from NBC late night. No, you did Conan's show multiple times. You did Bob Kostas. Um the whole narrative that NBC some banned ban like Leno banned her that was not Johnny's doing that was Jay

um 100% saying you know I thought Johnny might would want this but that was Johnny I don't think would have cared I mean I do wonder sometimes if I was interviewing Dave Letterman I would ask him if if when he did bring Joan back not that Johnny would care if he asked Dave Johnny's um approval

but I don't I don't think he cared. I really don't. I mean, Wayne Newton was on the and Johnny had problems and um really big problems and Dave had um Wayne on I believe on the NBC show which Johnny produced

and it's like, you know,

that was fascinating, too. The the the the drama that happened between Wayne Newton and Johnny Carson, that was absolutely fascinating. Once there was somebody that Johnny felt like that either betrayed him or did something to him. It was like not at least at least the people I talked to said there was no revenge. It was just they didn't exist anymore. I mean he was so thin skinned. Um Johnny and he would say the critics hurt my feelings. You know anybody that li is a liar that's a public figure. If you have any feel like they those people write bad stuff at you it doesn't hurt. It does. He um basically would just to protect him. I'm sure his self-protective mechanism just they wouldn't exist in his mind and he just you know Rivers Wayne Newton I mean somebody in the audience cuz after the show Dave would take questions before the show talked to the audience. Johnny after the first commercial he wasn't doing his sketch and the audience was was good. He would take questions and somebody asked him about Joan Rivers right after it happened with the press conference and he's like I wish her the best. That's all he would say. And

you know, he never mentioned her that I I'm aware of

on the show and certainly after the show Fox New Fox um removed her as host, he never mentioned her name. I mean, and to the press to my knowledge. Um it just

Yeah, of all the crash and burns in in in in late night history, this one here um one of the most spectacular and perhaps one of the ones that's not uh discussed nearly as much. It was it was a it was a crazy and the way that you described that in the book is is is is phenomenal. Uh, by the way, the the the taking questions after the first uh after the monologue or into the first commercial break, that's something that Jimmy Kimmel has adapted. He he does that at his show now. And I think I'm pretty sure that's a Carson homage that he does that.

Yeah. Um Don Reckles was the one I talked to Jimmy about this. I've only really talked to him once that um Don Ruckles was the one that told Jimmy, "Why are you coming out before the show? It ruins the energy. It's like you're going to be you it's like you're shooting being shot out of a cannon if you don't if the audience sees you for the first time." And then he said that Rick Rickles was absolutely right. The only reason he was coming up before the show was cuz you know Kimmel worships Dave and um wanted to do cuz he knew he knew Letterman did that. So

that was um the reason why

that the alchemy of that like I mean again you know one of my again take my family out of the equation greatest moments of my life was that night of the Q&A right and it became the go row with you about it right

that photo's amazing that that you got signed that um

greatest thing in the world um for for me other than you know the family and and and the real personal stuff that's like that's number one in my life

um and I remember seeing him 10 years earlier

uh you know The thing about that, uh, Rickle's point, there's a couple of parts of the alchemy that are different. First off, it's Paul and the band. You know, okay, if you had Eddie Brill or Alan Coulter come out and do a little bit of a warm-up or whatever, but the band kicking in and turning it into that concert, you didn't need a ton of warm-up the way that, no offense to the the shows now, the warm-up guys have to really get the audience into a frenzy, and they do. Paul and the band did that with one slice stone song or or whatnot, and suddenly it's a party. It's a concert. The energy is way up because that band was the best. They got that energy into that place. And then when Dave came out without the jacket and he had the microphone in the hand attached to a cord, um the energy was at a fevered pitch. And I think it's because Dave by that point the giant already. and and and and um I don't know that other late night hosts could necessarily come in with that much juice just by walking out a little bit different, a little more casual, and the the atmosphere was electric. You could feel it, the the hairs on the back of the neck, pins, and needles, whatever you want to description you want to give it.

I I that's where I believe that that uh

um the difference is between what Sprinkles was talking about. I think the reason Dave came out before the show and I think he's acknowledged this is is one of the the I think the top reason is to know what kind of audience totally he's dealing with. He was Dave um was the audience was like the biggest factor for Dave if they were good or bad and what he had to deal with and he wanted the first thing he did when he would run out when it would come out is whoever the warm-up person was if it was Eddie Bril, Wally Collins, Bill Sheff would say there was a good or a bad audience or they were just okay and if they were bad it was just really hard for Dave to do the show and um you could there was definitely signs that it he was not happy with the audience and the audience was just they were completely oblivious that they were bad um audience and it would it would happen just every so often. Um but yeah, I definitely think that that was more for Dave than anything to know what he has to work with

and that that might be the case. Uh but knowing the audience uh again the two times that I saw it, the audience reaction when he did run out, it was it was it was amazing. Um, also the idea um that the other shows don't necessarily have is the old the Hal Gurnie uh device uh that that that lived on right to the end of the show that I got like again got to be a part of the moment Dave comes out before the monologue starts you know if you're really good we'll get you a jacket cut to me and the audience laughing the audience laughing at like like that the inside joke um I don't think any any show has done it better than Letterman's shows where where where something happened, there was an interaction, something happened there, and then they reference it in the show, whether it's a cut to the old man when Madonna is swearing her head off like a like a sailor, and it's the cut to the old man in the audience or or or different things like that. Uh interactions that happened before the show, I think that was probably also

a big part of why that existed as well.

As long as it got the audience, the instudio audience laughter was the thing Dave thrived on and he needed it. And if he made an inside joke, and people at home not might not get what he's referring to, as long as it gets the audience loud with their laughter and it repeats. I do want to mention I feel like there was so much more electricity when Dave would come out um the early years of CBS and the NBC when he would come out, he wouldn't run out. It would be like this delay. And when there was a delay, it would almost build up the anticipation. like chef would introduce him or whoever um would be and then he would kind of just like strut out or stroll out um and but there would be a bunch of delay and I felt like that was more than just like he just runs out and just sprints out on stage. Um I felt like there was there was more excitement but I mean both are are just different approaches I guess. um as we move to uh like and and as like I'm not even like I haven't even scratched the surface on some of these.

I know I know what that's like.

Yeah, I know you do. I know you do and I appreciate that. So So uh moving into kind of the twilights, the last parts of the career uh of of of both men. Um, you know, Johnny probably set the blueprint for how he ended the Tonight Show. How the the last six weeks, you know, again, I talk about um my favorite book on Letterman is the last days of Letterman is again, love Bill Carter, love that. But but the idea of taking that six weeks and encapsulating it into one book and talk about an optimistic feeling and all of the goodwill and all of that. To me, the last six weeks of Letterman is the best six weeks of any television show of all time. Uh, for me anyway. I I I loved it because it was moving into the culmination all the way to like it almost makes me cry even thinking about it. The love that was put into the montage that Barbara Gains and her team and Randy Gra people put into that amazing montage. Um um

in my opinion the blueprint for that six weeks was Carson and and and the way that Carson left the Tonight Show in many respects. Would you agree with that?

Yeah. I mean a lot of people just coming back to say goodbye for the last time. It was a huge deal when it was like Rickles last time on on D on Dave's show. Um definitely on on Johnny's show, whoever those regular people were. But yeah, I mean I think like they Dave um or Johnny wanted Steve Martin to do Fly Deini which no he had done Martin had done once I think on PBS the great Flyini routine and that Johnny requested Steve Martin do that. So it was a lot of that people coming on for the last time doing really prepared bits like Bob Saget would told me about his what he did did. But yeah to get that the last whatever it is last month last six weeks to get booked was just unreal and and they were saying no to so many people wanted on and I'm sure what happened with Dave you just can't get everybody on. But it was really nice like Johnny had um had um Tony Bennett on with Mel Brooks who were on Johnny's very first show. they did the show together and

there's a a lot of um a lot of that which was great

and the clips and the reminiscing and and and all of that stuff. Um this is where you wish that that that you could you know you wish that YouTube was there um you know to get to get this up. Actually I have a question here u it's it's kind of the it's kind of the um

for somebody who reads this book

um to me it's a gateway. It really really is. And I mean, I was I was there for the end and I remember it and I was fascinated at that time in my teenage years, formative years, all that. But to me, I

I want to watch more Johnny Carson after reading this book. I want to go and see some of these moments and whatnot. They are not nearly as accessible. I don't know if Johnny Carson has a Don Giller. I don't think he does. Um, you know, I I I you know, where is the best place for people who want to dive in deeper and start seeing some of these moments here? Yes, everybody has YouTube. I get that. Um, is it the DVD collection that came out of the video cassettes that came out? Is it the What's the best way to see Carson material for those who do want to take this deep dive and jump into it?

It's really hard. I mean, I guess the DVD is definitely YouTube, but there's so much that's not there. The Paley Center has so much that is not on YouTube that if you're in New York, I highly recommend. I was watching um Shelley Winters get up get um a fight with David Susk and verbally on Johnny's show from 1970. I think it's 1970. It's like, oh my goodness, I can't believe this got on. I had heard about it, but actually to see but they they have a lot. But yeah, I mean I write in the book about Paul Williams and and um George Papard getting into a verbal fight almost culminating and Paul Williams um punching George Papard for calling him a and George was was drunk out of his mind um on that show um episode and I don't think insane like the buildup to get to that was Yeah.

I mean it was anarchy. Johnny um walked off the set. Richard Harris, who was not even on the show, was there supporting his wife and Turkl. Um, so it was just because Johnny just left and then Richard Harris just got on um just took Johnny's place spontaneously. Wasn't even a scheduled guest and then started asking his wife this pre-in questions which Johnny had already asked her. And it was a fascinating television. I mean, Ed McMahon had to sit between the two of them on the couch and it was legit. I mean, when when Chevy chasing and and um Gallagher got and I think that's on YouTube, but when they get when they got in like on each other, it's it's real on Johnny's show and Johnny's just like trying to be Switzerland, stay neutral, but I mean that would happen on on the shows. Not so much um well, today then the guests don't really stay um other than um here in America

anymore, but um yeah, you didn't really see that. I don't I didn't watch a lot of Jay's Tonight Show. I didn't really, but I know other than like Mark Summers and Bert Reynolds, I don't know who else like got into it on Howard Stern and um or not, Robin and Quivers and Linda Ronstat on Leno's show. Um but other than that, very

Bobcat setting the the the set on fire and things like that. But but

sure, but with two guests like sparring um that would happen like Robert Blake and Orson um Wells, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing TV."

Yeah. Um, see these moments like this again,

yeah,

you know, you bringing out these moments and putting them in such such color is is is such a beautiful beautiful part of this book.

Um,

okay. Yeah, I I I know the question I want to ask about this, but I'm not going to quite get there yet. Um there's a moment that you talk about in the book uh where where um you know Johnny was famous for you know didn't want to have a ton of interaction beforehand would just kind of poke his head in the in the in the guest dressing room and say hey how's it going and one of these things uh and and I'll see you I'll see you out there kind of a thing. Um Dave got to do that to Johnny and he called it the happiest moment of his life. Um

he did that was yeah he Dave was like a little kid. Rob Robert Rob Bernett told me it was adorable watching Dave. He'd never seen Dave like that. Just so starruck. Whereas he had seen people act like that around Dave. Yeah.

But to see Dave do that um at Television City in the dressing room before Johnny did that walk on with the Larry Bud Melman top 10. Yeah. Dave said it was the happiest night of his life. I mean it was such a huge deal for for Johnny to go back and say hi to Dave. Yeah. Johnny's whole thing was save it for the air and he if he saw somebody in makeup he'd say hi to them but didn't want to have much interaction just like Dave you want to keep it um just whereas Jay Leno would go and say hi to everybody just uh before the show just wanted to keep it and and people sometimes would criticize Johnny for not saying talking during the commercials or Dave but a lot a lot of it was selfre was Johnny Johnny saving his energy he was tired

saving his energy and two just again if you talk about something during commercial like you it might be way better just if you save it for air and um that was Dave definitely took that um from Johnny Dave took it to a whole new level with not wanting to see people before the show

of course

Johnny ran into them was like hey but Dave I mean unless you were a race car driver um or your last name was Alman or Dre or as in George

yes it wasn't going to happen you were not going to see or

Tom Cruz and and Merryill scrape two people that Dave said hi to. But on CBS before the show, the first time that they were on, um they he did that when I think Tom Cruz's mom was there and wanted to meet Dave, but very very

notable exceptions. Um it's it's more the and and I appreciate the uh the background on all of that. I want to go back to the childlike joy that Dave felt that night of Dave. Yeah.

Did did Johnny have that childlike joy? I'm thinking Jackie Gleason. thinking there's like did did Johnny ever have moments where that childlike joy kind of showed up um later on in his career?

I think probably when he yeah he had like Gleon was a big victory when he was plugging his biography. I think

Audrey Hepin was such a big deal and like he was a kid but he was almost so shy and so in awe that that was hard. I know Steve McQueen and and did the show and Johnny was so nervous and in awe that he ended the interview a little short and McQueen's like Johnny hates me. I would have wanted to do a longer and Johnny had no idea McQueen would have um done the show like that. But I'm guessing like some of the tennis people I know um like Carl Sean Johnny was in awe of um they would go out to dinner. I mean, I don't know anybody. Maybe Dave's pals and stuff that he would have dinner with after the show, but Johnny, if it was Jim Fowler, if it was um yeah, Sean or Paul Erlick who did the population control, he would have dinner with with them um when they were in town a decent amount of the time.

Um where is you wouldn't see that with I mean Johnny had a treasure hunter on from Key West, I forget. Mel Fischer and Johnny during the commercial rare to really talk was like I'd love to come sometime to Key West and he's like come and Johnny actually did that. I can't see Dave with somebody like that being like I'm going to go hang out or spend time with that person. But yeah, Johnny's curiosity um there was a lot of of of that that he was not he was fine if he didn't know somebody like that. if he was interested. There was a magician that did Johnny's show that had never done the show, Paul Girtner, who sent a VHS tape of him doing hand magic. And Johnny Johnny invited him over to his home, had never been on the show. They had never met and it's like, "Come on over and show me some tricks." And Paul was like couldn't believe it. And then he's like, "You should do my show." And they did the show. So if Johnny was curious about something and it got in front of him, he he definitely wanted to meet the person.

Yeah. You talk about that so much like like the interest that [clears throat] he had again getting into postretirement. Um, again, you know, I'm glad we talked about at the beginning, but but it's worth it's worth noting again, um, how enriched his life was, you know, the the safaris and the things that he would do, uh, learning how to how to how to be a boat guy and and and the benefits of it and why it became so important to him and and, um, and again, just, uh, you know, the idea of Carson Productions at that point. Again, there's no roadmap for this stuff. You know, okay, is it a DVD set? How do I do that? like and and and and he was um bashful about doing that. Thought it might be self arrandizing and all these things and here we are you know 25 years later all going I wish you would have taken the entire run and given it to us. Please God there's so much that we can't see that we would love to see and you you showed that here.

Uh his thoughtfulness in retirement a lot of the you know he didn't he wasn't a miserable guy. It wasn't like that. He just wasn't in the public eye and and I think people many times get make that mistake. um some sweetness. Um well, okay, you know what? Let's get to the point where he let's get to the point where he passes away. I'll I'll tell you this. When when I read the sentence, when you wrote the sentence about how he passed away, and I'm getting emotional about it right now, I got emotional.

And I wondered when you wrote that how deep you were into the book. And I wondered when you wrote the sentence about him passing, um did you did you get emotional writing that sentence? I sure felt the emotion in in in in reading it

a little bit. It was when I did the audio book. They asked me to do the audio book and I was talking about Howard Smith's Last Dinner with Johnny and I I couldn't believe it. I was in that booth and I had to stop so many times just like I um verge of tears just choked up and I couldn't get through it. It took they were very patient with me and I didn't see it coming. I really didn't see it coming the last dinner with Johnny and then with him saying goodbye to his friends for the last time and say I love you and they're the big hugs and like this isn't Johnny and he knew he was tell Angie Dickinson being like I didn't know that was Johnny saying goodbye to me and I think those were the things that really that was the hardest thing for me um that section that it didn't happen anything else in the audio book remotely like that and um yeah it that was that was very difficult for me to get through.

It hit me so hard as a reader. Um and and and uh I've read it two or three times. That's one of the sections of the book I've read multiple times already. I mean I'm I'm about halfway through it for the second time fully, but I've read a bunch of the sections multiple times. that one there.

You you you set such a beautiful table that when that when that uh when that final, you know, um offering comes out and you write uh so simply yet beautifully and and going through all of these people's last um you know, moments with him, including in in the hospital like like some of the thing some of the me funny, sad, beautiful, all of it just so beautiful and so thoughtful and and I don't know that somebody who doesn't like Zmy's book I really I I enjoyed Zmy's book because it did come from a from a from a from a fan perspective similar to yours and the the the the optimism is there in that one as well but again way more clinical like way more clinical as and and he's a beautiful writer I mean I

it's just different approach I love Bill different approach for sure and he did

absolutely but this here as far as I'm concerned is the definitive love letter to Johnny.

Oh wow. Like Mark, it really really is. I say that and you know I'm nothing if not it's a bit of an educated opinion. Um you know I know a lot about this stuff and and and the curiosity and the passion. I'm a 10 out of 10 when it comes to that. This blew me away like way Mark. I I just

I'm glad that you thought that. I was tough sometimes to cut some stuff out like my publisher Duden Books who was wonderful. They let me do my thing. I mean, I really thought they were going to cut me down a lot. I mean, I sometimes for like maybe a few people like you, me, and a few people want it's like about 130,000 words. I really do want to put like um some stuff back. I really wish I could have put in. It's just that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it breaks your heart, but you have to let some stuff go here and there. But I feel like I was happy with how uh I told the story, and hopefully people feel the same way. Can't believe um on the October 21st it's finally coming out. Doesn't feel real.

Yeah, this show is going to air the week it comes out. So, I think it's on the Friday. It's coming out on the Tuesday. This will air on the Friday. Um and I don't know if I'll split into two parts.

It's out. Hooray. [laughter]

It's out. Congratulations on the book launch, Mark.

Well, I thank you. [laughter] That was Yeah.

Um here's another thing. Uh let's throw this out there. Afterwards, Johnny passes away. Um, one of the things that just absolutely struck me, he left Jay Leno a car.

According to Jay, Jay told me that it was his childhood car or his dad's car and then Johnny used it and he had gotten it back when they Johnny did a special called Johnny Goes Home. It was early 80s and um I apparently um yeah, Johnny had it lent out to a car museum and Jay told me that whoever when Johnny passed that the museum said that um Johnny wants you to have this. So that was according to Jay.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's it's uh I'll I'll say this uh for whatever people want to say about Jay Leno, all the all the things, you know, this is the Letterman podcast. So, so, so clearly, um, you know, we know where our interests are, if not our aims. Um, I didn't like the I didn't like the narrative out there, um, that that that Johnny hated Jay. And that is there because it's not true. It simply isn't true.

Yeah. People still believe that for whatever reason. I'm not I don't really I guess I Helen Kushnik. Yeah. But Jay, she No, in retirement. Um, yeah, they were they saw each other at the American Teacher Awards. I knew somebody that was there and witnessed. They were just joking around having a good time. Jay, Johnny did not hold anything against Jay. Yeah, he wanted Dave Letterman to get the Tonight Show. Had no say, but um no, he didn't hold anything against Jay. Definitely um his manager. Uh that was definitely tough for Johnny. But

that's the question I want to ask Dave. At [clears throat] one point, Helen managed Dave for a short time. True.

Yeah. I'd be super curious to know because I I think we've talked about this. I've gone down the Jack Rollins path quite quite far. Um, as far as I was I'm concerned, we should still make this documentary. We just just run to a bit of a brick wall.

Jack was unbelievable. I got to meet him once and

yeah,

career-wise, these stories, the the the fascination of these stories to me is just endless. But the idea that that Helen would have repped Dave, I'm super curious as to how that started and ended. Um, both of those things

go on record. I talked to many people that um or at least several people that said really that we Helen could be really nice and really charming. It was just a lot of times when Jay would then would show up the it would it would change

um just for whatever reason it the atmosphere would would change if Jay was there. But um there were definitely people that I talked to that said that she she was she could be lovely and especially as long as somebody didn't um she didn't view somebody competitive with her. But I mean I heard the stories from people. There's a gentleman named Todd Yasui who worked for Leno who was with Helen. I don't think you're going to get a bad word from Todd. He had a great experience with her and I've talked to them. So I I definitely Yeah. I mean the the the the people that had problems with her. It was bad and that but there were definitely I just there were definitely people that I have spoken to that had good things to say as well. And I think that sometimes that's forgotten.

Well and and also the empathy for how a person ends up becoming how they become. It doesn't necessarily excuse the behavior but when you know the backstory of of things and I mean Helen's backstory is is one of uh you know absolute

it's tragic.

Yeah. Yeah. a lot of lot of tragedy there as well. So, I mean that to me that that creates empathy um for the person, not necessarily um you know an endorsement of the behavior, but but yeah, I mean um I I I'm glad that that sort of came out in the book as well. But that being said, the legacy um I believe that Dave took on Johnny's legacy in in in so many beautiful beautiful ways. um from you know continual staff members you know Molland and Barry uh the faxers as my friend Gabe Abson likes to likes to call them sure

backs in [clears throat] these monologue jokes all the time right um

um you know Peter Lasali of course uh legacy pieces like I love I love the Stump the Band history because there's so much more to Dave picking up Stump the Band for Late Show uh when you read this book you realize oh there's some history there with that and it's sort of an inside joke. Dave calling Johnny asking if he can do Stump the Band like like little little tidbits like that. There is so much um rich history that has been added and I know a lot of this rich history by heart a lot of it from the some of these books that I've read. Um here's a question. Do you think uh you think Bushian's going to read the book?

I have no idea. I don't know him at all.

No. Okay.

Um anything that I've never met him. I don't have any desire to it. Just from talking to people that that that um that know Johnny and people that had met him, I just didn't think it was a good fit to ask him to be on the podcast. Not that he would do the podcast. I have no idea. I just had no

desire whatsoever. And what I write in the book is just I've never met the man. No, again, no desire to. It was just what people told me. I mean, I just it's it's according to this person this and I quote them, but I've yeah, I've never um I have no idea about

there's a yinyang to Johnny Carson's books. I believe that this is what we're talking about here.

He said that he's Bushkin did do an interview where he said he's going to be doing another Johnny book about um I think it's the period where he didn't know Johnny, which I don't really understand, but it would be Yeah. up until like I guess Johnny's childhood and then the Navy and um yeah, I don't know if that's going to come out or not, but um we'll see.

Mark, honestly, line them all up. Line all the books up. They And as far as I'm concerned, they will all be measured against this one.

Oh, thank you. You're very nice. It is one of those things.

Hey, it's from the heart. Don't say I'm very nice. I'm not I'm not Hold on. I'm not that guy. Authentic. Completely from the heart. I call it like I see it. Yes, I'm I'm enthusiastic. Yes, I'm curious. When I get into something, I get into it. This book here was a gateway to all of that. Like

that's so nice. I really appreciate it. I do want to say that Bill Z, who I was wonderful to me, did not think his book and told me it would never come out. And I think if Bill didn't get sick. Um yeah, I don't know what how the how the book No, none of us will know what the book would have would have be become. He sure didn't ever foresee it coming out. Um but I think Bill and I took very different approaches. But I just I think that Esquire piece he wrote was the cover with Johnny A 10 years after he retired was wonderful and absolutely um I adore Bill and I think um yeah he's very close to going on my podcast. He would tell people cuz he was sick. He's like I'm doing Malcoff's podcast first and then I'm doing Gilbert Godfred's podcast and um Bill was wonderful to me. But I really do app that means a lot coming from you that you like the book and

not just like love with a capital um and and uh Okay. So, so I'm you're going to come back on the show. You're a friend of the show. All that sort of stuff. Is there anything that we missed? Is there anything that Okay. Other than Okay, the book is out now. By the time this is released, it's been out for a couple of days here. Signed copies available at uh that the Historia bookshop in New York. You can you can order signed copies there.

Um

your local bookstores. Try and support your local bookstores, but it's available everywhere. The audio book is out. Is the audio book out now?

The audio book is out now. I did narrate it. I'm going to be doing some events um by the time this is now. I did a book event in New York City already and I'm going to be doing another New York event that's going to be announced most likely um for November. Going to be in Chicago. I'm going to be in Norfolk, Nebraska. So, I'm going to be a couple different places um with the book, talking about it, signing copies. Um, and yeah, it should be it should be an adventure, especially going to Norfolk, Johnny's um, hometown that I'm going to get. I'm really gonna looking forward to that.

Yeah, there's going to be some beautiful moments that have that have yet to occur that are going to happen for you throughout this grind. And you are a grinder. I don't know somebody who who grinds more than you do. And the promotion of the book is phenomenal. My hope for you um, is that this is the smallest uh, uh, show of any kind that you [laughter] end up on. I I seriously like I I wanna I wanna message Teda and say get him on the view right now. I want to uh I wanna I I want to throw some stuff out to to some of the people who know like I don't know him but I know a lot of people who know Conan. I want to do this on your behalf and say get him on Conan O'Brien. He's a friend. Conan is going to love this book. I mean you know the reverence he has for Johnny. He's going to love this book when it comes into gets into

his Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I I've talked to people over there and the booking with me is not going to happen on his podcast, but it's it's you know, it's one of those things. Maybe eventually it'll get in his hands and he'll like it at least. But I Yeah, it would be great to sit down with him, Conan, and that it's just not in the cards, but we shall see.

I mean, who knows?

It's it's it's absolutely phenomenal. Um, thank you, Mark. Thank you for being my friend. Um, there are times where I feel like uh uh like you tolerate me. Um, and [laughter] I just want to say

Oh, man. No, thank you for that. That's not true.

No, you're the kindest. You're one of the kindest humans I've ever met. Um I do believe that that that that uh there's a few people I've met in my life. Um um actually um Scott Ryan who wrote Last Days of Letterman is this way as well where kindness just always wins the day. I love kindness. I love immersing myself in it.

You are kindness incarnate. Um and and that kindness has absolutely translated. Love Johnny Carson is the book. You got to get it. You got to read it. I'm going to get the audio version as well because I did read it in Mark's voice. I'm flying to Toronto in a couple weeks. Uh that's going to be what I listen to on the flight. Um Mark Malov, you are a gem. You are Thank you so much for everything that you have done for the world of of late night. Um you are every bit as important as as as Bill Carter is. And I say that, you know what I mean when I say that cuz you are every bit as important with what you

What a compliment. I'm grateful. Thank you for having me on and thanks for all your support. Um, this means a lot.

Of course. Of course. And inside late night, uh, late nighter.com.

Oh, yeah. Late nighter. Inside late night.

Make sure, you know, and and oh, one last thing.

Um, couple more episodes of letter of the Carson podcast might be coming out.

Yeah, it looks like we're going to bring some bonus episodes. I might have recorded some by the time this comes out. Maybe they'll be out. But yeah, there are all these people I didn't realize that existed. Um, when I did the podcast, I ended One of the reasons is I ran out of guests. as I thought I did, but we've discovered some people. So, there might be some conversations that come out. But yeah, I've been busy with Inside Late Night on late nighter and um it's been so much fun to do that uh podcast and um but yeah, maybe Cursen podcast, maybe some episodes. We'll see.

Fantastic. Um I'm going to shoot an intro uh for the beginning of this monrocity. I might even split it into two parts so we can get a little bit more

whatever you want to do, man. Yeah, this was so much fun.

That's it's it's great. And by the way, uh I'm going to say it right here on camera.

Sure. You and I need to do something with the Shecky stuff you have.

I know. I know. I've been

I was trying to get um trying to convince um at some point to on um Inside Light Night, but um I can't do it right now, but um I want to do something. We We will. Thank you for reminding me.

Yeah, at some point. This is This is the priority now, but at some point

at some point I get to do, but yeah, I really appreciate all your help and support. I should go to the bathroom now.

Thank you, buddy. This has been a marathon. Um, this is fantastic. Uh, what a way to end. Yes, bathroom breaks for all. This has been another episode of the Letterman podcast with Mike Chisum. Coincidentally, I am Mike Chisum. Thank you and good night.

Was that fun or what? How about that? Mark Maloff. Boy, I swear I could listen to him talk for days and I felt like I have. Anyway, this has been the Letterman podcast brought to you by the there's only one only one person who sponsors this and that is the Hello Deli. So, if you go to hell- deli.com/org underpants and you can order things from Letterman, you can order things from worldwide pants, you can order things from Rupert Cheese, Hello Delhi. Rupert's a good guy. I know him. But they're the only sponsor and we're thrilled to have them as our sponsor. And this concludes this episode of the Letterman podcast. And he will never use me to guest host again. They don't talk to me.

Yeah.

I don't talk to them. Bang. Zoom.

All right.